Prayer works?

[ARBITER01]

Does prayer work? By "work" I mean "produce the desired (asked for) results".
How do you know?

Yes.

Back around the mid 90's there was a huge hurricane that was heading towards the Hawaiian Islands where I was stationed. It was going to bring about some major disaster, and I knew it inside. I asked The Lord if I could pray for the hurricane to not hit the islands and He said yes. So I started to pray in my prayer language and The Holy Spirit raised my hands up as if I was going to push something away, and slowly I started pushing something away over and over as I prayed.

I prayed like this for about 10 mins of so.

The hurricane dissipated before it hit the islands. I watched the news channel that night where they had a weather radar showing the path of the hurricane, and it showed it come up close to the islands and then move backwards away from them. When it moved backwards it stopped and dissipated out at sea not touching the islands.

Yes prayer does work.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Consider this verse -

(Matthew 24:36 ESV) "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.​

@Xeno.of.athens - remember the topic of your thread? It is about prayer - not the Second Coming.

Here is our difference - you are addressing the topic of the Second Coming

I am addressing the topic of the thread - which is prayer

To wit I presented two Sacred text: Both from Saint Paul showing plainly we are to not just know, but also prove God's good, acceptable and perfect will.

Romans 2:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.​

​

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,​

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

@Xeno.of.athens - remember the topic of your thread? It is about prayer - not the Second Coming.

The verse is about a secret thing that God knows and has not revealed.

 

[Always in His Presence]

The verse is about a secret thing that God knows and his not revealed.

@Xeno.of.athens - correct - BUT the topic of the thread is about Prayer - which that verse is NOT about.

Just trying to honor the OP and keep the thread on topic.

 

[Clare73]

Yeah - explain the question I have asked a number of times - but you continue to ignore -
Explain this please:
If, God's sovereignty, His will is always done - and the Scriptures plainly state the God is not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance -
Why do so many perish and not come to repentance? Which is against His will that some think is ALWAYS done.
Or are you agreeing with post 29 that God's will is not always done?

I am distinguishing between God's revealed will and God's secret will (Dt 29:29).
I am agreeing that God's secret will is always done, but his revealed will is not always done.
I am demonstrating this distinction in God's two wills as shown in the case of Pharaoh,
to whom God's revealed will was "Let my people go," but his secret will (Dt 29:29) was "I will harden his heart so that he will not let them go."
What do you learn about God's will in Pharaoh's case?

I learn that
1) God's revealed will is not always the same as his secret will, and that
2) mankind will be judged by the revealed will of God, not by the secret will of God (Dt 29:29),
just as Pharaoh was judged by God's revealed will (Let my people go), not by his secret will (I will harden his heart so that he will not let them go).

God's revealed will is: he is not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance, but
God's secret will is: the (secret) election of only some, not all, to be chosen and predestined to come to repentance (Eph 1:4-5).
God's secret will (Dt 29:29) is not always the same as his revealed will, and God's secret will is always done.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

@Xeno.of.athens - correct

Didn't you deny that there was such a thing as a "secret will of God"?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Didn't you deny that there was such a thing as a "secret will of God"?

@Xeno.of.athens - yes - in prayer - in knowing Him - in knowing His will as shown through the words of Saint Paul that you are completely ignoring.

You are quoting a verse that speaks of a specific event - His Second Coming - it has ZERO to do with prayer or His will for man on earth.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I learn that
1) God's revealed will is not always the same as his secret will, and that
2) mankind will be judged by the revealed will of God, not by the secret will of God (Dt 29:29),
just as Pharaoh was judged by God's revealed will (Let my people go), not by his secret will (I will harden his heart so that he will not let them go).

God's revealed will is: he is not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance, but
God's secret will is: the (secret) election of only some, not all, to be chosen and predestined to come to repentance (Eph 1:4-5).
God's secret will (Dt 29:29) is not always the same as his revealed will, and God's secret will is always done.

We completely and totally disagree - I think you are taking an instance of God hardening Pharaoh's heart and blending it into a theology not taught nor embraced.

Your reasoning with Eph 1:4:5 falls completely flat with that fact that God is NOT willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. To say God has some 'secret' will not shown with the results the opposite of what is in the Word calls God dishonest or hypocritical.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

@Xeno.of.athens - yes

That being so, namely your denial of a secret will of God it seems that many matters that people pray about may be given a "no" or a "yes" reply that relates to things that the person praying does not know.

 

[Always in His Presence]

That being so, namely your denial of a secret will of God it seems that many matters that people pray about may be given a "no" or a "yes" reply that relates to things that the person praying does not know.

No - you made yet another inaccurate assumption.

1. I deny a 'secret will of God' because it is unscriptural
2. The teaching in this thread so far shows God to be hypocritical - saying through His word what His will is and then 'secretly' wanting the opposite.
3. You quoted one word of my post to you and once again completely ignored my counter claim -
4. You then came up with this assumption I quoted above based on one word taken out of context.

Again - the Sacred Scriptures are TRUTH -

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The teaching in this thread so far shows God to be hypocritical - saying through His word what His will is and then 'secretly' wanting the opposite.

That is not what I believe or teach.

 

[Always in His Presence]

That is not what I believe or teach.

sure sounds like you are supporting it - you have not said one word in contrast -

 

[Clare73]

We completely and totally disagree - I think you are taking an instance of God hardening Pharaoh's heart and blending it into a theology not taught nor embraced.

Interesting. . .Scripture is replete with God hardening hearts; e.g., Ex 14:17, Josh 11:20, Jn 12:40, Ro 11:7, Ro 1:21, 24-27.
It is Scripture that presents the theology.

Your reasoning with Eph 1:4:5 falls completely flat with that fact that God is NOT willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. To say God has some 'secret' will not shown with the results the opposite of what is in the Word calls God dishonest or hypocritical.
We completely and totally disagree - I think you are taking an instance of God hardening Pharaoh's heart and blending it into a theology not taught nor embraced.

And Ex 4:21, 14:17, Josh 11:9, Jn 12:40, Ro 11:7, 1:21, 24:27, etc.

Your reasoning with Eph 1:4:5 falls completely flat with that fact that God is NOT willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. To say God has some 'secret' will not shown with the results the opposite of what is in the Word calls God dishonest or hypocritical.

And God's will for Pharaoh (Ex 4:21), or the northern kings (Josh 11:20), or the Jews (Jn 12:40, 11:17), or the Gentiles (Ro 1:21, 24-27)?

"God hardened Pharaoh's heart", "God incited David to take the census", "God created evil"

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

sure sounds like you are supporting it - you have not said one word in contrast

I asked questions, others provide the answers.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Interesting. . .Scripture is replete with God hardening hearts; e.g., Ex 14:17, Josh 11:20, Jn 12:40, Ro 11:7, Ro 1:21, 24-27.
It is Scripture that presents the theology.

Interesting - let's take a look shall we:

Exo 14:15 And the Lord said to Moses, “Why do you cry to Me? Tell the children of Israel to go forward. 16 But lift up your rod, and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it. And the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea. 17 And I indeed will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen. 18 Then the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gained honor for Myself over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen.”​

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God did EXACTLY what He said He would do - nothing hidden - nothing secret -

Josh 11:20 19 There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. All the others they took in battle. 20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the Lord had commanded Moses.​

​

God did EXACTLY what He said He would do - nothing hidden - nothing secret -

John 12:​

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:​

​

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”​

41 These things Isaiah said [f]when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.​

​

God did EXACTLY what He said He would do - nothing hidden - nothing secret -

You really want me to continue? Yes God spoke plainly - nothing hidden nor secret - about His will. Where you got the notion that any of this was hidden is a secret to me - becaause it is not.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I asked questions, others provide the answers.

Is that why you are not answering my repeated question? If so - then good day to you sir....

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Is that why you are not answering my repeated question?

Yes, and because none of the questions seemed relevant.

 

[Clare73]

Interesting - let's take a look shall we:

Exo 14:15 And the Lord said to Moses, “Why do you cry to Me? Tell the children of Israel to go forward. 16 But lift up your rod, and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it. And the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea. 17 And I indeed will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen. 18 Then the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gained honor for Myself over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen.”

​

God did EXACTLY what He said He would do -

My point precisely. . .

nothing hidden - nothing secret -

Did the Egyptians know that it was God who hardened their hearts, or was it secret to them?

God's revealed will to the Egyptians: "Let my people go."
God's secret will for the Egyptians:" I will harden their hearts so that they will not let them go."

And we are judged by God's revealed will, not his secret will.

 

[Always in His Presence]

My point precisely. . .

Wonderful! Then we agree - there is no such thing as God's secret will.

 

[Clare73]

Wonderful! Then we agree - there is no such thing as God's secret will.

Interesting method of demonstrating your point. . .using only part of the argument/evidence against it.