Pray 4 Isreal

[chelcb]

P4I,

I just found this article and I want to know if this is a accurate description of MJ?

If so I really get it now and I have some further questions if you don’t mind?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/8ta/8ta062.html

Here’s a quote that helps me understand why if you accept Jesus as messiah you are not “christian”

"You can't say to the Jews, 'You're on the ash heap of history because you failed Jesus, and God has tossed you aside, making you of no significance. God is through with your people, but here's the gospel through Jesus Christ.' That's not a very effective way to win friends and influence people," he chuckles, adding, "You don't have to become a Western-style Christian to worship God in a legitimate fashion."

 

[chelcb]

Okay, so can I ask questions now?

 

[chelcb]

Thank you P4I.

First question:

Can someone be a MJ with out being of Jewish desent? And are you more that just 35 years old? That's what it sounded like from the artical.

 

[chelcb]

Is that when the messianic faith was founded, in 1967?

 

[Talmid HaYarok]

LOL, it is certainly quite erroneous to say there were no Messianic jewish congregations before 1967. 350 also seems very low of a number for today as well. Not to make it sound huge, but it just isn't that quite that small.

The author of the article who isn't Messianic Jewish is probably equating it with one movement or organization. Certainly there were no Messianic Jewish organizations more than a few decades ago. Its also true that since the holocaust and the formation of Israel there had been an explosive growth in Messianic Judaism.

Not to slander CJ today, but it is a very Protestant magazine and they can't be expected to get the facts about other groups (particularly groups like Messianic Jews who are typically dismissed without an attempt to understand) entirely accurate.

I'll look up some decent publishing companies that have histories of Messianic Jews sometime when I'm slightly less tired. If you were in Jerusalem I'd just tell you a couple of bookstores to go to, but its not so easy anywhere else.

Shalom

 

[Talmid HaYarok]

Okay, I finished reading the article now that I'm awake and in more detail now. 

It contradicts itself that Messianic Judaism has only been around since 1967. You'll notice at the end of the article it talks a lot about congregations from the 19th century and early 20th century. I don't know what he is referring to or how he came up with that 1967 number.

Thanks for the questions Chelcb

 

[chelcb]

Today at 10:14 AM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #9

Okay, I finished reading the article now that I'm awake and in more detail now. 

It contradicts itself that Messianic Judaism has only been around since 1967. You'll notice at the end of the article it talks a lot about congregations from the 19th century and early 20th century. I don't know what he is referring to or how he came up with that 1967 number.

Thanks for the questions Chelcb

I think he was saying that in America it was founded or sought out by Jews around 1967.

 

[chelcb]

Okay, so now that we have that out the way, there were Jews that accecpted Jesus since the beginning, they just did not accecpt what the "Christian" movment was all about?

The Jews that believed in Jesus did not believe that one had to reject orthodoxed Jewadism in oder to believe?

 

[Talmid HaYarok]

What is Orthodox Judaism today didn't come about until 100 years after Messianic Judaism. Orthodox Judaism was founded by Rabbi Akiba in the early 2nd century and was based off of Pharisaic Judaism.

What they didn't stop doing is being biblical Torah Jews. Early Messianics kept the biblical laws as well as possible, just not the oral traditions of the rabbis or priests.

Back in the early church when Jews were still in charge it was decided (after lengthy debate) that Gentiles didn't have to convert to Judaism in order to follow Yeshua. As the Gentile church fathers took control in the centuries to follow however it seemed the reverse wasn't true. Many Gentile Christians in an act of anti-semitism declared that the original Jewish believers had to stop being Jewish in order to follow the Messiah.

I'm glad that things seem to be starting to turn around now after such a long time. (I will note that Ethiopia never had this problem to turn around from though, Christian-Jewish relations in Ethiopia are relatively superb) The Gentile - Jewish division was the first one to occur in the church and in order to work towards unity and reconciliation then we need to start with that and work together. It sure makes it an exciting time to live in that all this is happening now.

 

[chelcb]

So am I understanding this right? "christianity" was basically established for the gentiles that came to believe in God through Jesus?

 

[Talmid HaYarok]

Well that depends on what you call "Christianity". The original Jewish followers of Yeshua were called Nazarenes and were referred to as the Nazarene sect of Judaism.

However, Nazarene Judaism was different from all the other sects of Judaism in that they allowed Gentiles to join them without becoming Proslytes (converts to Judaism and part of the Mosaic covenant). These gentile believers became known by the Romans as "Christians".

However, both groups originally worshipped together where they shared the same language. Living different lifestyles (the Jews following Jewish laws, the Gentiles not), but worshipping together. I would describe it as numerous people groups, brought together in two religions, under one Faith.

Others would describe it differently and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with them either. One has to watch out for those semantics.

 

[chelcb]

That is very interesting.

What I was meaning is that before Jesus the gentiles really did not believe in the Jewish God, correct? And it was through accecpting Jesus that they came to know the Jewish God and wanted to serve him through Jesus.

 

[chelcb]

Can anyone tell me about the messianic spirituality?

 

[chelcb]

Well, as you know Catholic spirituality is focused on the crucified lord and we are reverent in our mass, what is it like to attend a messianic service, do you view 'worship' as sacrifice?

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 12:41 AM Pray4Isrel said this in Post #2

Here's one of my favorite quotes from the article that explains the linguistics:

"Linguistically, the terms are equivalent," Rob Kirsch, a medical doctor and Messianic Jew, explains. "But in common thought, Christian means Gentile. Since I'm not a Gentile, I'd rather avoid a label that carries that connotation."

 

Well I would like to comment on it since I am a Gentile but also of the Messianic faith. Gentile is not limited to the definiton Christian but has been used in this context..it's more appropriate definition is "non-Jew" or for a more advanced definition:

Gentile

Belonging to the nations at large, as distinguished from the Jews; ethnic; of pagan or heathen people.


 Source:Websters Revised Unabridged Dictionary.

Why ? Because a Gentile (non-Jew) does not neccesarily have to be a Christian. An atheist or agnostic cnan be non-Christian and still be a Gentile. IE: IF I was from Irish decent and a non-Christian, I would still be a Gentile (non-Jew).  

Missy

 

[Ruhama]

From what I've seen of Messianic congregations, it is very much the same as the spirituality one sees in Gentile churches, i.e., you are there to worship and honor God, commune with him, bring a "sacrifice of praise," and be ministered to by God and studying his word. The difference that I see is that instead of a Catholic or other liturgy, you have a lot of Psalms and traditional Jewish songs and liturgy.  I'd say right now a lot of congregations look kinda like you fused protestant and jewish styles to come up with a "messianic Jewish" style.  Not all, but many.  Due, probably, to the fact that there are a lot of protestants who like to mix with MJ congregations, and that a lot of MJs are converts from rabbinic Judaism.

Btw on the "Christian" name being for the Gentiles - I'd probably add that some of those called by that name were Jewish as well. It was merely a matter of language. In Hebrew believers were "Nazarenes" (followers of the guy from Nazareth), in Greek they were called "Christians" (followers of the anointed one). "Meshikhim" (Messianic in English) means the same thing: followers of the anointed one.
So really the idea that only Gentiles are "Christians" is a product of tradition, nothing more, and it is linguistically erronious to say they mean different things.

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 08:16 PM chelcb said this in Post #20

Well, as you know Catholic spirituality is focused on the crucified lord and we are reverent in our mass, what is it like to attend a messianic service, do you view 'worship' as sacrifice?

Chelcb, it varies for some Messianic congregations. In some Messianic congregations the service is closely related to that of a Orthodox Jewish service, others are even more liberal and advocate dance, speaking in tongues, etc.

Here is what might happen at a Messianic Congregation:

<DL>www.lawus.com/messianic/sabbath.html</DL>Then you have this description:

Shabbat Service, Friday @ 8 pm

The&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Friday&nbsp;&nbsp; service&nbsp;&nbsp; include&nbsp; a&nbsp; unique&nbsp; blend&nbsp;&nbsp; of&nbsp;
contemporary&nbsp;&nbsp; Messianic&nbsp; Praise and&nbsp; Worship with
traditional&nbsp; Jewish&nbsp;&nbsp; prayer.&nbsp;&nbsp; Our&nbsp; own&nbsp; Mount&nbsp; Sinai
musicians'&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; provide&nbsp;&nbsp; a&nbsp;&nbsp; mix&nbsp;&nbsp; of&nbsp;&nbsp; songs&nbsp;&nbsp; including&nbsp;
traditional&nbsp; Jewish,&nbsp; Messianic, and&nbsp; original&nbsp;&nbsp; songs.&nbsp;
We&nbsp; also&nbsp;&nbsp; encourage&nbsp; Davidic&nbsp; dancing, and include
traditional&nbsp; worship from&nbsp; the&nbsp;&nbsp; Siddur.&nbsp; Every service
includes&nbsp; a reading&nbsp; from&nbsp; the&nbsp; Torah, and a teaching
which is meaningful, practical, &amp; dynamic. Children's
program is included in the classroom.
&nbsp;Source: Mount Sinai Messianic Synogogue

&nbsp;

It varies though according to how a Messianic Rabbi might run his synaguoge.. some are more liberal than others. Some even say a Messianic service might resemble that of a Assembly of God service but with a Jewish twist.. LOL.

&nbsp;

Missy

&nbsp;

 

[chelcb]

Thanks to all who are helping me understand this faith, I literally had no idea what it was about. I am enjoying learning, which leads me to...(if I start getting on anyone nerves, let me know:>)

Do you have any kind of sacramental life?

 

[MissytheButterfly]

What do you mean sacramental life ? Like the priesthood or becoming a nun ?

Missy

 

[chelcb]

Do you baptise or confirm, stuff like that.