Prayer works?

[Aviel]

Prognosis everywhere in the NT refers to God's foreknowledge of his own works,

Incorrect.. again. as you are overlaying Calvinism.
You're filtering the NT through the lens of Calvinism.

Here is where Calvin lost his bearing and became confused.

He didnt understand "Fore-Knowledge" as the bible teaches it.

Like this....>"Knowing all things BE-FORE.. they happen".. = God's Foreknowledge.

The BIBLE has the same fore-knowledge...
The Bible, for example, shows us that the TRIBULATION is coming.. and that is not the BIBLE causing it...its the bible REVEALING IT>.

And THAT is "Fore-Knowledge".. as Fore-knowledge is to know what will happen NEXT..

Where CALVIN was confused, is that He misunderstood that KNOWING what is NEXT, is not the same as CAUSING IT to happen next.

So, he falsely redefined "Foreknowledge" as "pre-destined".. and created an entire theology that is based on His misunderstanding of the word "fore-Knowledge" or knowing before it happens..

See, KNOWING before it happens... is not the same as CAUSING it to happen.......and Calvin could not comprehend this...reality.

 

[Clare73]

Incorrect.. again.

BIblically demonstrate your assertion, or it has no merit.

 

[Clare73]

Incorrect.. again. as you are overlaying Calvinism.

That God's foreknowledge (prognosis) is of his own works has nothing to do with Calvin and everything to do with Scripture:

GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE: (as distinct from man's)
Ac 2:23: "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men (Gentiles), put him to death by nailing him to the cross."
Ac 4:28: "They did what your power and will foreordained (beforehand) should happen."

**In the two above verses, who determined the events God foreknew would happen to Jesus, was it man or God?

Is 48:3 - "I foretold the former things long ago, my mouth announced them, I made them known; then suddenly I acted; and they came to pass."
Is 37:26 - "Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass."

**In these two verses, who caused the events that God foreknew and foretold would happen, was it man or God?

Ac 15:18 - "Known to the Lord from all eternity are his works."

God's foreknowledge concerns events that God causes to happen.
And the elect "according to the foreknowledge of God" are elect because God causes (chooses) them to be so for his own purposes, just as he chose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

God knows in advance what is going to happen because God has willed that it shall happen.
So in the Bible, God's foreknowledge is about what God is going to do, not about what man is going to do.

So "those whom God foreknew" in the Bible means those whom God had chosen to infinitely love and determine their saving destiny in advance.
So that God's foreknowledge of the redeemed is an infinitely loving foreknowledge of them which saves.

In love - God chose to love us, not because of anything in us, not because we were lovable or worthy, but simply because he chose us (Dt 7:7).
God's infinite love for the redeemed is grounded in his goodness, not their goodness.
He loves them because he is good, not because they are good.
God's plan, before he ever created anything, was from the corrupted fallen, hopelessly lost human race, headed for eternal destruction, of which you were a part, he would save you . .(some, but not all).
So God chose us from all eternity before time ever began.

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," (John 15:16).

 

[Aviel]

BIblically demonstrate your assertion, or it has no merit.

"without faith, it is impossible to please God".


A Calvinist says...>"well God created evil, and so, if my child is sick, i dont pray, as it is pre-destined that my child have blood cancer".


See the issue?
Jesus told you to take your needs to the Lord in Prayer. To enter "boldly into the Throne of Grace, in time of NEED"..
Like NEEDING SOMEONE YOU LOVE to be HEALED.

Do you understand what im showing you @Clare73 ?

See.... Calvin has some believing that "there is no need to pray, as its pre-destined for them to be SICK AND DYING"

A.) Calvin is preventing you from having FAITH... He is preventing you from PRAYING.

 

[Aviel]

That God's foreknowledge (prognosis) is of his own works has nothing to do with Calvin and everything to do with Scripture:

The entire bible is "Scripture".

Everytime God offers prophetic knowledge, its SCRIPTURE< so, it absolutely has everything to do with SCRIPTURE.


So, here is where John Calvin lost control of his understanding..

A.) God's Fore-KNOWING... (Foreknowledge) is God KNOWING IT ALL before it happens.

That is not the same as God causing it all....(pre-destined).

So, Calvin could not understand that and so he FALSELY changed God's Knowing, (Foreknowledge).... into God CAUSING. (Pre-destined).

Calvin redefines "Foreknowledge" as "pre-destined"..

That is redefining KNOWING... as CAUSING.. and that is the root error of Calvinism, as it led to all the other.

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," (John 15:16).

That verse is given before Jesus died on the Cross, and its talking only to the Apostles.

Jesus also said of THEM..."and all You have given me, i have lost NONE of them, save JUDAS"..

So, your verse is not talking to CHRISTIANS, as there were NONE when Jesus said that..= about His Apostles who were His DISCIPLES>.. not His Christians.

 

[Aviel]

God's foreknowledge concerns events that God causes to happen.

God's foreknowledge concerns everything that will happen next.

There is nothing future hidden from God's NOW knowing.

But that is not the same as God causing it to happen next.

God KNEW i would become a Christian, but I chose it, .. and HE KNEW i would.

God didnt choose me to believe.......God only knew i would. (Fore-Knowledge).. Knowledge of ALL things, that happen next... before they happen next.

That's GOD's Fore-Knowledge.

Im going to practice an Acoustic Guitar later....
And before i was born, God knew i would do it, today, at that time.
He is not causing it.....as im deciding it while im writing you this post.

He KNEW I would......but i chose it........and He know i would.

See, im not "PRE-DESTINED" to play the guitar today....as i can choose not to, if i so CHOOSE.

And whatever i CHOOSE NEXT.......God knew i would.....but He didnt predestine it.
He only Foreknew it....

IM the Decider, and God is the KNOWER.

FREE WILL is CHOICE.
That's how you know you have it.

 

[Clare73]

"without faith, it is impossible to please God".

Does not relate to your assertion.

A Calvinist says...>"well God created evil, and so, if my child is sick, i dont pray, as it is pre-destined that my child have blood cancer".

Demonstration of this assertion?

 

[Clare73]

The entire bible is "Scripture".

Everytime God offers prophetic knowledge, its SCRIPTURE< so, it absolutely has everything to do with SCRIPTURE.

So, here is where John Calvin lost control of his understanding..

Does not address the post to which it is responding, #123.

 

[Clare73]

God's foreknowledge concerns everything that will happen next.

And everything that will happen next is according to God's decree.

Do a Biblical search on the Greek word "prognosis" in the NT.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
Who is Calvin? I

He's someone who trains people to believe that the Devil is on Vacation, and everything that is bad that happens in the world or happens to you, is because God caused it.

Calvin is the enemy of Faith.

How so.?

Well, if a person is led of Calvin to believe that all that happens is pre-destined, and lets say...... that this person's child gets brain cancer.
"rapid cell"......and they are going to die in about 2 months.

Well, how can you BELIEVE GOD and do what God says to do....... = "without FAITH its impossible to please God"...

So, how can you TRUST in GOD and TRUST in CHRIST for the child's healing if CALVIN has convinced the person that "God predestined" this to happen.

So, the Child dies, as the parent can't BELIEVE God for Healing as they BELIEVE God caused it..

See that?

Apparently you miss my obvious point. What Calvin believed has no power over me. I am not a disciple of Calvin. Understand yet? I really don't care what you think of Calvin. It is irrelevant.

Mark Quayle said:
If you could show me that what happened to Jesus was not sinful or not evil,

If you need someone to show you that the Reason God gave Jesus as : John 3:16.......

If you can't understand the Love of God, as Christ's sacrifice for your sin, then i'd say, you have something you need to work out, in your thinking, regarding how you perceive of Jesus's death that God provided for you, so that you can be forgiven your sin @Mark Quayle

Moving the goalposts again? I didn't ask if God did not intend it for good, and have a good reason to predestine it. It is obvious that he did. You aren't answering the obvious question. It was an evil deed done to Jesus, and God planned it, per Acts 2:23. Thus, to return to the argument, God does indeed specifically plan for evil things to happen, and yes, he does so for good.

 

[Clare73]

God's foreknowledge concerns everything that will happen next.

Again, does not address post #123.

 

[Aviel]

Demonstration of this assertion?

"Pre-destination".

"Calvinism"

 

[Clare73]

"Pre-destination".

"Calvinism"

Have never seen either presented there.

 

[Aviel]

Have never seen either presented there.

Ive presented it to you about 10x

But you can deny it.

np.

 

[Clare73]

Ive presented it to you about 10x

But you can deny it.

np.

Are you "Pre-destination" and "Calviism" themselves?
Where is your textually substantiated post demonstrating your assertions regarding them?

You have presented no textual references from either of the above which demonstrates your assertions of posts #121 and #127,
nor have you addressed post #123.

 

[Aviel]

You have presented no textual references from either of the above which demonstrates your assertions of posts #121 and #127,
nor have you addressed post #123.

Its true that i dont cut and paste.

But, i have answered your questions.

Calvin's theology that is known as "TULIP", is based on a few verses that he filtered through his misunderstanding regarding "God's Foreknowledge".

He absolutely did not understand that God Knowing everything, before it happens, is not the same as God causing everything.

So, if we apply Calvin's misunderstanding to Salvation, or to the effects of Gravity on a Glacier......its the same wrong end result, definition.

And he was deceived by his lack of understanding regarding not being able to comprehend that God KNOWING ALL, is not the same as causing, that his entire theology ends up limiting God's salvation, which is the same as denying it.

Notice again...

The BIBLE is "foreknowledge"..., starting with Genesis it tells us what is going to happen..

And that is not the Bible CAUSING it to happen......its the Bible REVEALING IT....


So, shifting back now to the Thread's topic..

Reader....If Calvin has you believing that whatever happens to you, bad or good or horrible, is "meant to be" then this will not allow you to trust God in Prayer, by Faith.
And that is the devil's work.
The Devil wants you to believe that "its all meant to be"... while Jesus tells us to PRAY so that we can be delivered, healed, restored.

 

[Mark Quayle]

He absolutely did not understand that God Knowing everything, before it happens, is not the same as God causing everything.

Can you demonstrate, logically, that God knowing everything before it happens, and before he created, yet he went ahead and created what resulted in everything happening, is not the same as God causing everything to be?

Further, can you show me anything that God does/did not cause to be? Can you demonstrate logically how it is that God did not cause it to be, perhaps by showing what DID cause it to be, without God causing that which DID cause it to be?

Well, no, you can't.

 

[Aviel]

Can you demonstrate, logically, that God knowing everything before it happens, and before he created, yet he went ahead and created what resulted in everything happening, is not the same as God causing everything to be?

I can demonstrate that if you can't comprehend that the reason you are reading this post, and will choose to respond or not, is because you have free will to choose to do it., then that proves you are not understanding the situation.

So, if you believe that because God knew, before you were born... that you would be listening to me today......and you are pre-destined by God...to hear me, then you should be careful to listen, more carefully, as you are pre-destined to hear it.

Right?

You dont want to insult God's "Knowing'..

So, be careful with that, @Mark Quayle

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Can you demonstrate, logically, that God knowing everything before it happens, and before he created, yet he went ahead and created what resulted in everything happening, is not the same as God causing everything to be?

God directly caused Adam to live. God indirectly causes Adam's children to live. And God very indirectly causes children born today to live. So, there are degrees of causing. God is the first cause of everything, a distant first cause for things happening now, a closer first cause for things happening soon after creation. It is misspoken when people say God causes everything; truly God caused Satan to be created yet God does not sin while the devil does almost nothing but sin, it is misspoken to say God sins because the devil sins and God made the devil.

 

[Clare73]

Its true that i dont cut and paste.

Strawman. . .

It is likewise true that I don't have two noses.

What does either have to do with anything?

But, i have answered your questions.

Calvin's theology that is known as "TULIP", is based on a few verses that he filtered through his misunderstanding regarding "God's Foreknowledge".

He absolutely did not understand that God Knowing everything, before it happens, is not the same as God causing everything.

Unless it is you who does not know the meaning of God's foreknowledge, either because you do not believe the Biblical testimony in post #123, or you have not looked into it.