Prayer works?

[BNR32FAN]

You infer from the fact that God knows all things, that he only knew, but did not cause Pharoah to be hard-hearted originally. So what? He did it anyway —hardened his heart SO THAT it would, according to your narrative, "make an example of him." You have proven nothing, nor even done more than assert what you believe. If God was not the originator of Pharoah's hard heart, how is it any different from if he was?

So here you would be saying that God caused Pharaoh’s disobedience instead of Pharaoh’s disobedience being the cause of God’s wrath upon him.

 

[Always in His Presence]

That is only a claim, a posit; and even though you seem to think that "He is the same yesterday today and forever." means that he doesn't act one way and then another, and even though you think that claim is relevant, you don't show how it is relevant. You are a long way from proving your version of free will and that God will not circumvent it.

I am more than happy to address this today after church.

FYI - My post it note came from here:

Hebrews 13:8 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

And it Literally means He doesn't change - He doesn't act one way and then another - because if He did - He would not be the same - would He?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I am more than happy to address this today after church.

FYI - My post it note came from here:

Hebrews 13:8 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

And it Literally means He doesn't change - He doesn't act one way and then another - because if He did - He would not be the same - would He?

He loves Jacob and hates Esau —is that the 'same'?

He is "a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm", yet he musters an army for the Day of the Lord, that will do awful things, "infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated." —is that the 'same'? (Jonah 4 & Isaiah 13)

First, I think you are arguing semantics. He pretty obviously "does" one thing and then another. But he is indeed the same yesterday, today and forever. The different things he does, the way WE see him acting, spring from what he IS. He does not change, but what he does, from our point of view, does look different at one point compared to another. Thus, your argument (that he doesn't act one way and then another) does not hold water.

But second, third and fourth, if you can show that he never acts one way and then another, you still have yet to show how that is relevant to the larger argument, and on top of that, to show how that proves your version of 'free will', and how that proves that God will not circumvent our wills.

 

[Clare73]

Can you please cite an example from Scripture?

The reason I am asking is that I believe Salvation is Gods greatest purposes, it is the reason Jesus died and rose again. Yet God does not circumvent man’s will when it comes to Salvation.

No fallen son of Adam wills salvation in Jesus Christ apart from God working in his will to give him to desire submission to God.

Example: Saul of Tarsus.

And God does not work in every man's will to give him that desire. (Jn 3:3-8)

 

[Always in His Presence]

He loves Jacob and hates Esau —is that the 'same'?

He is "a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm", yet he musters an army for the Day of the Lord, that will do awful things, "infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated." —is that the 'same'? (Jonah 4 & Isaiah 13)

First, I think you are arguing semantics. He pretty obviously "does" one thing and then another. But he is indeed the same yesterday, today and forever. The different things he does, the way WE see him acting, spring from what he IS. He does not change, but what he does, from our point of view, does look different at one point compared to another. Thus, your argument (that he doesn't act one way and then another) does not hold water.

But second, third and fourth, if you can show that he never acts one way and then another, you still have yet to show how that is relevant to the larger argument, and on top of that, to show how that proves your version of 'free will', and how that proves that God will not circumvent our wills.

I am versed in Calvin's theology and stance. We do not agree on many things.

My stance is that God's will never changes - If He is not willing that ANY should perish - then he in not willing.

I believe His Word. What He speaks is true and does not change.

 

[Clare73]

I am versed in Calvin's theology and stance. We do not agree on many things.

My stance is that God's will never changes - If He is not willing that ANY should perish - then he in not willing.

I believe His Word. What He speaks is true and does not change.

Except for that pesky little verse of Dt 29:29. . .the above being his revealed will, not his secret will.

 

[Always in His Presence]

No fallen son of Adam wills salvation in Jesus Christ apart from God working in his will to give him to desire submission to God.

Example: Saul of Tarsus.

And God does not work in every man's will to give him that desire. (Jn 3:3-8)

Romans 10: 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”​

​

Notice what is missing from your theological stance? The Holy Spirit through Paul says nothing about God's will being involved. Why is that? Perhaps because God's will regarding Salvation was already established.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.​

​

But while we are speaking of God's will always being done - let's take a look shall we?

Matt 23:37 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!​

​

Here is Jesus' words... God wanted (His will) to gather their children together - what stopped His will - they were not willing.

John 5:39 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.​

Need another? ok

When the Disciples wanted to know how to pray effectively - Jesus Himself told them this:

Matt 6:9 In this manner, therefore, pray:​

​

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.​

Question - if God's will is ALWAYS DONE - why would Jesus instruct His Disciples to pray that it would be done?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Except for that pesky little verse of Dt 29:29.

I wonder if you even read the verse you keep referring to:

Let's read it together

Dt 29:29 29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Now let's read the verses before then so we see the context of the verse you repeatedly quote:

DT 29:23 ‘The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the Lord overthrew in His anger and His wrath.’ 24 All nations would say, ‘Why has the Lord done so to this land? What does the heat of this great anger mean?’ 25 Then people would say: ‘Because they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt; 26 for they went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods that they did not know and that He had not given to them. 27 Then the anger of the Lord was aroused against this land, to bring on it every curse that is written in this book. 28 And the Lord uprooted them from their land in anger, in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.’​

​

Is God saying He has a secret will? Absolutely not. Is God demonstrating His will and how the people rejected His will? Absolutely yes.

I think you need to find another core verse for your position.

 

[Clare73]

Romans 10: 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”​

​

Notice what is missing from your theological stance? The Holy Spirit through Paul says nothing about God's will being involved.

Did I say "God's will"?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.​

But while we are speaking of God's will always being done - let's take a look shall we?

Matt 23:37 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!​

Here is Jesus' words... God wanted (His will) to gather their children together - what stopped his will - they were not willing.

It was the earthly Son who wanted to gather them, the same Son whose will was in full submission to the Father's will.

John 5:39 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.​

Need another? ok
When the Disciples wanted to know how to pray effectively - Jesus Himself told them this:

Matt 6:9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.​

Question - if God's will is ALWAYS DONE - why would Jesus instruct His Disciples to pray that it would be done?

Because God wills that some things be done only in response to prayer.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Did I say "God's will"?

That is what we have been speaking about in this thread - if you'd like a different topic - feel free to start another thread.

 

[Clare73]

That is what we have been speaking about in this thread - if you'd like a different topic - feel free to start another thread.

The thread is about prayer. . .

 

[Clare73]

I wonder if you even read the verse you keep referring to: Let's read it together
Dt 29:29 29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Is God saying He has a secret will? Absolutely not. Is God demonstrating His will and how the people rejected His will? Absolutely yes.
I think you need to find another core verse for your position.

Ro 11:33, Mt 24:36, Ac 1:7, 2 Co 12:4, Rev 10:4, Jn 21:22 present a different view.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The thread is about prayer. . .

That it is, God's will - secret or revealed - is a different topic.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Ro 11:33, Mt 24:36, Ac 1:7, 2 Co 12:4, Rev 10:4, Jn 21:22 present a different view.

Each of those when presented in context demonstrate they are not addressing some 'secret' will.

I understand your position - I've researched it years ago. IMHO - it fails miserably. Since you have not addressed any of the proof texts I have already presented, I have no reason to believe you will any other - the discussion is at an impasse.

Have a great day - I'm finished.

 

[Always in His Presence]

That it is, God's will - secret or revealed - is a different topic.

God's will is intrinsically intertwined with His will - it is plainly expressed in the Scripture I have repeatedly shown and it seems you have repeatedly ignored.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

God's will is intrinsically intertwined with His will

There is something redundantly tautological about that statement.

 

[Always in His Presence]

There is something redundantly tautological about that statement.

oh, you are reading my posts:

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

oh, you are reading my posts:

Yes, sometimes. Usually, the ones addressed to me.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I am versed in Calvin's theology and stance. We do not agree on many things.

My stance is that God's will never changes - If He is not willing that ANY should perish - then he in not willing.

I believe His Word. What He speaks is true and does not change.

I haven't read Calvin, except (for the most part) what his opponents post concerning him. I don't very much care about his theology and stance. God's will, as ours, is of more than one meaning (or use). His will concerning us is his command. His will concerning the ages is his plan (or decree) which is the end result and every detail in arriving there. Everything that happens, good and evil both, are by his decree. Obedience (and disobedience) concern his command. Both are called his will, in different contexts in Scripture.

Call it what you "will", there it is.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Everything that happens, good and evil both, are by his decree.

James 1: 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.