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praying in tongues glossolia

Goatee

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Exactly!

Speaking in tongues is about speaking in 'known' languages! Not gibberish!

You see it where all these people are going crazy repeating the same 'noise' 'unknown word' over and over and over! Complete gibberish!
 
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Biblicist

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Exactly!

Speaking in tongues is about speaking in 'known' languages! Not gibberish!
No, speaking in tongues is about speaking in the language of Angels (the heavenly language), it has nothing to do with gibberish.

You see it where all these people are going crazy repeating the same 'noise' 'unknown word' over and over and over! Complete gibberish!
Now I do recall hearing people do this several decades ago (they were probably only ex-cessationist newbies) but with what I have heard over the years our Angelic tongue sounds more pure than many human tongues. Without wishing to offend anyone, I know that my Anglo ears can easily go into meltdown when I am surrounded by people from certain East Asian cultures, it almost becomes unbearable but I have no doubt that our English language could sound this way to them as well.
 
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Goatee

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No, speaking in tongues is about speaking in the language of Angels (the heavenly language), it has nothing to do with gibberish.


Now I do recall hearing people do this several decades ago (they were probably only ex-cessationist newbies) but with what I have heard over the years our Angelic tongue sounds more pure than many human tongues. Without wishing to offend anyone, I know that my Anglo ears can easily go into meltdown when I am surrounded by people from certain East Asian cultures, it almost becomes unbearable but I have no doubt that our English language could sound this way to them as well.

How do you know what the language of the Angels sounds like?
 
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Biblicist

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How do you know what the language of the Angels sounds like?
That's easy . . . I get to hear what the language of Angels sounds like each time that I pray in the Spirit; [pause for prayer], yep, that's what it sounds like.
 
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swordsman1

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No, speaking in tongues is about speaking in the language of Angels (the heavenly language), it has nothing to do with gibberish.

Where in scripture does it say the gift of tongues is the language of angels? The only description I can see says it is the languages of men.
 
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Goatee

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That's easy . . . I get to hear what the language of Angels sounds like each time that I pray in the Spirit; [pause for prayer], yep, that's what it sounds like.

Sorry but that is so so wrong! You are fooling yourself and making a mockery of Christianity and the words in the Bible!

Gibberish. Thats the only 'noise' that comes out of you and others that presume to 'speak in tongues'.

I bet the devil is having a field day with you lot. Be very careful my friend.
 
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Goatee

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Where in scripture does it say the gift of tongues is the language of angels? The only description I can see says it is the languages of men.

Exactly!! The Apostles spoke in 'known' languages when they spoke in tongues!
 
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Alithis

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As you are apparently "still in the process" of sorting things out with the Lord, I will leave this alone as a public forum might not always be the best way to go. But when it comes to being enabled to pray in the Spirit (tongues), then this is something that the Holy Spirit will enable any Believer to do if they so desire. To be able to praise God through the power of the Holy Spirit is a great way to release those inner tensions, where our ability to simply stand before the Lord (or even while driving a car) is a wonderful way to allow the Holy Spirit to speak words of praise to the Father on our behalf.

As for having the Holy Spirit interceding on our behalf in tongues, this is another matter, but to be able to freely praise God in the Spirit should be your first aim.

As for the other 8 Manifestations of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:8-10), I would leave them alone for now where I would recommend that you first sort things out with the Lord and then quickly seek to be enabled to allow the Holy Spirit to speak words of praise to the Father.
As he claims to be trying to return to the Lord
I've already recommended the command to repent .

As to your comments on tongues I agree more and more.. :)
 
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BiggsandWedge

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Exactly!

Speaking in tongues is about speaking in 'known' languages! Not gibberish!

You see it where all these people are going crazy repeating the same 'noise' 'unknown word' over and over and over! Complete gibberish!
I have to agree with you, tongues are known languages. The glossolalia that's popular today is mere gibberish.

However, the spiritual gift of tongues is not all of the sudden receiving the tongue of another language either. Reading out loud literal record of the Bible is speaking in the heavenly tongue, and interpreting the Bible with the Bible, spiritual thoughts with spiritual words is the interpretation of the tongue. The heavenly tongue is the Word of God. Could you say that you truly understand the Word when you read it literally? You must also consider Isaiah 55:8, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.

Because our thoughts are not God's thoughts, we cannot simply interpret the Bible however we want. If we want the truth, then we must interpret spiritual thoughts with spiritual words (1 Corinthians 2:13, NASB), as I mentioned earlier; this is revealing the voice of the Spirit of Truth!

If you want to know more, I encourage you to listen carefully to this Word I link below. It even contains a short segment in which some people expose the "spiritual tongues" they were taught in previous churches.

 
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Biblicist

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Exactly!! The Apostles spoke in 'known' languages when they spoke in tongues!
Actually no! Now the Twelve certainly did on the Day of Pentecost but as Paul was not present on this particular day then as far as we know he has only ever spoken in Angelic tongues. As I could not see any reason for the Holy Spirit speaking through him in a known human language then we can probably presume that he never did.
 
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Biblicist

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The heavenly tongue is the Word of God. Could you say that you truly understand the Word when you read it literally? You must also consider Isaiah 55:8, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
After all these years having heard many cessationist arguments and work-arounds, I don't think that I have ever come across your rather imaginative explanation, but I think that I will probably leave your very creative work to the side.
 
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Biblicist

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As he claims to be trying to return to the Lord
I've already recommended the command to repent .

As to your comments on tongues I agree more and more.. :)
G'day! Yes it can be a bit awkward discussing the content of the original post on a public forum, where at times the forum can produce more harm than good.
 
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Alithis

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I have to agree with you, tongues are known languages. The glossolalia that's popular today is mere gibberish.

However, the spiritual gift of tongues is not all of the sudden receiving the tongue of another language either. Reading out loud literal record of the Bible is speaking in the heavenly tongue, and interpreting the Bible with the Bible, spiritual thoughts with spiritual words is the interpretation of the tongue. The heavenly tongue is the Word of God. Could you say that you truly understand the Word when you read it literally? You must also consider Isaiah 55:8, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.

Because our thoughts are not God's thoughts, we cannot simply interpret the Bible however we want. If we want the truth, then we must interpret spiritual thoughts with spiritual words (1 Corinthians 2:13, NASB), as I mentioned earlier; this is revealing the voice of the Spirit of Truth!<snip>
Let me guess..you don't speak in tongues...right?
 
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Goatee

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1 Corinthians 14:18-19
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all; 19 nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

What makes you think Paul was speaking in an Angelic language?
 
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swordsman1

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Actually no! Now the Twelve certainly did on the Day of Pentecost but as Paul was not present on this particular day then as far as we know he has only ever spoken in Angelic tongues. As I could not see any reason for the Holy Spirit speaking through him in a known human language then we can probably presume that he never did.

Seeing as Paul equates tongues to foreign human languages in 1 Cor 14:21-22 I rather think the opposite is true.
 
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Goatee

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Let me guess..you don't speak in tongues...right?

You do and do you understand what you are supposedly saying? Why would God want you to utter Gibberish when it is of no use to you? What purpose does it serve? Makes you feel all fuzzy?
 
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Goatee

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1 Corinthians 14:21-22
21 In the law it is written, “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” 22 Thus, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.

Exactly. He is not on about speaking in Gibberish!!!
 
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BiggsandWedge

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After all these years having heard many cessationist arguments and work-arounds, I don't think that I have ever come across your rather imaginative explanation, but I think that I will probably leave your very creative work to the side.
Quite far from imaginative, I only spoke on what it says in the Bible. You should really consider taking a listen, there's no imagination involved ;)
 
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LinkH

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So, I do not believe that the Spirit of God gives today gifts of prophecies
and tongues as He gave them in the early Church.
Moreover there is no need for such prophecies today.

We should believe what the Bible teaches on the matter.

Acts 2:7
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Since we are in the last days, we should expect there to be genuine prophecies these days.

Your believe system can easily lead to disobedience to scripture such as:

I Thessalonians 5:20
Despise not prophesyings.

I Corinthians 14
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.


I will explain you what I think.
My point is:
1. Everything is said. There is no need for any new prophecies.

The Bible does not teach this. Prophecies still edify, comfort, and exhort people. Some eschatologies require that the two witnesses, who will prophesy, come in the future. It is ironic to me that some people who believe that will argue as you do.

2. God does not talk to people DIRECTLY and in audible voice today as to Moses or Isaiah or Daniel..or other prophets.
Why? God talked to Moses and prophets DIRECTLY, after this communication with God, the prophets went to Israel and communicated/gave them
what God said.

Your arguments do not support your conclusion.

3. If a christian claims that God talked to him directly and said something then any claim of such christian
on behalf of God will be judged by Him. You know that already. Moreover, our madhouses are full of patients who claim that they constantly talk to 'god' or hear voices
in head.

Some of the worst atheist dictators who killed lots of people did not believe God speaks today.

The issue is what the Bible teaches. Sure, there are mad men who claim to believe in God. That doesn't make theism wrong. There may be mad men who think God speaks to them. That doesn't mean God no longer speakers to men who are not mad.

Cessationism teaches that the revelatory gifts (tongues and prophecy) have ceased to be given to the church by the Holy Spirit after the completion of the New Testament canon. The following is a list of reasons why I have become a cessationist.

Reason 1 - The Scriptures Are Sufficient For Every Good Work

2 Timothy 3:16-17 says, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." This passage explains that the scriptures are sufficient for our sanctification. It doesn't say that the scriptures equip us for some works, but we need the gifts of tongues or prophecy to really experience super spirituality. It says that the scriptures are sufficient to equip us for every good work.

I wonder if cessationists categorically suffer from dyslexia, thinking the verse says that "Scripture is all that is given..."

Just simple logic shows the fallacy of this argument. We could say a US soldier is given a rifle that he might be fully equipped. That's true, but he is also given bullets, the stuff that go in the rifle, along with the uniform, helmet, etc. It is true that the rifle is given that he may be fully equipped. Stating such is not stating that the rifle is all he needs.

Consider this also. Would any Christian draw the following conclusions from that verse?

"We don't need love because we have the scriptures."
"We don't need faith because we have the scriptures."
"We don't need water baptism because we have the scriptures."
"We don't need to abstain from because we have the scriptures."

If the scriptures make you 'fully equipped', then does that mean we don't need love, faith, water, baptism, or to abstain from fornication? No! The scripture teaches us we need those things.

But why do some cessationists apply the exact same reasoning and argue
"We don't need certain spiritual gifts because we have the scriptures."

Another problem with this cessationist interpretation is that if II Timothy 3 did away with prophecy, tongues, and healing, then II Timothy 4 would not have been inspired and neither would the books written after it. Chapter 1 already tells Timothy to stir up the spiritual gift that is in him by the laying on of Paul's hands. Why would Timothy have only needed the gift for the five or ten minutes it took to get to chapter 3?

Reason 2 - The Scriptures Are Sufficient For Salvation

The scriptures are also sufficient for saving souls. Romans 1:16 says, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek." Those who would promote so called "power evangelism" argue that the gifts are important evangelistic tools. They would argue that miracles and demonstrations of the power of God would cause someone to believe in the gospel. In the story of the rich man and Lazarus, told by Jesus in Luke 16, the rich man in hell begs Abraham to send Lazarus "to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment" (vs. 27b-28). Abraham then says "They have Moses and the prophets". The rich man argued the same argument as "power evangelists" do today. "No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent" (vs. 30). Abraham's reply is this, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead." So miracles do nothing to save the lost. God must first perform a sovereign work of regeneration before someone can believe.

This displays ignorance of the Bible. That verse doesn't say miracles never play a role in saving souls. Jesus also said, "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye shall not believe." Then He did a miracle. That disproves the argument quoted above. We see numerous examples of this. For example, Sergius Paulus believed after he saw Elymas being struck blind.

Jesus also told Thomas to put his finger in his hands and his hand in his side and be not faithless but believing. He did miss out on the blessing he would have had if he had believed without seeing the risen Christ.

Believing after seeing miracles does not preclude a sovereign work of God. That's a false dichotomy.

The author you quote needs to study his Bible more carefully and believe it.

Reason 3 - The Scriptures Are Complete

Hebrews 1:1-2 says the following:

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

The Greek word elalesen (spoken) is an aorist tense verb. The aorist tense indicates an action that has been completed in the past.

Foolish line of reasoning. That word is going to be in the aorist whether one is cessationist or continuationist. The use of the aorist does not prove cessationism. The passage doesn't say God no longer speaks. That's like taking a verse that says Jesus ate fish and using it to 'prove' no one ever ate fish again or that fish no longer exist. It's just really foolish reasoning.
 
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Biblicist

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Seeing as Paul equates tongues to foreign human languages in 1 Cor 14:21-22 I rather think the opposite is true.
I would have thought that the obvious and plain meaning of what Paul was saying should be apparent to all?

1Cor 14:20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature. 21 In the Law it is written, “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to Me,” says the Lord. 22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
In chapter 14 Paul has very carefully developed his key theme where he demands that intelligibility is the goal during the congregational meeting; even though Paul soon states (vss. 28-33) that we may provide three prophesies and three words of praise in tongues to the Lord, he first stipulates (through the Lord) that we are not to permit the unarticulated use of tongues within our corporate meetings, where every single instance of tongues (to a max. of three) are to be articulated.

In verses 21-22 he is connecting the untranslated/unarticulated use of tongues with the voices and commands of the Syrian invaders who captured Jerusalem and took the Jews prisoner. As the Jews could not understand the commands that they were being given, this would have angered the invading soldiers who more often than not would have used the sword to punish those who did not obey them. For the unsaved (and the cessationist), when they encounter the things of the Spirit and particularly when the Holy Spirit speaks through Believers to the Father, this will only confuse both as neither understand the things of the Spirit. Paul has linked the confusion of those who do not understand the things of the Holy Spirit with the confusion that the Jews faced when they did not understand what the foriegn invaders were saying - where both end up unintentionally becoming a form of judgment.

 
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