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Prayer works?

Mark Quayle

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James 1: 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
Yes, I am more than aware of that verse, having read it many times for myself, nevermind being told it countless times by those who disagree with me. The fact that God intended that there be sin (part of what it took to complete his "final product") for the purpose of redeeming a people for himself, to be the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ, the Children of God, the Dwelling Place of God, DOES NOT IMPLY that he tempts anyone.

If you are very familiar with Scripture, you will find multiple places that are hard for you to digest, if you think that His being First Cause leaves anything open to chance, and that he cannot cause that there be sin. Did he not intend the sin again Joseph for good? Did he not incite Satan against Job? Did he not incite a lying spirit against Ahab? Did he not pre-cause the death of his own Son? Yes —even that (Acts 2:23). God is not tame. He doesn't fit himself to our notions.

Did you think that the fall of Lucifer was by accident?
 
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Always in His Presence

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Yes, I am more than aware of that verse, having read it many times for myself, nevermind being told it countless times by those who disagree with me. The fact that God intended that there be sin (part of what it took to complete his "final product") for the purpose of redeeming a people for himself, to be the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ, the Children of God, the Dwelling Place of God, DOES NOT IMPLY that he tempts anyone.

If you are very familiar with Scripture, you will find multiple places that are hard for you to digest, if you think that His being First Cause leaves anything open to chance, and that he cannot cause that there be sin. Did he not intend the sin again Joseph for good? Did he not incite Satan against Job? Did he not incite a lying spirit against Ahab? Did he not pre-cause the death of his own Son? Yes —even that (Acts 2:23). God is not tame. He doesn't fit himself to our notions.

Did you think that the fall of Lucifer was by accident?
Great topic for another thread - open one and I will readily jump in - not deflecting, I just really do not want to get this one off prayer. Thanks.
 
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Always in His Presence

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I haven't read Calvin, except (for the most part) what his opponents post concerning him. I don't very much care about his theology and stance.
***Off topic observation*** How does one self identify as a reformed Calvinist if one has not read Calvin? Hmmm...? ****end off topic observation
 
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Mark Quayle

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***Off topic observation*** How does one self identify as a reformed Calvinist if one has not read Calvin? Hmmm...? ****end off topic observation
Read more closely, more carefully.
 
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Aviel

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How do you know it is God changing the circumstance? Maybe it is God doing what he had planned all along to do, including planning for you to pray.

Did you ever read where Jesus "cast a devil into someone"?

Did you ever read where Jesus caused someone to have Cancer, Leprosy, or any sickness"?

Is Jesus "The same Yesterday, Today, and Forever"?

Did Jesus say...>"if you've seen Me, you've seen the FATHER"?

Did Jesus say, "If I do the works of my Father".. then believe in me?

So, there is Jesus doing only Good, only Healing, and that is God's Work.

So, when CALVIN teaches you that God causes Evil, like Sickness, and Torment, and Sorrow... then remember that He is Lying about God.

So, don't do the same, Reader.
 
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Aviel

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Maybe it is God doing what he had planned all along to do,
Now,

Here is what the Devil will do to you.
He'll cause you to follow a man, who denied Truth and He will cause you to believe that God wants you to suffer and die.

What i mean by that is...

This famous Teacher of Cross Rejecting Lies, will have you believing that if you get Sick, or your Child, or your Mother, then God want's that....
So, you'll not pray, you'll not get God involved in the SOLUTION.
And THAT is what the Devil wants, and THAT is what a certain THEOLOGIAN has created as the broken faith of multiplied Billions of People since He made it up and sold it as HIS Theology.
 
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Neostarwcc

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I'm living, breathing proof that prayer definitely works. God has saved my life on multiple occasions thanks to people praying for me. My grandmother is now 92 and has had cancer since I was in high school (I'm 38 today). People on CF have been praying for her over the years and she is still alive and outlived all of my other grandparents and even some of her own children. So, yes I believe prayer works! God continues to heal and provide miracles even today, if not the case I wouldn't have even lived for five minutes let alone 38 years.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Does prayer work? By "work" I mean "produce the desired (asked for) results".
How do you know?

If we imagine that prayer is a formula of do X to get Y, that it is a kind of formulaic way of bending the universe to get what we want or invoking the divine to get what we want then we are engaging in magic, or at the very least we are thinking and acting like pagans.

Pagans did this, their religious practice was based upon the premise of doing things to get what we want, say these invocations, use these talismans, offer sacrifice to the gods, etc and we will get a better harvest, or we can stave off disaster, or we can have better healthy, a happier family, have better chances at having children, or ward off the evil eye, etc.

And this very clearly isn't how Christians are supposed to do things. That is precisely the "vain repetitions of the Gentiles" that Jesus wants us to avoid. As though prayer is some kind of automatic, magical, formulaic invocation that can be used to gain divine favor and/or bend the universe to get what we want. That we can, in some way, impose our will upon the world if we do or say the right things.

So our Lord teaches us how to pray, and how does He teach us to pray?

"Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name, Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

We pray by recognizing that not only is God already the one who is in control--He already reigns in the heavens, but we submit ourselves humbly to the fact that this is so. And we pray that this same Reign of God come and His will be done here--we pray that God do what He wills to do, that He be the One in control. We do not pray "My will" but "Thy will". We are not trying to bend or influence God, we are not seeking to bend the universe to our will--we are seeking to bend ourselves, we are the ones who need to be changed, to be bent and orientated toward the way and will and kingdom of God.

So that when we continue, "Give us this day our supersubstantial bread, forgive us our trespasses even as we forgive others their trespasses, keep us from the time of trial, and deliver us from evil" this is not imposing our will, but seeking the will of God.

God is the One who provides and sustains us, we pray that God keep us and sustain us as He promised He would; His provision is what we need day to day. We know He forgives us, for He is the God of all mercy and we have beheld the mercy and forgiveness He so richly and abundantly pours out through Christ who suffered and died for us--may we therefore forgive. God change me, bend me, you forgive me I should forgive others, give me the heart to forgive. Keep us from the time of trial, we trust in Him who saves and preserves us, deliver us from evil--keep us, preserve us, save us--for He in His love and good mercy says He will.

We are the ones who are to be changed, to be bent toward His way and will, to be aligned with Him. Our Lord invites us to come before God as our Father who already desires what is good for us, because He loves us, and to patiently wait on Him, to be shaped by Him, to be changed by Him, that our lives should be conformed to Him.

Prayer is not about getting what I want. And so prayer does not "work" in the sense of a kind of magical invocation to manipulate cosmic or supernatural forces to get what I want. Prayer is about how I need God, and that we as God's people are to be a people who represent, reflect, and are bent toward God's way and will.

Our Lord's Prayer, as He has taught us, is a prayer of how I must in all ways be subject to God who already desires what is good and knows what is best for me--I may not understand it, I may not appreciate what I go through in the moment; but God is indeed working (as Paul says) all things toward the good for those who love Him. I may experience all manner of terrible things in this life, and there is no wrong in praying, "God save me from this suffering" but more important is that even when I do suffer, I trust in God and remember His promises, and that ultimately God's kingdom and will prevails.

May His kingdom come now, even as it shall come on that Last Day.
May His will be done now, for His will shall be accomplished in full.
For I shall, by His mercy, pass through death into life, passing through judgment by mercy alone.

And at long last evil and wickedness shall pass away, and the good shall be established--may God keep me and preserve me, that I may see that Day, and rest in the everlasting sabbath of God's justice and mercy which is in Christ our Lord.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Aviel

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Genesis 50:20 "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives."

The "you" is not God.

Acts 2:23 "This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge;

You are not Jesus in that situation. @Mark Quayle .

Didn't you know?

2 Kings 15:5 "The Lord afflicted the king with leprosy until the day he died, and he lived in a separate house."

OT old covenant, and you are not a King in the OT that is in that situation.

By the way, your delivery is at best hyperbole,

My "delivery" is based on the Fact that Messiah said that He did the "works" of the "Father" .... and every thing He did was to HEAL or Restore.

He's the same Jesus "today, yesterday, and forever".
 
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Mark Quayle

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Mark Quayle said:
Genesis 50:20 "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives."
The "you" is not God.
This really is not even worth answering. But, just in case you are in a listening mode for a change...

I didn't say the "you" was God. But it WAS God who intended the evil that Joseph's brothers did.

Mark Quayle said:
Acts 2:23 "This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge;
You are not Jesus in that situation. @Mark Quayle .

Didn't you know?
Of course I'm not Jesus in that situation! Where in the world did you come up with that??

Mark Quayle said:
2 Kings 15:5 "The Lord afflicted the king with leprosy until the day he died, and he lived in a separate house."
OT old covenant, and you are not a King in the OT that is in that situation.
What does me not being God, not being Jesus and not being a King have to do with anything? "Well, no, [this] is not right— [it isn't] even wrong!"



Mark Quayle said:
By the way, your delivery is at best hyperbole,
My "delivery" is based on the Fact that Messiah said that He did the "works" of the "Father" .... and every thing He did was to HEAL or Restore.

He's the same Jesus "today, yesterday, and forever".
So the relevant passages I quoted, showing that God did the things you say he did not, are what —lies?
 
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RileyG

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Aviel

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Mark Quayle said:
Acts 2:23 "This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge;

Yes, Jesus was sent to die on the Cross.

So, is that you?
Maybe you think so.. @Mark Quayle .


But let me show you what Calvin can't show you.

Notice what Jesus said..

"Not MY WILL, but your's be done".

See the 2 "wills"?

That is Jesus, who has His will, submitting to the Father, who has "His Will".

And Jesus points out that that God could change His Will..... which is why He Asked God to "let this cup pass from me".

So, Jesus accepted HIS FATHER will, and submitted His free will in obedience.

This means that Jesus didn't have to go to the Cross, but Chose to go.

A.) Free will

And that is the same as.. "take up YOUR Cross, daily"... as that is YOUR Choice......

AA.) Free Will

Now, deceived Calvin, could not understand any of this, and that is why he falsely redefined "Foreknowledge" as "Pre-destined" and from that incredible error, arose Calvinism that is a demonic bane to all who are associated with it.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Yes, Jesus was sent to die on the Cross.

So, is that you?
Maybe you think so.. @Mark Quayle .


But let me show you what Calvin can't show you.

Notice what Jesus said..

"Not MY WILL, but your's be done".

See the 2 "wills"?

That is Jesus, who has His will, submitting to the Father, who has "His Will".

And Jesus points out that that God could change His Will..... which is why He Asked God to "let this cup pass from me".

So, Jesus accepted HIS FATHER will, and submitted His free will in obedience.

This means that Jesus didn't have to go to the Cross, but Chose to go.

A.) Free will

And that is the same as.. "take up YOUR Cross, daily"... as that is YOUR Choice......

AA.) Free Will

Now, deceived Calvin, could not understand any of this, and that is why he falsely redefined "Foreknowledge" as "Pre-destined" and from that incredible error, arose Calvinism that is a demonic bane to all who are associated with it.
Who is Calvin? I don't care about Calvin. Don't bother waxing poetic about Calvin.

I know very well that Jesus chose to go. (I'm guessing that even your beloved Calvin would say the same!) But that is a red herring, irrelevant to the argument.

If you could show me that what happened to Jesus was not sinful or not evil, then maybe you would have an argument. Or if you could demonstrate that the verse does not mean that God intended for this evil to be done to Jesus, then you might have an argument, but instead, all you give me is a red herring. Thanks, though —they are tasty!
 
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Aviel

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Who is Calvin? I

He's someone who trains people to believe that the Devil is on Vacation, and everything that is bad that happens in the world or happens to you, is because God caused it.

Calvin is the enemy of Faith.

How so.?

Well, if a person is led of Calvin to believe that all that happens is pre-destined, and lets say...... that this person's child gets brain cancer.
"rapid cell"......and they are going to die in about 2 months.

Well, how can you BELIEVE GOD and do what God says to do....... = "without FAITH its impossible to please God"...

So, how can you TRUST in GOD and TRUST in CHRIST for the child's healing if CALVIN has convinced the person that "God predestined" this to happen.

So, the Child dies, as the parent can't BELIEVE God for Healing as they BELIEVE God caused it..

See that?

If you could show me that what happened to Jesus was not sinful or not evil,

If you need someone to show you that the Reason God gave Jesus as : John 3:16.......

If you can't understand the Love of God, as Christ's sacrifice for your sin, then i'd say, you have something you need to work out, in your thinking, regarding how you perceive of Jesus's death that God provided for you, so that you can be forgiven your sin @Mark Quayle
 
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Clare73

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Yes, Jesus was sent to die on the Cross.
So, is that you?
Maybe you think so.. @Mark Quayle .
But let me show you what Calvin can't show you.
Notice what Jesus said..
"Not MY WILL, but your's be done".
See the 2 "wills"?
That is Jesus, who has His will, submitting to the Father, who has "His Will".
And Jesus points out that that God could change His Will..... which is why He Asked God to "let this cup pass from me".
So, Jesus accepted HIS FATHER will, and submitted His free will in obedience.
This means that Jesus didn't have to go to the Cross, but Chose to go.
A.) Free will
And that is the same as.. "take up YOUR Cross, daily"... as that is YOUR Choice......
AA.) Free Will
Now, deceived Calvin, could not understand any of this, and that is why he falsely redefined "Foreknowledge" as "Pre-destined" and from that incredible error, arose Calvinism that is a demonic bane to all who are associated with it.
Prognosis everywhere in the NT refers to God's foreknowledge of his own works,
which he has already decreed he shall do, and which is why he knows what is going to happen in the future. . .
because he himself has decreed that it shall happen.
 
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