Prayer works?

[bbbbbbb]

No. 'When'* God was all there was —i.e., before he created anything— there was no darkness.

But James (1:13-17) tells us where sin originates. It could, I think rightly be called a perverting principle, but even then, it derives from what it perverts, and not from its own being.

We have this narrative -

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

Apparently light is not eternal.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We have this narrative -

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

Apparently light is not eternal.

I think you are "seeing" (haha) it wrong. Darkness was not intrinsic to "the way of things" before God began creating. That is to say, if God is God, then all things, that are not God himself, are a result of his creating. Whether Day 1 of Genesis was the beginning of any and all creation, I can't say, but it seems that before the events demonstrated to be of his doing (the Spirit moving over the surface of the waters, and "Let there be light", and the separating of light from the darkness), there was something we call surface and water and darkness and chaotic somethingness.

I can't abide the notion that God happened upon an already-existing reality, that he did not himself make but rather is subject to, and in which he must operate according to its natural laws, chaotic though they may be —that would not be God, but a mere powerful being. God need not 'measure up to' nor 'accommodate himself to' anything from outside himself. God is absolute first cause. There is no other— nothing was before him, nor beside him.

 

[Aviel]

@Aviel. As I have pointed out before, neither @Clare73 nor I are Calvinists. Please try to understand, Calvin is not the author of our beliefs.

"Pre-destined elect" theology came from Calvin.

So if a Forum person, believes that "only the Elect", and "only the pre-destined"... and ..

See that Terminology?
That is Calvinism... so, once a person uses that lingo, or believes it.. then they are defined.

 

[Clare73]

Did the individual who originated this desire have free will?

"Free will" in our fallen world means the ability to choose what one prefers without external force or constraint.

Since the fall, we prefer self over God, our will over God's will.
It takes a rebirth (Jn 3:3-8) into eternal life to prefer God's will over our own will.

 

[Aviel]

It takes a rebirth (Jn 3:3-8) into eternal life to prefer God's will over our own will.

You can't be born again, before you give God your faith in Christ.

In other words.. You can't receive Salvation, and then once you have it, you THEN trust in Christ.

That's not possible, but Calvin certainly taught it as His Theology.

 

[Clare73]

"Pre-destined elect" theology came from Calvin.

So if a Forum person, believes that "only the Elect", and "only the pre-destined"... and ..

See that Terminology?
That is Calvinis, ... so, once a person uses that lingo, or believes it.. then they are defined.

Evidently you've never read
predestined - Ac 3:13, 20:16, 25:25, 27:1, 1 Co 2:2, 2 Co 2:1, Tit 3:12 or
elect - Mt 24:22, Mk 13:20, 22, 27, Lk 18:7, Ro 8:33, Col 3:12, 2 Tim 2:10, Tit 1:1, 1 Pe 1:1, 2:9, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Aviel]

Evidently you've never read

You can't be born again, before you Give God your Faith In Christ.

Why?

Its because God has to have your FAITH before He will save you.

And its YOUR FAITH, not His Faith, you have to give Him.

Noone is born again, before they have first given God their Faith in Christ.

 

[Clare73]

You can't be born again, before you give God your faith in Christ.

If you think fallen, sinful, no-Holy-Spirit persons can have faith, it's time to reconsider Jn 3:3-8.

In other words.. You can't receive Salvation, and then once you have it, you THEN trust in Christ.
That's not possible, but Calvin certainly taught it as His Theology.

The NT order is:
receive faith (which is a gift by grace--Php 1;29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3), whereby you trust in Christ,
receive the gift of salvation (through that gift of faith--Eph 2:8-9).

It's all the work of the Holy Spirit, none is the work of man.

 

[Aviel]

If you think fallen, sinful, no-Holy-Spirit persons can have faith, it's time to reconsider Jn 3:3-8.

Calvin teaches that you can't have faith, but Jesus said that if you believe In Him, He'll give you eternal life.

Somebody is lying.

I Vote : John Calvin

 

[Clare73]

Calvin teaches that you can't have faith, but Jesus said that if you believe In Him, He'll give you eternal life.

Which does not preclude it being solely the work of the Holy Spirit.

Somebody is lying.

Somebody doesn't know the NT.

I Vote : John Calvin

I vote those who don't know the NT.

 

[Aviel]

Which does not preclude it being solely the work of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said..."If I be LIFTED UP>.. (on the Cross) i will draw ALL people to me"

That is the Holy Spirit, doing that to everyone, but not everyone will have it.

Some, will hear the gospel, and they know it is true, but they will "willfully sin" and reject it.

However ALL have the opportunity to come to God , through Faith in Christ..

The entire WORLD has this opportunity.......= EVERYONE>.


John 3:16

Somebody doesn't know the NT.

=Calvin

I vote those who don't know the NT.

= Calvin

 

[Clare73]

Jesus said..."If I be LIFTED UP>.. (on the Cross) i will draw ALL people to me"
That is the Holy Spirit, doing that to everyone, but not everyone will have it.
Some, will hear the gospel, and they know it is true, but they will "willfully sin" and reject it.
However ALL have the opportunity to come to God , through Faith in Christ..
The entire WORLD has this opportunity.......= EVERYONE>.
John 3:16
=Calvin
= Calvin

I'm thinking you are mistaken regarding either the NT, or Calvin, or both.

 

[Aviel]

I'm thinking you are mistaken regarding either the NT, or Calvin, or both.

Calvin teaches that you are too depraved to believe in Jesus, so God has to cause you to believe.

You are teaching the same thing, while denying its Calvin.

 

[Clare73]

Calvin teaches that you are too depraved to believe in Jesus, so God has to cause you to believe.

You are teaching the same thing,

Actually, it is Paul who is teaching the same thing; e.g., Ro 8:7-8, 5:6.

"Those controlled by the sinful nature (all the unregenerate; i.e., not born again, Jn 3:3-8) cannot please God" (i.e., believe and obey, Ro 8:7-8), they are powerless to do so (Ro 5:6.)

while denying its Calvin.

While asserting it is Paul.

 

[Aviel]

Actually, it is Paul who is teaching the same thing; e.g., Ro 8:7-8, 5:6.

Paul never taught that God saves you before you Trust in Christ.
He would never teach that HyperCalvinist Lie.

"Those controlled by the sinful nature ( cannot please God"

Of course an unbeliever can't please God, as to please God you first have to believe that God exists..

So, that is the beginning of faith, and then to realize you are a sinner needing to be forgiven, leads you to Christ....

That is the purpose of the LAW....

From there......TRUST.... .= believe in Jesus and God will save you....but not before.

 

[Clare73]

Paul never taught that God saves you before you Trust in Christ.
He would never teach that HyperCalvinist Lie.

Does not address post #174. . .nor #166, nor #168.

Confounds faith and salvation. . .inextricably linked, but not the same thing.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think you are "seeing" (haha) it wrong. Darkness was not intrinsic to "the way of things" before God began creating. That is to say, if God is God, then all things, that are not God himself, are a result of his creating. Whether Day 1 of Genesis was the beginning of any and all creation, I can't say, but it seems that before the events demonstrated to be of his doing (the Spirit moving over the surface of the waters, and "Let there be light", and the separating of light from the darkness), there was something we call surface and water and darkness and chaotic somethingness.

I can't abide the notion that God happened upon an already-existing reality, that he did not himself make but rather is subject to, and in which he must operate according to its natural laws, chaotic though they may be —that would not be God, but a mere powerful being. God need not 'measure up to' nor 'accommodate himself to' anything from outside himself. God is absolute first cause. There is no other— nothing was before him, nor beside him.

Consider this possibility please. God did create light, as Genesis 1:2 clearly states. He spoke the word and light came into being. Then He separated the light from the darkness. It is does not say that He created darkness, but merely that He separated the light from the darkness. Darkness could have been pre-existing or it could have been a by-product of the creation of light. I think both are valid possibilities. What do you think? In either scenario darkness does not predate the existence of God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

"Pre-destined elect" theology came from Calvin.

So if a Forum person, believes that "only the Elect", and "only the pre-destined"... and ..

See that Terminology?
That is Calvinism... so, once a person uses that lingo, or believes it.. then they are defined.

If God used it, it happened before Calvin ever spoke his first word. It is in the Bible, and I found it there, and I believe it. I didn't even know what Calvinism was. Get that through your firewall.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If God used it, it happened before Calvin ever spoke his first word. It is in the Bible, and I found it there, and I believe it. I didn't even know what Calvinism was. Get that through your firewall.

Actually, as you know, Calvin, as well as Luther, agreed with Augustine concerning monergism, but, as you noted, the Bible was written even before Augustine came on the scene.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Consider this possibility please. God did create light, as Genesis 1:2 clearly states. He spoke the word and light came into being. Then He separated the light from the darkness. It is does not say that He created darkness, but merely that He separated the light from the darkness. Darkness could have been pre-existing or it could have been a by-product of the creation of light. I think both are valid possibilities. What do you think? In either scenario darkness does not predate the existence of God.

Or darkness does not actually exist. Though my son claims to keep a flashdark at his ready.

Maybe it is only a word we use to represent an absence of light, to our minds.