Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[onwingsaseagles]

Exactly the ''Wedding'' is the joining of the church to Christ at the resurrection of the just/ rapture of the saints which occurs at the posttrib 2nd coming.

That is one of the problems that I have been having regarding the wedding. In the natural, the bride walks down the isle to meet the bridegroom at the alter. In this case, the bride..the church go up to meet the bridegroom in the air. Now, in my way of thinking, that is the starting of the wedding. The actual marriage supper that the bible talks about I believe is during the 1000 year reign. Jesus stated at the Last Supper that He would not drink of the fruit of this vine again until I drink it with you anew in the kingdom of God. Evidently this is going to be an actual supper since wine is drank...unless this has a Spiritual meaning. I know He drank wine on earth.

I agree the wedding supper is after the return here on earth. What I was saying is the ''wedding'' is our being joined to Christ when we meet Him in the air the ''reception'' or Wedding Supper would be after that.

 

[Ghost air]

For the church YES. Coming in Rev 21 with the church when the New Jerusalem descends.

So there's a few problems with this as mentioned. ONE is that the Lord coming in Rev 19 is clearly AFTER the events of the wedding are described, and even if it is not, it is absolutely AFTER the bowls of wrath have been poured out upon the earth. That's not scriptural.

Like I stated before..if you even read it and understood it, we come back with Christ at the end of the wrath to throw the beast and false prophet in the lake of fire.

If I recall correctly Nana, you said that the church is up in the air beginning in Rev 10 (correct me if I mis-state what you said) and that the timing for Rev 10 - 19 is all the same time ?

Look at the length of hoop jumping that you need to go through to make this work for your position. You're telling us that the church is up in the air from Rev 10 and that they meet the Lord in the air in Rev and then turn around and come back to earth ?

And you're telling me that I'm deceived ?

How could we be here for the bowls of wrath when the wrath starts a few verses after the church being in heaven???

Rev 11:15 ~ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become (present tense)the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:18 ~ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So allow me to ask the question which wings had asked me. What in the world are you reading in Rev 10 that makes you believe that the church is up in the air then ? It says nothing about the church being caught up then. Again, why go through these ridiculous hoops just so that you can hold to a position which makes no biblical sense ?

The bible doesn't say exactly when the wedding is. We do know that it is sometime after the catching up.

Rev 19 clearly tells us that the marriage of the Lamb is come and that the bride has made herself ready. Now if you'd like to believe that this means that the marriage of the Lamb HAS NOT come, then you're welcome to that. Why anyone would think that it's the opposite of what it does say is beyond me, although again, have at it if you must.

We know the difference between the church and Israel. Isreal are the two houses of Jacob and Judah that are saved during the tribulation. It isn't the whole nation of Israel as some believe. The bible is quite clear about this. Evidently you never studied this part of the bible? God changed Jacobs name TO Israel.

I know who Israel is, and I also know that there will be twelve tribes of Israel and that there will be those sealed from each of the tribes, just as the Rev and the gospels tell us.

Yes they sure will, as that is where they are saved is during the tribulation. Oh yes it does say that the church will go through the tribulation. Your problem is that you don't know who the elect are in this verse. They are the church and Israel.. Matt 24:22 ~ And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the ELECT's sake those days shall be shortened. Anyone who belongs to Christ is the elect:

Romans 18:33 ~ Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's ELECT? It is God that justifieth.
Col 3:12-13 ~ Put on therefore, as the ELECT of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Titus 1:1 ~Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's ELECT, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; Paul was the teacher of the Gentiles, not the Jews.
1 Pet 1:2 ~ ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Here are the ones pertaining to Israel:
Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine ELECT, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isaiah 65:9 ~ And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine ELECT shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Luke 18:7 ~ And shall not God avenge his own ELECT, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

There's no doubt in my mind that both Israel and the church are in accordance with God's elective purposes, although you continue to believe that Matthew 24 pertains to the church, when its context is clearly Israel. The elect in Matthew 24 pertains to Israel. Tell us Nana - why would it says to those in JUDAEA to flee to the mountains, or to pray that it does not happen on the Sabbath day - if this is written to the church ?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Yes, Matt 24 is definitely about Israel:

Mat 23:34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
Mat 23:35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
Mat 23:38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.




Jesus is speaking of the future events of 70AD in this passage and then in Matt 24, He goes into further detail about it.


Mat 24:9 “Then you (prophets, wise men, teachers) will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
Mat 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
Mat 24:11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Mat 24:12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
Mat 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.




Mat 24:15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel–let the reader understand–
Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Mat 24:17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.
Mat 24:18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.
Mat 24:19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
Mat 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now–and never to be equaled again.
Mat 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect (of Israel) those days will be shortened.


Their nearly 2000 years of dispersal to the nations where they have been mistreated and tossed around ended abruptly in 1945 with the end of WW2 (holocaust = "or else no one would survive") and they were given back Israel and Jerusalem in 1948/1967. We are still within a 70 year generation from that time. If Biblical patterns are any indication, Christ reigns on earth by the end of that 70 year generation.

Mat 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

 

[Ghost air]

So here's another thing that post tribbers say - they say that the wedding is up in the air.

Where's the biblical proof ?

There is none. They must say this because otherwise their entire position falls flat on its face.

There's no alternative for them but to claim this, and that's fine.

And they're calling us deceived ? Go figure huh ;-)

 

[Ghost air]

Of course Matthew 24 is within the context of Israel. It has nothing to do with the church. It's profitable for the church, but it's not about the church.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Of course Matthew 24 is within the context of Israel. It has nothing to do with the church. It's profitable for the church, but it's not about the church.

Evidently you didn't read my post on who the elect are during the tribulation with verses even. That is as plain as it can get for anyone who can understand

 

[onwingsaseagles]

So here's another thing that post tribbers say - they say that the wedding is up in the air.

Where's the biblical proof ?

There is none. They must say this because otherwise their entire position falls flat on its face.

There's no alternative for them but to claim this, and that's fine.

And they're calling us deceived ? Go figure huh ;-)

You are deceived and willfully so.

 

[Ghost air]

Evidently you didn't read my post on who the elect are during the tribulation with verses even. That is as plain as it can get for anyone who can understand

I did read your post - I simply do not attribute scriptures pertaining to Israel to the church as you do.

I agree that the church is God's elect, just as Israel is. But again, if you'd like to continue telling people that Matthew 24 pertains to the church when its context is obviously Israel, then again, have at it.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

You are deceived and willfully so.

Then provide a scripture that says the wedding of the Bride and the Lamb is in the air.

 

[Ghost air]

That's about all post tribbers can do when confronted with the truth of scripture. Deny it and tell us that we are deceived.

Ironic isn't it ?

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

There's no doubt in my mind that both Israel and the church are in accordance with God's elective purposes, although you continue to believe that Matthew 24 pertains to the church, when its context is clearly Israel. The elect in Matthew 24 pertains to Israel. Tell us Nana - why would it says to those in JUDAEA to flee to the mountains, or to pray that it does not happen on the Sabbath day - if this is written to the church ?

You only see the aspect in a pre-trib view which is totally off base. The reason that it says Judea is because the tribulation will be also dealing with Israel. The tribulation is also world wide. The Antichrist sits down in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. The Jews will accept the Antichrist as their Messiah, but He delivers them.The tribulation is a time of what is referred to by the bible as a time of Jacobs trouble when Isreal will finally know who their Messiah is...Jer 30:7 ~"Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it" This happens during the tribulation, and they are saved through it . The tribulation is certainly a time dealing with Israel, but the bible doesn't lie, the elect are the elect and we are the elect as well as they are. By the statement that the the elect are in accordance with Gods elective purposes is a weak statement and refusing to see what the bible actually states who the elect are. You also fail to see that Christ is only coming for the church ONE TIME. He comes back with the church ONE TIME in Rev 21. In Matt 24 he comes in the clouds with the sound of a trumpet. That is the post trib catching away of the saints!!! This can't be explained any clearer. I think that you want to be deceived because it's comfortable for you...go ahead.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The church and Israel have two different "fates" until the New Heavens/New Earth.

Israel was set aside as an adulterous wife for a time, while God brought in "whosoever will" believe (both Jews and Gentiles). The length of that time is mentioned in Hosea.

Hsa 6:1 “Come, let us return to the Lord.
He has torn us to pieces
but he will heal us;
he has injured us
but he will bind up our wounds.
Hsa 6:2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.




The church will be in heaven and Israel will be raised up to govern the nations during the millennium. When the time comes for the GWT judgment, after the millennium, there will then be a New Heavens, New Earth for ALL.


Isa 2:2 In the last days

the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.

Isa 2:3 Many peoples will come and say,

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.





Zec 8:23This is what the Lord Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.' "


The Kingdom on earth will be restored to Israel.

Act 1:6 So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

 

[Ghost air]

I think that you want to be deceived because it's comfortable for you...go ahead.

Another convincing point by the post trib camp... lol

I'd say the same about you although according to you it's impossible for you to be wrong.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Then provide a scripture that says the wedding of the Bride and the Lamb is in the air.

Provide scripture that says that it is in heaven during the tribulation.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I think that you want to be deceived because it's comfortable for you...go ahead.

Another convincing point by the post trib camp... lol

I'd say the same about you

Oh yeah it very comforting believing you will actually have to go through the tribulation. We do not believe it because it is comforting, we believe it because it is what the Bible says.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Oh yeah it very comforting believing you will actually have to go through the tribulation. We do not believe it because it is comforting, we believe it because it is what the Bible says.

WE ARE GOING THROUGH "THE TRIBULATION" RIGHT NOW! (wars, famines, plagues, pestilences and persecution)

It is the seven years of judgment and wrath that we are not appointed to suffer! (the trumpet judgments, the beasts, the bowls which begin after the sun/moon darken)

 

[onwingsaseagles]

WE ARE GOING THROUGH "THE TRIBULATION" RIGHT NOW! (wars, famines, plagues, pestilences and persecution)

It is the seven years of judgment and wrath that we are not appointed to suffer! (the trumpet judgments, the beasts, the bowls which begin after the sun/moon darken)

Once again you will never convince anyone of that, not even your fellow pretribbers, and when you say crazy things like that it invalidates any valid points you may have made in the past.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Once again you will never convince anyone of that, not even your fellow pretribbers, and when you say crazy things like that it invalidates any valid points you may have made in the past.

The scriptures tell us what the tribulation is...Jesus, himself, told us what the tribulation is. I have layed out those scriptures and NO ONE has been able to refute it.

And instead of trying, YOU tell me that I will never convince anyone of that and it's a crazy thing to say.

The problem is, I don't have to convince anyone of that. Everyone has access to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. They don't have to take MY word for it, it's all in the Word of God! The SCRIPTURES speak the TRUTH....not men.

Here is it again, if you'd like to try to refute the Word of God:

#1


Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes–who are they, and where did they come from?”
Rev 7:14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.



The white robed individuals are the bride. "Fine linen, clean and white was given her to wear" (Rev 19) and it happens in the 5th seal.

How long have people been able to be made clean by the blood of the Lamb? ...oh, about 2000 years though belief and acceptance of Jesus!

What does this mean...the washing of robes? It is from this passage which has the rapture written all over it:



Exd 19:10 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow (2 days = 2000 years). Have them wash their clothes
Exd 19:11 and be ready by the third day (millennium), because on that day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.
Exd 19:12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, ‘Be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death.
Exd 19:13 He shall surely be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on him. Whether man or animal, he shall not be permitted to live.’ Only when the ram's horn sounds a long blast may they go up to the mountain.” (aren't we expecting Jesus to appear at the sound of a Jubilee (trumpet) as described here?)
Exd 19:14 After Moses (symbolic of Jesus)had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes.
Exd 19:15 Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”
Exd 19:16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled.
Exd 19:17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain.
Exd 19:18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain trembled violently,
Exd 19:19 and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.
Exd 19:20 The Lord descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain.




WE are expecting to be led "out of the camp" by Jesus, who has consecrated us for the last 2000 years through belief in Him, at the sound of a Jubilee (trumpet) which will take place "on the morning of the 3rd day" (millennium).

Therefore, if those believers in Christ are wearing Bridal Clothes and standing before the throne and the Lamb in heaven having come out of a great tribulation, then "great tribulation" is 2000 years long!





#2

Jesus said in Matt 24 that the tribulation immediately precedes the sun/moon darkening.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:



The sun/moon darken in seal #6 of REv 6. What immediately preceded the darkening? Seals 1-5.

Seal #5 is the giving of Bridal Clothes to the Bride. (glorified bodies/rapture)

Seals 1-4 are what Jesus described in Matt 24 as happening BEFORE the end comes:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (seal #1)

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.

(seals 2-4)



How long have those things been going on for Israel AND for the world?

Since Christ ascended and opened the first four seals before 70AD.


Act 14:22Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.



Rom 8:35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?



Rev 1:9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.





#3

Israel says:

Hsa 6:2After two days (2000 years)will he revive us: in the third day (millennium) he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.


Mic 5:3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.

(Who is in labor? Romans 8/Galations 4)



Luk 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.



Rom 11:25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.



#4

The Good Samaritan Parable.

The Good Samaritan, Jesus, gave the innkeeper two days wages (2 Denarii/2000 years) and then said he would return and recompense. He expected to be gone for two days. (2000 years)

#5


1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.





1Th 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead–Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.



Isa 26:19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
Isa 26:20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
Isa 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.



Psa 75:2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.


Psa 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psa 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.


#6

Seal 1
Seal 2
Seal 3
Seal 4
(seals 1-4 have been going on since Christ ascended and opened the them - 2000 year "tribulation" = wars, famines, plague, pestilence, persecution, martyrdom as well as gospel to all the world)
Seal 5 - rapture (white robes given to the bride)
Seal 6 - signal that day of wrath has begun
Seal 7 = trumpets 1-6, bowls 1-6, trumpet 7/bowl 7 (identical, therefore the same)



The trumpets and bowls, beast, two witnesses are all a part of the 7th seal. The signal as to when WRATH has begun is in Rev 6. WRATH FOLLOWS seal #6 in seal #7....ALL of seal #7.

Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
Rev 6:13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
Rev 6:14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
Rev 6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Rev 6:17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”


Joe 2:31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
******before****** the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

You are the only one that believe the tribulation is the 2,000 year period between the ascension and return of Christ and I have refuted it many times, and can do so with one solitary scripture Matthew 24:21. If what you call the wrath is worse than what you call the tribulation this verse and your theory cannot both be true. I will believe God's word over your theory.

 

[gwynedd1]

That has already fulfilled in my view and is symbolizing the Jew's Messiah. Here is the translation from the Hebrew. It harmonized perfectly with Mark 6:56

Zechariah 8:23 Thus He-says YHWH-of Hosts: "in-Days, the-they, which they-shall-take-firm-hold a-hem/wing, ten mortals, from-all-of Tongues-of the-Nations.
And-They-take-fast-hold in-hem-of a-Man/0376 'iysh, a-Judean, to-say-of 'We-shall-go with-Thee, that We-hear Elohiym with-Thee'". [Mark 6:56]

כגכֹּה-אָמַר, יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת, בַּיָּמִים הָהֵמָּה, אֲשֶׁר יַחֲזִיקוּ עֲשָׂרָה אֲנָשִׁים מִכֹּל לְשֹׁנוֹת הַגּוֹיִם; וְהֶחֱזִיקוּ בִּכְנַף אִישׁיְהוּדִי לֵאמֹר, נֵלְכָה עִמָּכֶם--כִּי שָׁמַעְנוּ, אֱלֹהִים עִמָּכֶם. {ס}

Impressive observation. Well done. It only appears it is a single Jew.

Young's Literal.

Thus said Jehovah of Hosts: In those days take hold do ten men of all languages of the nations, Yea, they have taken hold on the skirt of a man, a Jew, saying: We go with you, for we heard God [is] with you!