Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[onwingsaseagles]

So when Rev 19 says that there was a great multitude IN HEAVEN and that the marriage of the Lamb is come, you see that as meeting the Lord in the air ? I guess this is how Nana sees it also. She was saying that the wedding is in the air I think.

There is no teaching in the bible which says that we meet the Lord in the air and then return to earth, so I could just as easily say that this is a post trib teaching.

Actually it is the teaching of scripture that we return to earth after meeting the Lord in the air...let me explain. No where in all of the Bible does it say that Jesus returns to heaven after His descent at the 2nsd coming, no where in scripture does it teach that there is a 3rd coming of Christ or a secret coming of Christ. So when it says in 1st Thess 4:15 that we that are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, the only biblical assumption is that this is indeed His 2nd coming the only coming of the Lord mentioned in scripture outside His first when He was born as a baby. We know that when He returns tat this 2nd coming He is coming to earth to set up his Millennial Kingdom. Therefore when it says we meet Him in the air where would we go from there? Well you have 3 options...
#1 We just stay in the air.
#2 We go back to Heaven where we just came from most of us because most of the church will have died b4 the 2nd coming only a few will be left alive until His return.
#3 We continue with the Lord to earth to reign with Him in His millennial Kingdom here on earth.

The only biblical view is the 3rd one. The only one of the three that you can show through scripture is the 3rd view.

I am not that dogmatic about it either, just trying to understand the post trib thinking on this topic. From what I gather so far, I see that the post trib view has some of Christ's bride going through the tribulation while the others are in heaven. When the Lord comes you have those on earth meeting the Lord in the air and then returing to earth and reigning with Him for a thousand years.

I have heard the view that the church remains in heaven during the millennial reign of Christ, and that's interesting too because we're told in rev 21 that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and that it is the Lamb's wife.

Either way, the post trib view seems problematic to me. The argument that pre tribbers will be deceived (as some say) seems pretty weak to me. If a person is born again and in Christ, He has promised to perform that good work which He began in them, even until the Day of Jesus Christ.

Well, this is not a OSAS debate but the Bible clearly staes that only those that endure until the end shall be saved ''Matthew 24:12-13'' and that those that overcome until then end shall reign with Christ ''Revelation 2:26'' and that those evil servant that shall say to himself that the Lord has delayed His coming shall have His portion with the hypocrite ''Matthew 24:48-51''

Those that are alive will go through the trib those that have died b4 the trib or during the trib will be in heaven, seems simple enough to me. That is why we are told in Mark 13:27 that the elect is gathered from heaven and earth after the trib at the return of Christ. Those that have died are gathered from heaven and those that are still alive will be gathered from earth.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

No, ALL of the church goes through the tribulation...except those who have died in Christ. Their Spirits remain with Christ until He comes at the end of the tribulation when those who are alive and remain are caught up after the resurrected.

Very well put

 

[Ghost air]

No, ALL of the church goes through the tribulation...except those who have died in Christ.

YES, and that is only SOME of the church Nana, no matter how you slice it. Obviously the members of His body who happen to be deceased do NOT go through the great tribuation, only those who happen to be alive at the time go through it, in the post trib view.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

I have heard the view that the church remains in heaven during the millennial reign of Christ, and that's interesting too because we're told in rev 21 that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and that it is the Lamb's wife.

The New Jerusalem doesn't come down until after the 1000 years are over. We celebtate the marriage supper in heaven. The reason it says that it is prepared as a bride adorned for her husband is because when it comes down, we are in it.....Rev 3:12 ~ Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is NEW JERUSALEM, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Either way, the post trib view seems problematic to me. The argument that pre tribbers will be deceived (as some say) seems pretty weak to me. If a person is born again and in Christ, He has promised to perform that good work which He began in them, even until the Day of Jesus Christ.

I have no problems with it at all, as well as other posties. I do believe that some pre trib believers will be deceived because they aren't expecting to go through the tribulation. The shock factor alone will throw some for a wild ride.

 

[Ghost air]

Actually it is the teaching of scripture that we return to earth after meeting the Lord in the air...let me explain. No where in all of the Bible does it say that Jesus returns to heaven after His descent at the 2nsd coming, no where in scripture does it teach that there is a 3rd coming of Christ or a secret coming of Christ. So when it says in 1st Thess 4:15 that we that are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, the only biblical assumption is that this is indeed His 2nd coming the only coming of the Lord mentioned in scripture outside His first when He was born as a baby. We know that when He returns tat this 2nd coming He is coming to earth to set up his Millennial Kingdom. Therefore when it says we meet Him in the air where would we go from there? Well you have 3 options...
#1 We just stay in the air.
#2 We go back to Heaven where we just came from most of us because most of the church will have died b4 the 2nd coming only a few will be left alive until His return.
#3 We continue with the Lord to earth to reign with Him in His millennial Kingdom here on earth.

The only biblical view is the 3rd one. The only one of the three that you can show through scripture is the 3rd view.

I would tend to agree if it was not for Rev 19 and Matthew 25. Rev 19 speaks of a great multitude in heaven and that the marriage of the Lamb is come. Now if you'd like to continue believing that this isn't the marriage of the Lamb taking place in heaven, then you're obviously entitled to that. I see it as a clear biblical teaching that the marriage is in heaven and that His coming is AFTER the wedding, just as the bible describes it.

Matthew 25 speaks of the wise virgins entering into the marriage and that the door was shut. When we couple this with Rev 19, it's a pretty strong point that the marriage is in heaven.

Well, this is not a OSAS debate but the Bible clearly staes that only those that endure until the end shall be saved ''Matthew 24:12-13'' and that those that overcome until then end shall reign with Christ ''Revelation 2:26'' and that those evil servant that shall say to himself that the Lord has delayed His coming shall have His portion with the hypocrite ''Matthew 24:48-51''

I do not read Matthew within the context of the church. It's not written to the church at all. Paul is the Apostle to the gentiles and his letters are addressed to the church. So when Paul writes that he is persuaded that He will perform that good work which He began in us, then I agree with him. I also agree with him when he writes in Romans that there is nothing which can separate us from the love of God which is in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Those that are alive will go through the trib those that have died b4 the trib or during the trib will be in heaven, seems simple enough to me. That is why we are told in Mark 13:27 that the elect is gathered from heaven and earth after the trib at the return of Christ. Those that have died are gathered from heaven and those that are still alive will be gathered from earth.

Same basic premise as above. Mark is not written to the church of God. It is obviously profitable for the church, although it is not written to the church.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

YES, and that is only SOME of the church Nana, no matter how you slice it. Obviously the members of His body who happen to be deceased do NOT go through the great tribuation, only those who happen to be alive at the time go through it, in the post trib view.

I really do not understand your point that is the way life is. Those that are dead are in heaven while those that are alive have to live their life in whatever circumstances life dictates. Those that died b4 the Jews were in bondage in Egypt did not have to be in bondage in Egypt. Those that lived after the death of Moses did not have to wander in the desert. The early Christians were persecuted and martyred by the Romans. The people living between 500ad-1500ad were forced to adhere to what the Catholic church said under threat of death and or ex-communication. We that live now in America can openly express our beliefs but those rights are being slowly taken away, and those that are living when the tribulation comes will have to go through it. I am having difficulty understanding why this is something you cannot grasp.

 

[Ghost air]

I do believe that some pre trib believers will be deceived because they aren't expecting to go through the tribulation. The shock factor alone will throw some for a wild ride.

Why would a member of the body of Christ expect to go through the great tribulation when every other member of His body so far has NOT gone through it ?

Why would the Thess church be unsettled in their thinking that the Day had already come ? Why would Paul write what he did rather than simply say, hey you'd better be ready for that ?

Regardless, a member of the body of Christ is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance in Christ even until the redemption of the purchased possession. I take that to the bank, because it's the etenal word of God which lives and abides for ever.

 

[Ghost air]

I really do not understand your point that is the way life is. Those that are dead are in heaven while those that are alive have to live their life in whatever circumstances life dictates. Those that died b4 the Jews were in bondage in Egypt did not have to be in bondage in Egypt. Those that lived after the death of Moses did not have to wander in the desert. The early Christians were persecuted and martyred by the Romans. The people living between 500ad-1500ad were forced to adhere to what the Catholic church said under threat of death and or ex-communication. We that live now in America can openly express our beliefs but those rights are being slowly taken away, and those that are living when the tribulation comes will have to go through it. I am having difficulty understanding why this is something you cannot grasp.

It has nothing to do with not being able to grasp it. I understand what the view is, I simply do not see it as consistent biblical teaching.

It is a simple fact that many members of the body of Christ are deceased. They will not go through the great tribulation. It's not that they did not have tribuation in their life, but rather that they did not go through the great tribuation which will be unmatched in world history. It is called the time of testing for the whole world.

So again, it's not that it's hard to grasp or anything like that, it's simply inconsistent imo. The post trib view has only SOME members of His body going through it, while the others obviously will not be taken through it.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I would tend to agree if it was not for Rev 19 and Matthew 25. Rev 19 speaks of a great multitude in heaven and that the marriage of the Lamb is come. Now if you'd like to continue believing that this isn't the marriage of the Lamb taking place in heaven, then you're obviously entitled to that. I see it as a clear biblical teaching that the marriage is in heaven and that His coming is AFTER the wedding, just as the bible describes it.

There is no reason to believe that the marriage supper is b4 The return of Christ not by what is said in Rev 19 maybe you can explain to me exactly what Rev 19 says that makes you believe that it has to0 interpreted as the Marriage is taking place.

Matthew 25 speaks of the wise virgins entering into the marriage and that the door was shut. When we couple this with Rev 19, it's a pretty strong point that the marriage is in heaven.

Matthew 25 says that the 5 wise virgins that kept oil in there lamps were accepted into the wedding while the 5 foolish were not and further more it says they were shut out forever. There is no reason from what is said about thwe 10 virgins in Matt 25 that #1 that rapture is b4 the trib or #2 that the Marriage of the Lamb is in Heaven.

I do not read Matthew within the context of the church. It's not written to the church at all. Paul is the Apostle to the gentiles and his letters are addressed to the church. So when Paul writes that he is persuaded that He will perform that good work which He began in us, then I agree with him. I also agree with him when he writes in Romans that there is nothing which can separate us from the love of God which is in Jesus Christ our Lord.

I disagree, should we ignore the great commision?

Same basic premise as above. Mark is not written to the church of God. It is obviously profitable for the church, although it is not written to the church.

Once again, I disagree

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I really do not understand your point that is the way life is. Those that are dead are in heaven while those that are alive have to live their life in whatever circumstances life dictates. Those that died b4 the Jews were in bondage in Egypt did not have to be in bondage in Egypt. Those that lived after the death of Moses did not have to wander in the desert. The early Christians were persecuted and martyred by the Romans. The people living between 500ad-1500ad were forced to adhere to what the Catholic church said under threat of death and or ex-communication. We that live now in America can openly express our beliefs but those rights are being slowly taken away, and those that are living when the tribulation comes will have to go through it. I am having difficulty understanding why this is something you cannot grasp.

It has nothing to do with not being able to grasp it. I understand what the view is, I simply do not see it as consistent biblical teaching.

It is a simple fact that many members of the body of Christ are deceased. They will not go through the great tribulation. It's not that they did not have tribuation in their life, but rather that they did not go through the great tribuation which will be unmatched in world history. It is called the time of testing for the whole world.

So again, it's not that it's hard to grasp or anything like that, it's simply inconsistent imo. The post trib view has only SOME members of His body going through it, while the others obviously will not be taken through it.

Well I am not to hung up on the fact that those that have already diesd will not have to go through the tribulation and I might, I just believe what is taught in scripture. Here are the 2 main points of the post trib view as I see it at least

#1 Jesus returns after the Tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

#2 The resurrection of the just as well as the rapture is at the coming of the Lord.

1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Now if you can prove those two things
#1 The 2nd coming is after the Tribulation
and
#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming.
Then you have proven the 3rd point which is
#3 the Rapture itself must be after the Tribulation.

I believe the first 2 points are more than provable biblical combined with the fact that the pretrib rapture is totally non scriptural is proof that the posttrib view is truth.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

6 points that prove post trib rapture (scripture included)

#1 1st Thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

#2 Matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.

#3 1st Cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation, the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.

#4 Luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked (which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.

#5 John 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).

#6 Rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs as well as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection.

Therefore the pretrib rapture as well as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Well I am not to hung up on the fact that those that have already diesd will not have to go through the tribulation and I might, I just believe what is taught in scripture. Here are the 2 main points of the post trib view as I see it at least

#1 Jesus returns after the Tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

#2 The resurrection of the just as well as the rapture is at the coming of the Lord.

1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Now if you can prove those two things
#1 The 2nd coming is after the Tribulation
and
#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming.
Then you have proven the 3rd point which is
#3 the Rapture itself must be after the Tribulation.

I believe the first 2 points are more than provable biblical combined with the fact that the pretrib rapture is totally non scriptural is proof that the posttrib view is truth.

Again, Onwingsaseagles, YOU need to prove with scriptures that "the tribulation" that Jesus mentions in Matt 24/Mark 13 is the final seven years of judgment and wrath of God that you claim it is. There is ample scripture that defines exactly what "the tribulation" is.

It is wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution and martyrdom that have been going on in increasing frequency and intensity since Christ ascended and opened the first four seals of Rev 6. (also mentioned in Matt 24).

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.



Rom 8:35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?



Act 14:22Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.



Mat 24:21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Mat 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Rev 6 description of the great multitude coming out of great tribulation, having washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, directly relates to Exodus 19:10-20 where Moses consecrated the people for TWO DAYS (2000 years) and they washed their robes in preparation to meet with the Lord who came down ON THE MORNING OF THE 3RD DAY at the sound of a TRUMPET!

 

[Ghost air]

There is no reason to believe that the marriage supper is b4 The return of Christ not by what is said in Rev 19 maybe you can explain to me exactly what Rev 19 says that makes you believe that it has to0 interpreted as the Marriage is taking place.

I'll repost one of my replies to Nana from this thread.

The chapter begins like this;

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

A few verses later (in the same chapter) we read this;

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Then in the same chapter, when we read of Christ coming, look who is following Him;

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

So let me recap what I read here in Rev 19.

There is a great multitude IN HEAVEN, that's a pretty good start.

Then it says, let us be glad and rejoice for the MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB IS COME. (Evidently this means that it has NOT come to a post tribber ?)

It then says that to her it was granted that she should be adorned in FINE LINEN...

THEN it speaks of Christ coming and that there were armies follwing HIM and they were clothed in FINE LINEN.

How in the world can this be neglected as the simple truth of God's word ? You're telling me the OPPOSITE of what the bible tells me, because the bible tells me that there is a multitude in heaven and that the marriage of the Lamb is come, and you're telling me that it doesn't mean that ?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I'll repost one of my replies to Nana from this thread.

The chapter begins like this;

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

A few verses later (in the same chapter) we read this;

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Then in the same chapter, when we read of Christ coming, look who is following Him;

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

So let me recap what I read here in Rev 19.

There is a great multitude IN HEAVEN, that's a pretty good start.

Then it says, let us be glad and rejoice for the MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB IS COME. (Evidently this means that it has NOT come to a post tribber ?)

It then says that to her it was granted that she should be adorned in FINE LINEN...

THEN it speaks of Christ coming and that there were armies follwing HIM and they were clothed in FINE LINEN.

How in the world can this be neglected as the simple truth of God's word ? You're telling me the OPPOSITE of what the bible tells me, because the bible tells me that there is a multitude in heaven and that the marriage of the Lamb is come, and you're telling me that it doesn't mean that ?

Take it a step further...Rev 6

Those white robes are given to the Bride in seal #5 BEFORE judgment and wrath when the sun/moon darken which Jesus said is AFTER the tribulation and Joel says is BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
Rev 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Rev 6:11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer (for the judgment and vengeance) , until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,





Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Therefore, the tribulation is the first four seals which according to Matt 24, have been going on since Christ ascended. The sun/moon darken BEFORE the final seven years and the church is given her white robes (Bridal clothes/glorified bodies) BEFORE the sun/moon darken!

PROOF that there is a "pre-trib" rapture!

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Again, Onwingsaseagles, YOU need to prove with scriptures that "the tribulation" that Jesus mentions in Matt 24/Mark 13 is the final seven years of judgment and wrath of God that you claim it is. There is ample scripture that defines exactly what "the tribulation" is.

It has been proven.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

You can actually prove that the rapture is after the tribulation by proving two other things. #1 that the second coming is after the tribulation, #2 that the rapture is at, and or on the same day as the second coming. If you can show that the second coming is after the tribulation and that the rapture is at the second coming, then that in itself proves that the rapture is indeed post tribulational. The main text I will use to show that the second coming is after the tribulation is Matthew 24:29-31. I will also use it's sister scripture Mark 13:24-27.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.
Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that this is the Jewish elect not the church, but we have already shown the deception behind this teaching. Other argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows
Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now in the next chapter I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

Now that I have proven that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation and clarifies for Jen what the Tribulation is It will be no problem to show that the rapture is at this posttrib 2nd coming.

1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Here is one of our two foundational scriptures that show the rapture. There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.
Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop the book right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.


1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they they are Christ at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrection at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.


2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth and then the anti christ will be revealed and then the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.


1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

All of this confusion is based in the idea that the physical return of Jesus is THE 2nd coming.

It's ALL the return of the Lord. From the giving of white robes to the gog destruction to the sun/moon darkening, to each of the trumpet events, to the two witnesses, to the reign of the beast, to Armageddon as Christ is physically coming. It's ALL the reign of God over the earth and continues for 1000 years.

[People fear the reign of the devil (anti-christ) as though God is not in control. God made it clear in Rev 2, 3, and 17 that GOD USES the devil to accomplish HIS purposes.]

We are not on the lookout for the anti-christ. We are excitedly awaiting Christ, the fulfillment of the New Covenant which is the change to glorified bodies and the fulfillment of the New Covenant promises.

We do not appear to return to the earth until after the millennium when the New Jerusalem, our heavenly home according to Hebrews, comes down.

Edit to add:

The white robes are given to the Bride BEFORE judgment according to Rev 6. The white robes are given to the Bride BEFORE the sun/moon darken which is the signal that the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath has BEGUN according to Rev 6 and Joel 2.

The congregation is gathered to the Lord BEFORE judgment and wrath:

Psa 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psa 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.



Psa 75:2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.



Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.



You would have the rapture happen as Christ is coming with the angels to destroy the army formed against him and all the evil or AFTER that happens and that isn't what the Bible says. NOWHERE does the Bible say that the Bride comes with Christ to destroy the evil. NOWHERE does it say that the rapture happens after judgment and wrath have been poured out. It literally says we are gathered BEFORE judgment and wrath!

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I'll repost one of my replies to Nana from this thread.

The chapter begins like this;

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

A few verses later (in the same chapter) we read this;

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Then in the same chapter, when we read of Christ coming, look who is following Him;

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

So let me recap what I read here in Rev 19.

There is a great multitude IN HEAVEN, that's a pretty good start.

Then it says, let us be glad and rejoice for the MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB IS COME. (Evidently this means that it has NOT come to a post tribber ?)

It then says that to her it was granted that she should be adorned in FINE LINEN...

THEN it speaks of Christ coming and that there were armies follwing HIM and they were clothed in FINE LINEN.

How in the world can this be neglected as the simple truth of God's word ? You're telling me the OPPOSITE of what the bible tells me, because the bible tells me that there is a multitude in heaven and that the marriage of the Lamb is come, and you're telling me that it doesn't mean that ?

The marriage has come is referring to the fact that Jesus was about to return and receive His bride, notice those that are clothed ijn white linen follow with Him from heaven to receive their heavenly bodies and be reunited with the rest of the bride at the wedding which is when we meet the Lord in the air.

I am telling you exactly what the word says not opposite. Now if you want to talk about opposite of what the word says lets taught about the pretrib doctrine.

The Bible says that we are raise on the last day, pretrib says that we are raise 7 years b4 the last day. The Bible says that the rapture is on the same day as the 2nd coming pretrib says it is 7 years b4. The Bible says the rapture is at the last trump the pretrib doctrine says it is not really the last truup. The bible says the rapture is part of the 1st resurrection the pretrib says it is not the 1st resurrection. Every thing the Bible teaches about the 2nd coming, resurrection of the just, and the rapture the pretrib doctrine teaches the opposite.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

For you to continue to hold onto the pretrib view, you must insist that immediately after the tribulation actually means right before it starts. You also have to say that the first resurrection is not really the first resurrection, that the last trump isn't really the last trump, and that the same day means seven years apart. Sound funny when put that way, but believe or not there are those that teach just that, when confronted with the truth.

Call me crazy but I believe the Bible means what it says. When it says immediately after the tribulation, I believe it. When it says first resurrection, I believe it is talking about the first resurrection. When it says the last trump, I believe there will be no more trumpets sounded after that one. When the Bible says the rapture is on the same day as the second coming and that Jesus does not return until after the tribulation, I have no choice but to take God's word for it

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

For you to continue to hold onto the pretrib view, you must insist that immediately after the tribulation actually means right before it starts. You also have to say that the first resurrection is not really the first resurrection, that the last trump isn't really the last trump, and that the same day means seven years apart. Sound funny when put that way, but believe or not there are those that teach just that, when confronted with the truth.

Call me crazy but I believe the Bible means what it says. When it says immediately after the tribulation, I believe it. When it says first resurrection, I believe it is talking about the first resurrection. When it says the last trump, I believe there will be no more trumpets sounded after that one. When the Bible says the rapture is on the same day as the second coming and that Jesus does not return until after the tribulation, I have no choice but to take God's word for it

Amen onwings. I really don't understand why Ghost air is having a hard time with only part of the church going through the tribuilation. It's like I told him before, if every Christian were still alive since Christ ascended, some of us would be 2000 + years old. Death is inevitable for us all if Jesus tarries and it's our time to go. Personally, I woudn't want to be 2000 years old. EWE..the wrinkles that Oil of Olay can't smoothe out
I found this verse some years back that I thought gave a good reason for the righteous dying..Isaiah 57:1-2.. The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
2) He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds (death), each one walking in his uprightness.
Now to me that is saying that for only reasons that God knows, we are alive at this time, and those who have died were not to be living at this time. Our souls were with God before the foundations of the world, because the bible states that He chose us before the foundations of the world...Eph 1:4. It also states that he knew us before we were born...Jer 1:5 ~ Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Now, I accept this as an explanation why we are here, and the dead aren't for this time in history. Some things I believe that ONLY God knows and we never will. I have faith to believe that He knew/knows what He did/is going to do, so I don't question this reasoning that Ghost air has regarding this.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Come on folks. Does it really MATTER whether it is pre, mid, post or anywhere in between. When it happens, it will all be over Swiftly, I promise.

Revelation 22:6 And said to me: "These, the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets, commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet to-be-becoming/ginesqai <1096> (5738) these-things, up-bend!, and lift up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the Loosing/apo-lutrwsiV <629> of ye [Daniel 12/Reve 16/19]