Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[Big Mouth Nana]

End time events in light of the "shadow of things to come" Col 2:17

Rev 11:1.2 two groups of people separated by their understanding... one group is in the temple worshipping God and the other group is in the outer court.
- when you study the temple.. you learn what goes on and what articles are in the outer court and what goes on in the inner court and the articles that are in there.

Feast of trumpets
- crowning of king
- battle cry
- seven trumpets in Revelation
- two witnesses needed to start the feast
- 10 days... known as the ten days of awe.

Day of Atonement
- at one ment - the wedding - the union of man and God with no sin to separate
- two identical goats - one for God and one called the scapegoat.

Plagues - bowls of wrath

Feast of Tabernacles
- flee to wilderness

nowhere is the rapture hinted at within the feasts.

Just as the Lord came and fulfilled the spring feasts... think about it... 3 1/2 year ministry started off by the voice in the wilderness in the spirit of Elijah..

then the Lord fulfilled the Passover as the passover lamb.. next is First Fruits.. where He is the first fruits of them that are raised from the dead...

then the promise which was fulfilled at Pentecost.. which is the last of the spring time feasts.

So in the same manner we can expect a 3 1/2 year ministry started off by the spirit of Elijah only this time there will be two witnesses. Then the Lord will fulfill the fall feasts.

Half of what will occur will be in the heavenly sanctuary where by faith we will see our Lord married to the shabbat forever... on the Day of Atonement. While that is going on in heaven along with the judgment [everyone's books of life are opened on the feast of trumpets and closed at the end of the Day of Atonement events]

Then the plagues without mercy can pour out on the unrepentent.

The children of God flee to the wilderness and are sheltered in His pavillion under His wings until the Feast of Tabernacles is over...

THe LAst Day, the eighth day, will be the when the trumpets blare and the dead are resurrected and those that are alive will rise and join the raised dead to enjoy the wedding supper with the Lord in His City. They will enjoy a thousand years of rest.. travelling every friday to the City of God for the Shabbat. and living on earth during the week doing what we all should have been doing all along.. tending the garden we call earth.

visionary, do you believe that Christ will return on one of the feast days? I know that the OT was/is prophetic and points to the NT so that is why I am asking.

 

[visionary]

visionary, do you believe that Christ will return on one of the feast days? I know that the OT was/is prophetic and points to the NT so that is why I am asking.

The eighth day of the Feast of Tabernacles.


SUKKOT
The Feast of Tabernacles is a week-long festival. Tabernacles is also known as the Feast of the Ingathering, Feast of the Booths, Sukkoth. The two days following the festival are separate holidays, Shemini Atzeret and Simkhat Torah, but are commonly thought of as part of the Feast of Tabernacles.

THE 8TH GREAT DAY (aka Hoshana Rabbah)
"Shmini Atzeret" is the holiday which is celebrated on the eighth day counting from the beginning of "Sukkot." "Shmini" means the eighth; in general, the number eight symbolizes perfection, as it does in the case of "brit milah," the covenant of circumcision. The brit is performed on the eighth day to "complete," as it were, or to instill the potential for perfection, in the human being.

John 7:37-38 Now on the last day of the festival Hoshana Rabbah (the greatest day), Yeshua stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him keep coming to me and drinking! Whoever puts his trust in me, as the Scripture says, rivers of living water will flow from his inmost being!”

 

[visionary]

No, the day of the Lord happens after the tribulation as well as Christs return....same day.

Yes.

Midnight is an analogy, not that the Lord is actually coming at midnight...1 Thess 5:7 ~ For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. It is basically saying watch and stay awake..keep yourselves ready at any time awake or asleep. You better be ready before you close those eyes at night.
Matt 24:42-42 ~ Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.


Same answers as above...an analogy, not literally at midnight.

on the subject of midnight... there is more to this than an analogy.. there is some literal value to it all.

When the laws of the land go into effect, it is at the stroke of midnight. While men plot, God comes to the rescue at the last moment.

THe eighth day- solemn assembley
Leviticus 23:36
Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.

Joel 1:14
Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,

Job 34:20
In a moment shall they die, and the people shall be troubled at midnight, and pass away: and the mighty shall be taken away without hand.

Matthew 25:6
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Psalm 119:62
At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments.

 

[visionary]

How, on earth, can people continue to say that the catching away is AFTER judgment and wrath have been poured out when the Bible CLEARLY says its BEFORE? By the time Christ physically returns, the trumpet judgments have been poured out, the bowls of wrath have been poured out, the army formed against Christ and all the evil have been destroyed. We are removed BEFORE, BEFORE, BEFORE, BEFORE, BEFORE, BEFORE, BEFORE WRATH! By the time Christ physically returns, there IS NO MORE WRATH to pour out and no one who is evil left to pour it out on!

Therefore, in order for the following passages to be true, we are gathered BEFORE judgment and wrath are poured out, NOT AFTER! "Post-trib" has us going through the trumpets and the bowls and gathered AFTER they are poured out, even as Christ is physically coming to destroy the army formed against him (6th bowl) and all the evil. It's unscriptural!

Just as easily as reading scripture and finding words of encouragement for the believers during the time of trouble, during the tribulation, when all around them is chaos and yet they worship God, no matter how tough it gets.

Psalm 91:7
A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

Psalm 27:5
For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

Psalm 31:20
Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues.

Psalm 9:9
The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.

Psalm 37:39
But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

Deuteronomy 4:30
When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

ok, so define "the tribulation" with Scriptures. It is not the same as the final seven years of the judgment and wrath of God.

Jesus said it happens BEFORE the sun/moon darken in Matt 24 which is the 6th seal of Rev 6.

Jesus said it is the nations rising against nations, famines, taking the gospel to the world BEFORE the end comes. In other words, seals 1-4 which are the four dreadful judgments of God from Ezek 14/Zech 6 are the tribulation and they have been "riding" for nearly 2000 years.

 

[visionary]

ok, so define "the tribulation" with Scriptures. It is not the same as the final seven years of the judgment and wrath of God.

Jesus said it happens BEFORE the sun/moon darken in Matt 24 which is the 6th seal of Rev 6.

Jesus said it is the nations rising against nations, famines, taking the gospel to the world BEFORE the end comes. In other words, seals 1-4 which are the four dreadful judgments of God from Ezek 14/Zech 6 are the tribulation and they have been "riding" for nearly 2000 years.

The seven trumpets are tribulation because God in His mercy is giving His warning again through samples of the plagues to come.. the seven bowls of wrath are judgments without mercy because God know the final condition of men's hearts that He has not sealed.. "and they repented not".

Seals 1-4 are not the dreadful judgments. The seals have more to do with what man does to man til the sixth.

 

[visionary]

The seven trumpets are tribulation because God in His mercy is giving His warning again through samples of the plagues to come.. the seven bowls of wrath are judgments without mercy because God know the final condition of men's hearts that He has not sealed.. "and they repented not".

Seals 1-4 are not the dreadful judgments. The seals have more to do with what man does to man til the sixth. All the trumpets and seals join together at the sixth like a choir singing together on a single note in the final chords of the song.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

The eighth day of the Feast of Tabernacles.


SUKKOT
The Feast of Tabernacles is a week-long festival. Tabernacles is also known as the Feast of the Ingathering, Feast of the Booths, Sukkoth. The two days following the festival are separate holidays, Shemini Atzeret and Simkhat Torah, but are commonly thought of as part of the Feast of Tabernacles.

THE 8TH GREAT DAY (aka Hoshana Rabbah)
"Shmini Atzeret" is the holiday which is celebrated on the eighth day counting from the beginning of "Sukkot." "Shmini" means the eighth; in general, the number eight symbolizes perfection, as it does in the case of "brit milah," the covenant of circumcision. The brit is performed on the eighth day to "complete," as it were, or to instill the potential for perfection, in the human being.

John 7:37-38 Now on the last day of the festival Hoshana Rabbah (the greatest day), Yeshua stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him keep coming to me and drinking! Whoever puts his trust in me, as the Scripture says, rivers of living water will flow from his inmost being!”

Couldn't someone following the Feast of Tabernacles know the day that Christ would return being the 8th day, but just not the year?

 

[Ghost air]

I agree. that requires more study. I refer back up to the verse I quoted above. I agree. that is not my version of post-trib... if you think that way I can relate to the confusion you have over that issue. As I said before that is not my view. Wedding supper comes after the wedding... which I believe we both agree on. Those are two separate events and wedding is first and wedding supper is later.... just like it is today... they do not happen at the same time nor in the same place.

So the point remains and it's a nail in the coffin for the post trib position.

Post Tribbers say that the Lord is coming ONE TIME.

Revealtion 19 describes this coming and its context makes it painfully obvious that it is AFTER the wedding, and AFTER the wrath of God is poured out upon the world.

So if the post tribbers agree that Rev 19 shows us the coming of Christ (and from what I have read, they do), then they must also agree that their view has the body of Christ on earth while the bowls of wrath are being poured out upon the earth, and that in itself is nonsensical.

In addition to that, if the church is on earth (as they claim), then they would miss their own wedding.

I believe that the scriptures are clear in teaching that the bride of Christ is the church.

The reason for all of the confusion (which you mention) is simply because post tribbers generally refuse to acknowledge the difference between the church and Israel.

The remnant of Israel WILL go through the great tribulation as Rev 12 teaches. The Rev says nothing at all about the church going through the tribulation, nor does it teach that the church is on earth while the wrath of God is being poured out upon the earth.

IMO, it's checkmate. Although obviously they will tell us that we're blind and deceived by Satan, they will tell us (without reservation) that they can NOT be wrong in this matter, and that our conscience has been seared with a hot iron.

IMO, the irony is that they're the ones who can't see the contradiction in their own position.

 

[Markus6]

So the point remains and it's a nail in the coffin for the post trib position.

Post Tribbers say that the Lord is coming ONE TIME.

Revealtion 19 describes this coming and its context makes it painfully obvious that it is AFTER the wedding, and AFTER the wrath of God is poured out upon the world.

So if the post tribbers agree that Rev 19 shows us the coming of Christ (and from what I have read, they do), then they must also agree that their view has the body of Christ on earth while the bowls of wrath are being poured out upon the earth, and that in itself is nonsensical.

In addition to that, if the church is on earth (as they claim), then they would miss their own wedding.

I believe that the scriptures are clear in teaching that the bride of Christ is the church.

The reason for all of the confusion (which you mention) is simply because post tribbers generally refuse to acknowledge the difference between the church and Israel.

The remnant of Israel WILL go through the great tribulation as Rev 12 teaches. The Rev says nothing at all about the church going through the tribulation, nor does it teach that the church is on earth while the wrath of God is being poured out upon the earth.

IMO, it's checkmate. Although obviously they will tell us that we're blind and deceived by Satan, they will tell us (without reservation) that they can NOT be wrong in this matter, and that our conscience has been seared with a hot iron.

IMO, the irony is that they're the ones who can't see the contradiction in their own position.

To me it looks like Revelation 19 is about the wedding. Not obviously after it:

6Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:
"Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

I don't agree with the dispensationalist pre-trib position because I don't see two comings of Christ clearly layed out in any one passage. I see different passages that pre-tribbers say relate to two different comings.

 

[Ghost air]

To me it looks like Revelation 19 is about the wedding. Not obviously after it:

So are you suggesting that Christ comes FIRST and then the wedding takes place ? The order is just the opposite. It speaks of the multitude in heaven and that the marriage of the Lamb has come, and that the bride has made herself ready. Then it speaks of Christ coming. That's the simple context.

I don't agree with the dispensationalist pre-trib position because I don't see two comings of Christ clearly layed out in any one passage. I see different passages that pre-tribbers say relate to two different comings.

Then if you believe there is only one coming, and that it is Rev 19, then you must believe that the church is on earth (missing her own wedding) and that the wrath of God is being poured upon the earth while they're on it.

IMO, others here have made it clear that the church is not appointed to wrath, but post tribbers have the bride on earth missing her own wedding and also going through that wrath.

There's nothing in scripture which teaches that from what I can see. But then again, according to post tribbers, I can't see, and my conscience has been seared, and they can't be wrong.

If that sounds like your position, then fine. you're certainly welcome to it.

 

[Markus6]

So are you suggesting that Christ comes FIRST and then the wedding takes place ? The order is just the opposite. It speaks of the multitude in heaven and that the marriage of the Lamb has come, and that the bride has made herself ready. Then it speaks of Christ coming. That's the simple context.

As I see the coming of Christ is the wedding (the wedding obviously being metaphorical for something). The verse does not say that the wedding has happened just that everything is ready for it and then Christ returns.

Then if you believe there is only one coming, and that it is Rev 19, then you must believe that the church is on earth (missing her own wedding) and that the wrath of God is being poured upon the earth while they're on it.

I believe there is only one (second) coming because I have never seen a verse that describes another (third). I only think there are two comings if you put verses from all over the bible into a preconceived framework (dispensationalism).

 

[Ghost air]

As I see the coming of Christ is the wedding (the wedding obviously being metaphorical for something). The verse does not say that the wedding has happened just that everything is ready for it and then Christ returns.

Metaphorical wedding ? Never heard that one. So evidently you do not believe that the Lord's bride is the church of God.

I believe there is only one (second) coming because I have never seen a verse that describes another (third). I only think there are two comings if you put verses from all over the bible into a preconceived framework (dispensationalism).

And that's fine, although again - that view places the church on earth during the bowls of wrath and it means that those members of Christ's body on earth who do go through it, miss their own wedding.

Although if you see the church as a metaphorical bride, then that's a problem in itself.

 

[Ghost air]

Then there is Rev 21, which speaks of the Lamb's wife coming down out of heaven, and that's AFTER the thousand years.

BUT post tribbers tell us that the church (bride) meets the Lord in the air at His coming (Rev 19) and that they immediately come back to earth ? It contradicts Rev 21 which tells us that the Lamb's wife comes down out of heaven AFTER the millennium.

So there's another nail in the coffin.

 

[Markus6]

Metaphorical wedding ? Never heard that one. So evidently you do not believe that the Lord's bride is the church of God.



And that's fine, although again - that view places the church on earth during the bowls of wrath and it means that those members of Christ's body on earth who do go through it, miss their own wedding.

Although if you see the church as a metaphorical bride, then that's a problem in itself.

Errr, weddings are where a man and a woman join themselves before God and men before consumating the act by sexual intercourse. Not God in human form uniting himself to the body of believers. There will be no church, no procession down the aisle. I will not be wearing a white wedding dress.

 

[Ghost air]

Errr, weddings are where a man and a woman join themselves before God and men before consumating the act by sexual intercourse. Not God in human form uniting himself to the body of believers. There will be no church, no procession down the aisle. I will not be wearing a white wedding dress.

I agree that it's not going to be like an ordinary wedding on earth, although I do believe that the church is literally the bride of Christ, and His wedding will be the most immense event this universe has a privilege to behold. The imagery used in Rev 21 is obviously difficult to wrap our little minds around, although that doesn't mean that it's not real.

Are you suggesting that the church of God is NOT the bride of Christ ?

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

So the point remains and it's a nail in the coffin for the post trib position.

Post Tribbers say that the Lord is coming ONE TIME.

For the church YES. Coming in Rev 21 with the church when the New Jerusalem descends.

Revealtion 19 describes this coming and its context makes it painfully obvious that it is AFTER the wedding, and AFTER the wrath of God is poured out upon the world.

Like I stated before..if you even read it and understood it, we come back with Christ at the end of the wrath to throw the beast and false prophet in the lake of fire.

So if the post tribbers agree that Rev 19 shows us the coming of Christ (and from what I have read, they do), then they must also agree that their view has the body of Christ on earth while the bowls of wrath are being poured out upon the earth, and that in itself is nonsensical.

How could we be here for the bowls of wrath when the wrath starts a few verses after the church being in heaven??? Rev 11:15 ~ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become (present tense)the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:18 ~ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

In addition to that, if the church is on earth (as they claim), then they would miss their own wedding.

The bible doesn't say exactly when the wedding is. We do know that it is sometime after the catching up.

I believe that the scriptures are clear in teaching that the bride of Christ is the church.

No one has disputed this.

The reason for all of the confusion (which you mention) is simply because post tribbers generally refuse to acknowledge the difference between the church and Israel.

We know the difference between the church and Israel. Isreal are the two houses of Jacob and Judah that are saved during the tribulation. It isn't the whole nation of Israel as some believe. The bible is quite clear about this. Evidently you never studied this part of the bible? God changed Jacobs name TO Israel.

The remnant of Israel WILL go through the great tribulation as Rev 12 teaches. The Rev says nothing at all about the church going through the tribulation, nor does it teach that the church is on earth while the wrath of God is being poured out upon the earth.

Yes they sure will, as that is where they are saved is during the tribulation. Oh yes it does say that the church will go through the tribulation. Your problem is that you don't know who the elect are in this verse. They are the church and Israel.. Matt 24:22 ~ And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the ELECT's sake those days shall be shortened. Anyone who belongs to Christ is the elect:
Romans 18:33 ~ Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's ELECT? It is God that justifieth.
Col 3:12-13 ~ Put on therefore, as the ELECT of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Titus 1:1 ~Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's ELECT, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; Paul was the teacher of the Gentiles, not the Jews.
1 Pet 1:2 ~ ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Here are the ones pertaining to Israel:
Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine ELECT, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isaiah 65:9 ~ And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine ELECT shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Luke 18:7 ~ And shall not God avenge his own ELECT, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

IMO, it's checkmate. Although obviously they will tell us that we're blind and deceived by Satan, they will tell us (without reservation) that they can NOT be wrong in this matter, and that our conscience has been seared with a hot iron.

IMO you are correct.

IMO, the irony is that they're the ones who can't see the contradiction in their own position.

There is no contradiction. The only thing that I am not sure of is exactly when the actual marriage supper takes place after the catching up. I'm figuring that it has to be during the 1000 year reign.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

As I see the coming of Christ is the wedding (the wedding obviously being metaphorical for something). The verse does not say that the wedding has happened just that everything is ready for it and then Christ returns.

I believe there is only one (second) coming because I have never seen a verse that describes another (third). I only think there are two comings if you put verses from all over the bible into a preconceived framework (dispensationalism).

You are exactly right Markus, Ghost air has been told this multiple times by multiple people she or he just chooses not to see the obvious

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Errr, weddings are where a man and a woman join themselves before God and men before consumating the act by sexual intercourse. Not God in human form uniting himself to the body of believers. There will be no church, no procession down the aisle. I will not be wearing a white wedding dress.

Exactly the ''Wedding'' is the joining of the church to Christ at the resurrection of the just/ rapture of the saints which occurs at the posttrib 2nd coming.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Exactly the ''Wedding'' is the joining of the church to Christ at the resurrection of the just/ rapture of the saints which occurs at the posttrib 2nd coming.

That is one of the problems that I have been having regarding the wedding. In the natural, the bride walks down the isle to meet the bridegroom at the alter. In this case, the bride..the church go up to meet the bridegroom in the air. Now, in my way of thinking, that is the starting of the wedding. The actual marriage supper that the bible talks about I believe is during the 1000 year reign. Jesus stated at the Last Supper that He would not drink of the fruit of this vine again until I drink it with you new in my Fathers kingdom...Matt 26:29. Evidently this is going to be an actual supper since wine is drank...unless this has a Spiritual meaning. I know He drank wine on earth.