Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense

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Instrument150

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No. It has nothing to do with being cautious. It is dead wrong to pray or contact the dead for any reason. Even messing around with an Ouija board will cause you problems. The Old Testament is clear in it's condemnation of contacting familar spirits (i.e. dead family members that are familar to you).

The Lord our God is a jealous God. Prayer is something that is spiritual and is exclusively His right alone. Only God can answer millions of prayers. It is illogical to assume that a dead saint can answer millions of prayers, too. When a person prays to a dead saint, these prayers are taking place their prayers that they would normally make to God.


...

With that being said, I would like to imagine that my immediate rebuking of said sin would grant me favor in Father's eyes for recognizing it
 
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Alithis

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So this hits a personal place for you, I get that. I dont think you're wrong for being cautious, this is one of those, difficult areas.
It's not difficult at all.its as clear light from dark.

Why would one pray to an entity other then The Lord Jesus who catagoricly stated No one comes to the father but through me.
And goes on to say any one who comes another way is a thief.

So why do it. ..some say they don't pray to Mary but rather they ask her to pray for them .of course this is ridiculous being that the word pray means “to earnestly ask“ .
It is also ridiculous because Jesus says pray like this ..our father who art....
Not ask the one your asking to pray for you.

And then there is the great crunch of it all.
One prays to others why?
Because they don't believe God will hear them.
And in their unbelief they are right.
For to receive anything from God we must first believe ..

So in the sin of unbelief they pray to another...adding to thier unbelief the sin of disobedience and then spiritual theft.

This is God we are approaching.not some dairy owner down the street.
When we come to him we better come they way HE SAID TO COME or we will find ourselves bound and cast into eternal darkness.

Mess with God...I don't think so. He is holy and faithful to his word.
 
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Instrument150

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I agree. It doesn't matter if the preacher Harry has a pulse.

Even in the Protestant worldview, there is this notion of “getting a holy man [or the pastor, etc.] to pray for you.” Hence, a person would, e.g., ask Billy Graham to pray for them, because it is thought that somehow his prayer might have more effect. This intuition is actually based on explicit biblical testimony:
James 5:14-18

Note here that the Bible itself recommends asking someone else to pray: “the elders” of the Church, who, like other Church leaders (1 Tim 3:1-13; Titus 1:7), are supposed to be of exemplary character, and “worthy of double honor” (1 Tim 5:17). They have more power, due to their ordination. In fact, this is a text we bring up in relation to the sacrament of anointing (also known as “extreme unction” or “last rites”: when a person is dying). So we ask them to pray due to the greater power they have in terms of a possible miracle occurring, or supernatural grace being imparted through them. They have more than we do ourselves; therefore, we ask them to pray.

To nail down his point, St. James cites the example of the prophet Elijah. When he prayed, it didn’t rain for three-and-a-half years. James says this was the case because (here is the principle he wishes to convey): “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” We see the same dynamic in the following passage:
1 Kings 13:6

This is the biblical rationale for asking others, of more spiritual stature in the kingdom, or holier (or, best of all, both!) to pray for us. But that is not yet the same as asking a (dead) saint to pray for us. How does one arrive at that conclusion? It takes a little more work, but it is possible to ground it, too, in Scripture by less direct, explicit biblical data.

In Revelation 5:8, the “twenty-four elders” (usually regarded by commentators as dead human beings) “fell down before the Lamb . . . with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” They appear to have other people’s prayers, to present to God. So the obvious question is: what are they doing with them? Why does Revelation present dead saints presenting the prayers of other saints to God?

If they have them, it stands to reason as a rather straightforward deduction, that they heard the initial prayers as well, or at least were granted knowledge of them in some fashion, granted ultimately through the power of God. Revelation 8:3-4 is even more explicit. Rather than equate incense and prayers, it actually distinguishes between them, and presents the scenario that the prayers and incense are presented together:

  • And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; [4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
So the question, again, is: what is this angel doing with “prayers of the saints” — presenting them to God? It seems clear to me that they have heard the prayers, and are involved as intercessors. Angels are extremely intelligent beings. We know that they rejoice when a sinner repents. They have knowledge in ways that we do not; above our comprehension.This is biblical proof that dead saints and angels both somehow have our prayers and present them to God. They are acting as intercessors and intermediaries. How do they hear our prayers? God gives them the power to do so because they are in heaven and therefore, outside of time. They are aware of earthly events. We know that from Hebrews 12:1 (“we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses”), and from Revelation 6:9-10, where dead saints are praying for those on the earth.

We also know of several incidents where dead men (even some from heaven) interact with those on earth: the Transfiguration (Mt 17:1-3 / Mk 9:4 / Lk 9:30-31), the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3-13, the prophet Samuel (not just a demon impersonating him: 1 Sam 28:7-20), and “many bodies of the saints” that came out of their graves after Jesus’ Resurrection and went into Jerusalem, appearing to many (Mt 27:50-53). In the deuterocanonical book of 2 Maccabees (15:13-16) the prophet Jeremiah returns to earth.

This is our entire rationale for asking saints to pray to God for us: all from the Bible:

  • 1) Holy men and women’s prayers have great power.

  • 2) Dead saints are perfected in holiness and are still part of the Body of Christ.

  • 3) The Blessed Virgin Mary in particular is exceptionally holy (Immaculate Conception) and as the Mother of God, her prayers have more power and effect than that of any other creature: all by God’s grace.

  • 4) We know that they are aware of what goes on in the earth.

  • 5) We know that they exercise much charity and pray for us.

Things like the Trinity, Christology, and original sin develop a lot in the post-biblical period, then it is no more difficult to believe that the Catholic doctrines of the communion of saints, and intercession and invocation of the saints also do so. There is enough in the Bible to show that it is perfectly harmonious with Christianity. And there is a ton of patristic testimony, too...

...If a saint is truly being thought of as a replacement for God, and an end in and of himself, then it is idolatry. If it was thought, for example, that Mary could grant requests in and of herself, without the grace of God, as if she were self-sufficient (in effect, like God), that would clearly be Mariolatry and rank idolatry, since that is a replacement of God Himself. In the Catholic view, saints reflect God’s glory. They are intermediaries; vessels. Mary points inquirers to her Son, Who is God. She doesn’t lift up herself.

Dialogue: "Why pray to a saint rather than to God?"


It wasn't any of those things. It was me being flooded with empathy for Mary's human perspective of the event, and then expressing to her my sorrow for her loss, especially since it was directly my fault, the same as I would a living person I had harmed through sin. So I guess the question is, Can you still vocally speak to someone who isn't dead without the use of sorcery? Just regular old language, with no expectancy of a response or action being taken of any kind
 
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Instrument150

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It's not difficult at all.its as clear light from dark.

Why would one pray to an entity other then The Lord Jesus who catagoricly stated No one comes to the father but through me.
And goes on to say any one who comes another way is a thief.

So why do it. ..some say they don't pray to Mary but rather they ask her to pray for them .of course this is ridiculous being that the word pray means “to earnestly ask“ .
It is also ridiculous because Jesus says pray like this ..our father who art....
Not ask the one your asking to pray for you.

And then there is the great crunch of it all.
One prays to others why?
Because they don't believe God will hear them.
And in their unbelief they are right.
For to receive anything from God we must first believe ..

So in the sin of unbelief they pray to another...adding to thier unbelief the sin of disobedience and then spiritual theft.

This is God we are approaching.not some dairy owner down the street.
When we come to him we better come they way HE SAID TO COME or we will find ourselves bound and cast into eternal darkness.

Mess with God...I don't think so. He is holy and faithful to his word.

You are taking the concept to the extreme. The question is not whether or not praying to Mary is ok in my situation. I know that it isn't, and so does everyone who has responded to me. The question is whether or not I'm considered as having prayed to Mary once.
 
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kepha31

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I'm so curious.... what are the numbers next to each paragraph?.... that is all....
Click on the link, Catechism of the Catholic Church - The first commandment it takes you to the full page. Scroll to the paragraph number you want. If you want to do deeper research, follow the footnotes. The abbreviations may be confusing, they are listed here:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - Abbreviations
The catechism is an organic whole and not to be taken out of context; when quoting it always include the link to the page. The same will work for the CCC 76 in my signature.
 
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Luke 1:48
"For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

Prophecy

Forgive me...
 
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Robert76

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Praying to Mary or to any Saint in Heaven

By Tim Staples

It is my understanding that the position of the Roman Catholic Church is that they are not praying 'to' the saints, but asking the saints to pray on their behalf. I could be wrong, and apologize in advance if so.

To me, the involvement of saints is superfluous (unnecessary) as one of the key differences from the old covenant to the new covenant is that we can now directly talk to God (with the old covenant, there was a high priest that would go into the temple on behalf of the people). When Jesus died on the cross, the curtain was torn, showing that this "barrier" no longer exists. This is also supported with 1 Timothy 2:5:

1 Timothy 2:5 (ESV) states, "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

Jesus IS our high priest and I'm not aware of any scriptural references that suggest we need to go through any kind of triangulation to speak with God (that is, that we need to ask St Peter, or Mary, etc... to ask Jesus for us), we can speak directly to Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Revivalusa238

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I would have thought that 1Cor15:23 tells us the story about who and who is not in Heaven. the dead are certainly not. If they were, they would not need to be raised up.

As for the traditions being followed, they are not Orthodox traditions. that claim so out of context it make one wonder which bible they reading. Jesus told the Jews that they were making the word of God of no effect by their traditions. Paul, when he wrote about the traditions to keep he was referring to those of the first church, which was a full gospel Pentecostal church. For about 150 years there were no other churches or doctrines in existence other than the day of Pentecost doctrines.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more reward for the memory of them is forgotten.

I would expect that the above verse means ALL dead, not just O.T. dead. Praying to a saint therefore achieves absolutely nothing, sorry.
 
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kepha31

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It is my understanding that the position of the Roman Catholic Church is that they are not praying 'to' the saints, but asking the saints to pray on their behalf. I could be wrong, and apologize in advance if so.
No, you are correct.

To me, the involvement of saints is superfluous (unnecessary) as one of the key differences from the old covenant to the new covenant is that we can now directly talk to God (with the old covenant, there was a high priest that would go into the temple on behalf of the people).
King Saul talked to the dead prophet Samuel (1 Sam 28:12-15)
When Jesus died on the cross, the curtain was torn, showing that this "barrier" no longer exists.
It was not a barrier preventing people from praying for each other. If you want to talk about barriers, talk about the unbiblical "Berlin Wall" erected by the man made tradition of dividing the family of God into two separate families.
This is also supported with 1 Timothy 2:5:

1 Timothy 2:5 (ESV) states, "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should intercede: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
Jesus IS our high priest and I'm not aware of any scriptural references that suggest we need to go through any kind of triangulation to speak with God (that is, that we need to ask St Peter, or Mary, etc... to ask Jesus for us), we can speak directly to Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit.
It's not a triangulation, and yes, we can and should pray directly to God. I suggest you attend a Catholic Mass and find out for yourself how much "directly to God" goes on there.
Asking Saints to Intercede: Clear Teaching of Jesus

Dialogue: "Why pray to a saint rather than to God?"
 
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Instrument150

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I think we must also consider that the saints already speak to us on a daily basis through words which God has deemed as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Does a particular saint appeal to your talents, skills, interests, abilities? Good. Go and see what stuff he had to say that God said you should. Everything else this person says falls short of that glory
 
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kepha31

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The building of a kind of "Berlin Wall" between the saints in heaven and the saints on earth is an unbiblical tradition of men and not found anywhere in Scripture.

Romans 8:38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Does God have a separate love for those in heaven from those on earth?
 
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Praying to Mary or to any Saint in Heaven

By Tim Staples

All of this would be avoidable if we remembered or Jewish theological heritage and discard the imposed Greek thinking that allows us to think that people can consciously live in a floaty existence without a physical ressurection from the dead.
 
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kepha31

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No one is expected to pray to saints, it's not mandatory. If you don't believe it, that's up to you. But you can't say there is no scriptural support for the practice. There is plenty there and it developed further in the post-biblical era.

catacomb_intercession.jpg

Catacomb of St. Sebastiano with chards of prayers to saints

From as early as the second century (between 100 AD- 200 AD) to the fourth century the evidence from the catacombs make an overwhelming argument that such a practice stemmed from ancient Judaism and passed down by Peter and Paul, the prayers were very similar as in the Scriptures
The Most Powerful Evidence To Prove That Prayers To Saints Is Part Of Christianity
 
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Luke 1:48
"For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

Prophecy

Forgive me...

Yet many Protestants of the evangelical and fundamentalist kind seem to hate her
 
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disciple1

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Praying to Mary or to any Saint in Heaven

By Tim Staples

Luke chapter 1 verse 42
In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!

Notice where it says among women.
I would guess you could pray to Jesus.

But praying to somebody God didn't say was a saint is a waste of time, and even if he did say they were a saint, why would you pray to them.

I don't believe there is a saint until I get to Gods kingdom, and he tells me someone is.


Just because someone says a person is a saint doesn't mean the are.


Romans chapter 2 verse 29
No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God.
 
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Alithis

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Luke 1:48
"For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

Prophecy

Forgive me...
Yes and as are all who have entered his salvation are called blessed.it means happy .
It in no way means we violate his word.
But you care nothing for that.
 
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kepha31

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Yes and as are all who have entered his salvation are called blessed.it means happy .
It in no way means we violate his word.
I was not aware that archangels appear to "all who have entered his salvation" and announce to each believer they will give birth to the Messiah. There is no need to invent a false dichotomy, all are blessed. We have the audacity to believe that Jesus'mother played a required role in God's plan of salvation, meaning she is blessed among all women, and of course, Full of Grace.
 
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46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
 
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