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Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by PanDeVida, Aug 7, 2017.

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  1. MerryH3@rt

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    Those bible verses referred to in the above video are telling us the prayers in the vials are the prayers the saints made to God the Father not to the elders holding them. Necromancy which is talking to the dead, of whom Mary certainly is one, is clearly forbidden in scripture. See Deuteronomy 18: 10,12. We are never instructed to pray to people dead or alive, but to our Heavenly Father. When a disciple asked Jesus to teach them how to pray as John taught his disciples, Jesus answered and said,
    "When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth." Luke 11:1,2. Also Jesus also said about praying,
    "And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. John 16:23; and, all throughout the New testament, Jesus never called anyone "Father" except God. As matter of fact, our Lord says not to call anyone father-- "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven." Matthew 23:9 In this scripture just mentioned, He is not telling us not to call our parent Dad or Father; what Jesus meant here is that no one on earth is your spiritual father, except the Father in Heaven who alone gives eternal life to the believer through Yeshua- Jesus- the Messiah, for no human has the power to forgive sins and bring eternal life to an unbeliever except the Lord. So, we who have been born again are to refer only to God as spiritual Father.



    disciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, He began with...
     
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  2. MerryH3@rt

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    Excellent points symph. Love it
     
  3. MerryH3@rt

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    Absolutely, Symph. Mary only carried the Savior, its all about God and His Son and His plan of salvation for us all, not Mary or any other human. She needed the Savior to die for her sins just like the rest of us.
     
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  4. Symph

    Symph Active Member

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    Thanks @[email protected] !
     
  5. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense

    Still waiting.
     
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  6. Symph

    Symph Active Member

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    The reason I didn't reply to this is cause I just felt like we weren't having the same conversation. No one was saying it's ok to pray to Mary, we were saying that when that one person said that he felt sorrow for her loss and was telling her he was so sorry, it WASN'T praying to Mary. We're saying that that is not a prayer, not that it's ok to pray to her. You may disagree and say that it was indeed a prayer, I just felt at the time I didn't know how to respond cause.... I wasn't trying to defend praying to saints...
     
  7. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Exactly how is the invocation of the saints contradictory to the words of John 14:6 in your opinion?
     
  8. Lily of Valleys

    Lily of Valleys Well-Known Member

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    I don't hate Mary. I just don't see her as anything more than how Jesus sees her:

    While he was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (Luke 11:27-28)

    While he was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with him. [Someone told him, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.”] But he said in reply to the one who told him, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother. (Matthew 12:46-50)

    When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” [And] Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” (John 2:3-4)
     
  9. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    Still gives zero justification for praying to her and ignoring the Lord Jesus .
    And get real ...why pray to her at all .
    She's not God can't hear you can't help you.
    Do you not believe God can hear you?
    Then its a prayer of unbelief.. Sin.

    Do you know why God chose Mary ?
    Because she was of the tribe of Judah and betrothed to Joseph ... If Susan or Karen were betrothed to Joseph and from the same tribe it may have been them .she had zero special attributes .being a woman born of Adam no different to any other.
     
  10. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    And waiting....
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    It's sophistry. They are praying to that saint so as to relay their prayers to God is no different than if they were to pray directly to that saint to get something as if it was God. It is the same thing. They are praying to that entity for a God divined only privilege so as to gain divine favor. They are treating that entity as God because they are hoping that entity will give them favor if they pray to it (Instead of going directly to God). Besides, the Old Testament forbids contact with the dead for any reason. Having the dead relay their prayers to God would be included. They are still contacting the dead. The Old Testament says not to contact familiar spirits. Familar spirits would be any dead family member, or religious brother, etc. they were once familiar with in the living world. God does not want people to do this because the Lord our God is a jealous God. It is His right alone to receive prayer because prayer can only be done towards God.


    ...
     
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  12. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    If you just payed attention to the lyrics, you could have saved yourself that scene and directed your prayer to the Father who gave His only Son. . .

    Did you know
    That your baby boy has come to make you new?
    This child that you've delivered
    Will soon deliver you​
     
  13. Instrument150

    Instrument150 Active Member

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    Am I praying to you right now?
     
  14. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you stopped at verse 15, otherwise you'd see that the account of Saul consulting a medium to conjure up the spirit of Samuel didn't end very well for him. This is a good example of something in the Bible that is descriptive, not prescriptive. So then, let's continue reading...

    1 Samuel 25:16-19

    16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”
     
  15. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    Yup.. So far there has been no biblical defense for this sinful behaviour and what bible text has been thrown up has served to further condemn it.
     
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  16. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Staples has been exposed as a specious sophist of RC propaganda, and i doubt he has anything new, and I will post what i did on a concurrent thread here (Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?) of desperate Catholics seem to think constant posting of such propaganda will make it true.

    When the Holy Spirit inspires approx. 200 prayers in Scripture and instructs us to prayer after this manner, "Our Father who art in Heaven," to whom believers have direct access to in the holy of holies in Heaven by the blood of Christ, (Hebrews 10:19) who is the only heavenly intercessor btwn God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), who is the only one said to ever live to do so, (Hebrews 7:25) and never shows created being having the ability to hear all prayer, and nowhere records any prayer/supplication to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord - except by pagans - despite there always being plenty of created being in Heaven to pray to, and despite prayer to created beings being a most basic common practice by Catholics;

    then we can be sure praying to created beings in Heaven is not Scriptural, and to do so it is impugn the Spirit of God for only showing prayer made to God, and only teaching that prayer to God is addressed to God.

    Prayer to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH) is simply another of the Catholic distinctives that are not manifest in the inspired record of what the NT church believed and practiced (Acts onward, which is interpretive of the gospels) and here is absent from the entire body of inspired Scripture.

    Although the weight of Scriptural warrant is not the basis for the veracity of Catholic doctrine, and what "The Catholic Church" says is to be the supreme law, in condescension to those to test what is taught by the inspired writings, as the noble Bereans did, (Acts 17:11) and not vice versa, Catholics will desperately attempt to support PTCBIH by reasoning that since we ask each other to pray for us on earth then we can do so of those in Heaven.

    But only God is shown able to hear all prayer and is the only one appealed to as able to do so, and "only knowest the hearts of all the children of men," (1 Kings 8:39; 2 Chronicles 6:30; Acts 1:24) and from what I recall any two-way communication btwn created beings required both to somehow be visibly in the same place, versus believers praying "hear Thou from Heaven" 2 Chronicles 6:21,23,25,27,30,33,35,39).

    Catholics also vainly imagine that Angels and elders offering up prayers in Heaven (Revelation 5:8; 8:5) somehow supports praying to them, but which is not what is shown, nor even that they knew the express contents of these prayers before hand, and rather than this offering of prayers being some continuous postal service, they are offered in memorial before the judgments of the last days (Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4; f. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 6:15; 24:7; Num. 5:15)

    For when "He maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. (Psalms 9:12; cf. Genesis 4:10) and before judgment God brings forth testimony of the warrant for it, which includes the cry of those martyred souls under the altar in Rv. 6:9, and with odors representing prayer, akin to Leviticus 6:15, "burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the Lord." (Leviticus 6:15)

    Another attempt to invoke Genesis 48:16, taking it out of context, in which the addressee is God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, (Genesis 48:15) who is addressed as an angel, as in other examples of angelophanies (cf. Genesis 32:22-30 , Hosea 12:4; Acts 7:30) who "redeemed me [Joseph] from all evil," which manifestly was God. Joseph is not changing the addressee from God to an anonymous angel, but is addressing God as an angel.

    Another and egregious example is that of using such as texts "Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts" (Psalms 148:2) to support praying to angels. However, this also ignores context for to be consistent, contextually the Catholic must also affirm praying to created elements is also encouraged:

    Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. (Psalms 148:3) Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps: Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word: Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars: Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl: (Psalms 148:7-10)

    Catholics also employ in the specious hermeneutic that if God does not specifically explicitly disallow something then it may be sanctioned, as if the Spirit of God would actually fail to provide actual examples of PTCBIH while providing approx. 200 prayers, and yet recording that of such by pagans, and only instructing and exampling prayer to God in Heaven.
     
  17. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    Rather does not mean "instead". Jesus is not saying the woman from the crowd is wrong. He is using His mother and brothers as models of faith because they did the will of God.

    Of course we are all His mother and brothers when we do the will of God. To exclude Mary as a model of faith misses the point. She did the will of God in Luke 1, or Jesus may not have been born. We are like Mary in a certain sense of giving birth to Jesus in our hearts, which is doing the will of God. This verse supports the Catholic position of true devotion to Mary which always leads to Jesus, and is not the "gotcha"verse anti-Catholics are so fond of abusing.

    Woman, how does your concern affect me? is a Semitic idiom that means deference to authority. It does not mean "you are wrong so shut up". Jesus is not violating the 4th commandment (honor your parents). Various translations have this verse translated differently because it is an idiom.

    We see the same idiom deferring to the authority of Jesus in Matthew 8:29 when the demons cried out " “What have you to do with us, O Son of God?"
    It's the same idiom. It means deference to authority. Jesus is deferring to the (subordinate) authority of His mother.
    "They've run out of wine. 'Woman, what is this between you and me?'" It's a very interesting phrase. I would recommend for your study a book by a top Biblical scholar in America, Manuel Miguens, who wrote a study on what does it mean, the Semitic idiom, what to me and to you, woman?" He actually shows that there is nothing caustic or irritated about Jesus' reply at all. It's basically, "You know, there's nothing between you and me."

    So anyway, "Jesus said to her, 'Woman, what is it between you and me? My hour has not yet come." Jesus is thinking that the best wine will be given at the hour. What does Mary say? Mary is assuming another posture, now. She is going to have to distance herself from her son as her son. Now he's addressing her not as Mother, but as Woman. It sure connotes in my mind Genesis 3:15 and other key passages. Now all of a sudden, you are not just my mother anymore, what you are talking about in this miracle would initiate a whole new economy of salvation, woman, because that's what she is to be, a New Eve, a Mother to all of the renewed and redeemed humanity.

    "Woman, my hour has not yet come." What does she say, "Awe, come on, what are you going to do this for your mother, and now we're friends." No. She turns to the servants and says to them exactly what she says to us and all those who are truly devoted to our Lady, "Do whatever he tells you."

    We should never allow ourselves to be so exclusively focused upon Mary that we don't hear her primary utterance. Do whatever he tells us! That's why Marian devotion does not take us away from Christ. It refocuses our eyes and our ears on whatever he tells us and that's what she is passionately concerned about now as then. "Do whatever he tells you."
    Scott Hahn on the Blessed Virgin Mary | Catholic-Pages.com


    [​IMG]
     
  18. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    Your false charge of contacting the dead has been previously addressed. What your post shows is to much pride to take correction.
    Anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
    Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers
    But it takes an ounce of common sense to tell the difference.

    This is the third time you have posted lies about Catholic practices, just on this topic. Your prejudice is glaring.
     
  19. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Or we could post some of the prayers said to Mary by thousands.

    Prayers which include "consecrating" oneself to her, body, soul and everything one owns, to do with as she pleases.

    Prayers that place one's salvation in her hands, asking her to obtain salvation for us.

    Prayers where the person praying "consecrates" themselves to Mary as her "slave."

    So, how is any of that okay?
     
  20. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Here's but one example:

    O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy, Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners, we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart.

    We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are. To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls; to thee we give our homes, our families, our country.
    We desire that all that is in us and around us may belong to thee
    ,
    and may share in the benefits of thy motherly benediction. And that this act of consecration may be truly efficacious and lasting, we renew this day at thy feet the promises of our Baptism and our first Holy Communion.
    We pledge ourselves to profess courageously and at all times the truths of our holy Faith, and to live as befits Catholics who are duly submissive to all the directions of the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him.
    We pledge ourselves to keep the commandments of God and His Church, in particular to keep holy the Lord's Day.
    We likewise pledge ourselves to make the consoling practices of the Christian religion, and above all, Holy Communion, an integral part of our lives, in so far as we shall be able so to do.
    Finally, we promise thee, O glorious Mother of God and loving Mother of men, to devote ourselves whole-heartedly to the service of thy blessed cult, in order to hasten and assure, through the sovereignty of thine Immaculate Heart, the coming of the kingdom of the Sacred Heart of thine adorable Son, in our own hearts and in those of all men, in our country and in all the world, as in heaven. so on earth. Amen.


    EWTN - Prayers
     
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