Praying to Saints

[thecolorsblend]

So , while I believe in the intercession of the saints ..it is the living saints .

Ah. So when Our Lord said that God is the God of the living, not the dead, He was just wrong or something?

 

[dzheremi]

With all due respect, how do you address the resurrection of Jesus after His crucifixion, and then his ascension to heaven?

Pardon? I don't understand why you are asking me this. I am not Roman Catholic, and am in no way defending this doctrine of theirs, only explaining what it actually is, because it is a common misconception that refers to the birth of Christ.

 

[DamianWarS]

The question is not whether or not you see the value in having other people pray for you. If you don't, then you don't - although it's a great loss for you.

The question is "is it forbidden to pray people to pray for us", and the answer is quite obviously "no". Then the question is "does the bible give us any reason to think it's wrong to pray our departed brethren in heaven to pray for us", and again the answer is "no". If you have a coherent biblical reasoning to conclude otherwise, than please provide it - and no, the fact that you don't get why someone would want to do it doesn't count.

my question is "what is the value of praying to saints" and you have again avoided it so I'll ask again, what is the value of praying to saints?

 

[dreadnought]

How do you distinguish the two?

I am always praying TO the Lord. I can do that by myself or with others.

 

[dreadnought]

There are many references in the letters of the New Testament to requests to " pray for us" or " pray for each other" . So clearly yes, it is possible and useful.

Revelations explains that the prayers of saints are there at the altar of God. So asking them to pray for us is effective.
Do they hear us? We know we are surrounded by " great cloud of witnesses" and there is "more joy in heaven over a sinner that repents"

As for Mary, her role as intercessor with Jesus, is heralded in the OT by her position as davidic queen( i.e. Mother of king) - her influence demonstrated at the miracle of Cana Cana , but rebuked by our Lord because at that time his "time had not yet come", which it certainly has now. There is documentary evidence of the tradition - intercession of theotokos - ( e.g. Ryland's papyrus) long before the New Testament canon was concluded. And it was certainly believed by fathers at early councils.

Praying FOR you is different than praying TO you.

 

[dreadnought]

So rather than study the Bible to see whether or not I'm right, you prefer to call into question my relationship with God. How sad.

No, I'm just saying that we are supposed to obey the first, and great, commandment - that we love the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls. I think it is impossible to do that without getting to know him.

 

[dreadnought]

We do pray directly to God. But it's another Catholic "both/and"

"A personal relationship with the Lord" Yes indeed!......But what does that mean?
How is that lived out?
How do you love "The Lord"?
By "loving-one-another"....this is God's delight.
This is what becoming divine (Trinitarian) means.

"Me-&-Jesus" is a very modern, protestant heresy, naturally emerging from an individualistic, egotistical culture.
But the God of The Bible ALWAYS saves (& makes ever-expanding covenants with) communities.
Couple(Adam-&-Eve), Family (Noah), Tribe (Abraham), Israel, All-the-nations.

Catholics believe God is PERFECT COMMUNAL LOVE.
That is why there are "3-Persons-in-One-God".
Perfect-Love is..... "Separate-Persons-in-co-attraction-being-Perfectly-One"
LOVE
One person=Narcissism
Two Persons=Reciprocity
Three Persons=Community

I realise God is ultimately incomprehensible by our reason, but some truthes have been revealed about him that point our meditation of him in the right direction.

GOD-IS-PERFECT-COMMUNAL-LOVE.

That's why throughout the Old Testament He always saves "A People" And he forms Covenants with His People.
So Jesus says... "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." (And he lays down his life for us) (John 13:34).
So God's delight is his children "loving one another" (becoming God's-essence.....Perfect-Communal-Love)

The "Communion of The Saints" is all about this Communal-Love that is God's very nature.
The grave does not separate us from this Love.

So Catholics emphasise that Heaven is a community....that begins now.
I think it's fair to say some Protestants can get locked into an individualistic "me-&-Jesus" personal-salvation, that is unbiblical.

Another point is that. As James 5:16 says "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." So I like to enlist those righteous ones now with God, especially the mosty righteous "grace-filled-one" Mary.
In that connection look up the role of The Davidic King's mother (Gebirah & Queen) which was to intercede with the king for the people. Then read the story of Mary kicking off Jesus' mission at Cana again (john 2:1-12) & understand why Jesus (Davidic King) defers to His mother's intercession even though He thought his "hour had not yet come".

There are two great commandments (Matt 22:34-40). The first, and great, one is that we are to love the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls. The second is to love our neighbors as ourselves. People seem to continually confuse praying FOR someone with praying TO someone.

 

[dreadnought]

Do you trust the Bible that those church fathers were trusted by God to put together almost 400 years later?

I believe that the Bible was a faithful witness and an accurate account of what happened. I believe the epistles were genuine. As far as whether or not the apostles were perfect, no I do not believe they were.

 

[dreadnought]

They do not pray to saints. They ask the saints to pray to God for them. It’s intercessory prayer.
Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Have you ever lost someone who was close to you who often prayed for you? Do you think that person stopped asking God to help you in your life?

When people ask for prayer, they ask people who either love them or are devout. Saints are people who have lived devout lives and reality changing miracles have been granted by God in response to their faithful prayer. People ask those saints, who they believe are in the presence of God, to add their prayers to their own and others. They know the saints are not responsible for miracles.

If a man asks the saints to pray for him, does he then pray to the Lord himself?

 

[dreadnought]

Dreadnought, you and many, if not all protestants, you guys dreadtomuch, and forget that God created a family of Christians those now in heaven and we here on earth.

Dread, do you dread, Jesus parable, of the Rich Man and the poor man Lazarus? In Jesus parable here the poor man Lazarus was reclining on the bosom of Abraham, rather than God, our Lord's Father in heaven?

Dread, don't you see that even in heaven the saints cling to one another, like Abraham and the poor man, and it is no difference here that we Catholics cling to our saints in heaven.

Dread do you think Jesus Christ made a mistake by having the poor man Lazarus recline on the bosom of Abraham, rather than recline on the bosom of God His Father??? The Truth is regarding this parable, Jesus Christ sounds more like a Catholic than a Protestant. Amen Amen

Now if the Lord was not upset that Lazarus was reclining on the bosom of Abraham, rather than on God His Father, Christ will not be upset if we pray to the saints in Heaven.

How many of us Christians have run to their mother first when they want something, from their father. THIS IS WHAT A FAMILY IS ALL ABOUT.

Luke 16: 19There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. 20And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, 21Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. 26And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. 27And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, 28That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. 29And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. 31And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

Are you telling me, then, that it's Catholics who pray to saints?

 

[marineimaging]

Pardon? I don't understand why you are asking me this. I am not Roman Catholic, and am in no way defending this doctrine of theirs, only explaining what it actually is, because it is a common misconception that refers to the birth of Christ.

O.K., that is fair. In about 50 years of hearing the story of Mary and the immaculate conception, I have never heard..., ever heard that it referred to Mary and not Jesus. Where does that thought come from?

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is a back-to-front stance.
THe Church is The Authority founded by Christ.
This Catholic Church discerned, selected & compiled "The Bible" 350 years later.
The Catholic Church selected, compiled & defined what became known as "The Bible" in order to regulate what books could be read from at the Holy Mass. This was around 400AD around 350 years after they had been preaching The Gospel & spreading Christianity ....with no Bible.
The early Catholic Christians used Jewish writings we call The Old Testament. They also used many writings from early Christians as they were written. The Catholic Church wanted to regulate what books could be read in The Holy Liturgy of The Mass. And some of the new writings were suspect.

So in 367 AD St. Athanasius drew up a list of 73 books for the Bible that he believed to be divinely inspired.
This list was approved by Pope Damasus I in 382 AD,
It was formally approved by the Church Council of Rome 382 AD. This was the start of The Universal Canon. What we today call "The Bible"
Exactly the same Canon was ratified again at the Councils at Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage (397 AD)
In 405 AD, Pope Innocent I wrote to the Bishop of Toulouse confirming this same Canon.
In 419 AD, the Council of Carthage reaffirmed this list, which Pope Boniface agreed to.
THAT IS WHERE THE BIBLE CAME FROM. This is historical fact.
1200 years later Luther removed 7 books.
He did this because Maccabees encouraged prayers for the dead. To get rid of Maccabbees he got rid of the group of books called DeuteroCanonicals.
He also wanted to remove James, Jude, Hebrews & Revelations...but friends dissuaded him.
He really chopped The Bible to fit his new Protestant religion.


Christ founded His Church.....He did not write a book.
"The Church" not "The Bible"... is.... "the pillar & foundation of Truth".
That's what THE BIBLE SAYS! (1 Tim 3:15)
And nowhere does The Bible mention "The Bible" .....because "The Bible" is a Selected COMPENDIUM made by The Catholic Church after preaching the Gospel without The Bible for 350 years.
If you listened to Jesus, you would listen to his Church. (Luke 10:16) "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” "(Matt 28:18-)
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”…
Apparently Jesus did it wrong. He shouldn't have had Apostles who appointed Bishops, Deacons & Presbyters (Elders/Priests)....forming a growing body of Apostolic-teachers under authority. He shouldn't have refounded The Messianic Davidic Kingdom with Davidic Steward (Matt 16:18-19 & Isaiah 22:19-23)
Jesus should have got out his carpenter-kit & built The Printing Press so that Protestantism could have been invented 1500 years before it did arrive! Then He should have said ...."Now let's write The Book" Then He could have miraculously caused universal literacy .

Wow why do I feel like I just got scolded?

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

My suggestion is you study early church history.

You are way off base about Catholicism.

And also scripture.
There are many references in scripture to asking others to pray for us. Which you dismiss in your rhetoric.

As for Mary as intercessor, she is heralded in the OT as a davidic queen , with power of intercession, which she uses at Cana to be told his " time had not yet come" which it has now! Jesus did what she asked anyway.

Except the reference to the Messiah being born of a virgin, there are no verifiable references to Mary in the Old Testament. It is all theoretical in order to back up RCC heterodoxies. Roman culture was very much into the worship of goddesses, so of course they would synthesize these pagan beliefs into the early Church if they could. They did.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

O.K., that is fair. In about 50 years of hearing the story of Mary and the immaculate conception, I have never heard..., ever heard that it referred to Mary and not Jesus. Where does that thought come from?

The Roman desire to make Mary into a goddess.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Those in Heaven aren't dead technically speaking.

"John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

But the saints who have died and are awaiting the Rapture, are said to be the "dead in Christ."

16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Catholics like to ask saints for things. Yet, in the Bible, if we were to intently look at the way of pray that Christ trained His disciples, we would see a different story.

“And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, TEACH us to PRAY, as John also taught his disciples." (Luke 11:1).

"And he (Jesus himself) said unto them, When you pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven," (Luke 11:2).

11. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone (or will that good earthly father give his children a STONE when they ask for BREAD to eat)? Or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12. Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13. If you then, being evil, know how to give GOOD gifts unto your children: how much MORE shall your heavenly Father GIVE the Holy Spirit to them that ASK him?” (Luke 11:11-13).

But when YOU pray, USE NOT VAIN REPETITIONS, as the heathen do: for they THINK that they shall be HEARD for their much speaking." (Matthew 6:7).

1 Timothy 2:5 says,
“For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”

23 “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man LOVE me, he will KEEP my WORDS: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”
24. He that loves me NOT keeps NOT my sayings: and the word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.” (John 14:23-24).

 

[dzheremi]

O.K., that is fair. In about 50 years of hearing the story of Mary and the immaculate conception, I have never heard..., ever heard that it referred to Mary and not Jesus. Where does that thought come from?

That question is probably better asked of a Catholic.

Here is the text of the Papal Bull in which it was promulgated, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): Ineffabilis Deus - Papal Encyclicals

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That question is probably better asked of a Catholic.

Here is the text of the Papal Bull in which it was promulgated, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): Ineffabilis Deus - Papal Encyclicals

Which is easily refuted by Scripture. Mary had children besides Jesus (Matthew 13:55-56). Joseph began normal intimate relations with his wife after Jesus was born (Matthew 1:24-25).

Catholics say Mary is blessed and they uplift here.
Here is what Scripture says about this.

"While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." But He [Jesus] said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it." (Luke 11:27-28).

 

[Mountainmike]

Praying FOR you is different than praying TO you.

Correct - that is why if you ever go to a mass you will hear the only normal reference to Mary is where we ask Mary to "pray for us" we dont "pray to her" in the context of worship. We ask her to intercede, just as the early fathers did - the ones who decided your new testament.

 

[Mountainmike]

Which is easily refuted by Scripture. Mary had children besides Jesus (Matthew 13:55-56). Joseph began normal intimate relations with his wife after Jesus was born (Matthew 1:24-25).

Catholics say Mary is blessed and they uplift here.
Here is what Scripture says about this.

"While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." But He [Jesus] said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it." (Luke 11:27-28).

You really do fall for all the anticatholic nonsense.
Sad you dont research it your self.

Or you would discover that "brother" in ancient language does not mean what you said.
And the mother of James is not Mary mother of Jesus - read matthew 20:20. ANd this time forget the sound bites try to understand scripture and read what the early fathers had to say.

Now also read Luke 1:34 and this time try to understand it.
Mary was betrothed. That is not engaged as we know it, the formalities of marriage were already done.
She was waiting for Joseph to set up a marital home that is all.

So when she says to the angel "how can this be, I have not known man" it was blindingly obvious how it could be - normal marital relations if there were to be any.

So the ONLY CONTEXT IN WHICH 1:34 MAKES SENSE is a vow of chastity, which we know from the dead see scrolls was not unknown even amongst married couples of the time.
In any event scripture alone is your problem, you are alone in interpreting it which is why you go off at tangents.. Yet as we have pointed out to you, it is ambiguous and not a complete manual of belief.

So Study tradition and authority (which is what scripture and early fathers tell you to do) to see what it means: which from Iraneus you know is the church at Rome because of succession from Peter.
The early fathers know far better than you... some were taught by apostles or only one generation after that.

That is the problem with protestants discussing such as catholicism...
1/ They know nothing about it
2/ they know nothing about the early church
3/ They echo all the same silly soundbites without ever researching them. or even thinking it through.

The Angel also said of Gods most graced Human, Mary , that "all generations will call her blessed" so when did you last do so?