Pray 4 Isreal

[MissytheButterfly]

Yes, Baptism takes place, it is done by immersion and is only done to believers in the name of Yeshua (Jesus), infants are not baptized and pouring and sprinkling is not done either. (Acts 2:38 is a reference for that)

Confirmation in the way that Catholics do isn't done. There is a practice among some Messianics called Confirmation. It is a sort of second Baptism, with oil, instead of water. Oil is the symbolic equivalent of fire, as its fuel. Confirmation actually corresponds to the Baptism of Fire of the Holy Spirit.

Some Messianics (not all) do observe seven sacraments.. (but let me note that most of these are not reguarded or done in the same way the Christian churches perform their version of the sacraments)
These are the 7 sacraments that Messianics that do observe sacraments mainly recognize: but again rememeber they are not reguarded in the same way or even done in the same way Catholics practice them:

1. Baptism
2. Confirmation
3. Matrimony
4. Confession
5. Ordination
6. Extreme Unction
7. Communion.

Oh I noticed that you are Catholic.. I went to Catholic school for 10 yrs. I thought confirmation was wonderful. I, myself was never confirmed because I wasn't Catholic, but a lot of my school mates were and it was such a nice thing to see. A very beautiful ceremony. I can remember all the girls dressed so pretty in white and all the boys in their little suits.. fond memories of Catholic school.

I have to say though I never adopted the religion.. I enjoyed attending Catholic school very very much and learned a great deal from good Catholics that I will always cherish.

Oh if you would like information on how a Messianic would observe the sacraments I would be happy to elaborate.. just ask...

Shalom,

Missy

 

[chelcb]

Missy,

How would a messianic do confession?

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Chel, there is a Jewish practice called Teshuvah.

Teshuvah is a Hebrew word which means "returning". In the spiritual sense, teshuvah means returning to the Creator of the universe, who we call HaShem. It means turning away from the secular, from the worldly way of life and turning back to His way of life. Since He has given us a standard for our lives, returning to Him means returning to obedience to His standard, His teachings, His commands, His Torah. (Source: www.teshuvah.com )

 And don't take this the wrong way but something said among Jews is this: "Christians confess; Jews repent."

Teshuvah is:

1. Regret for the act committed (repentance);
2. Acceptance of responsibility for the act committed (repentance);
3. Repairing the damage caused by your act (restitution AND restoration);
4. Making a decision to not repeat the act (the return).


Teshuvah is a mental process which begins when one acknowledges one's wrong doings, feels sincere regret for what they have done, confesses their sins to the wronged party and finally makes amends and reparations for one's past actions.

The rabbis teach that the effectiveness of teshuvah is thus frequently a function of one's sense of distance from the sacred. The greater the distance, the greater the potential movement toward renewed connectedness. As one Jewish sage put it, "A rope that is cut and retied is doubly strong at the point it was severed."


"Confession goes as far as admitting wrong. Repentence, for it to be accepted , must be accompanied by a commitment to change. To coness without changing is to accept evil as unalterable behavior.

How do we know a person has truly repented, asks the Talmud. If a man has sinned sexually with a woman and confesses, that isn't good enough. Onlufe if he promises never to repeat his indescretion and then has a similar opportunity and refuses can we honestly say he is no longer the person he was before. That's when God forgives."  (Source: paraphase of the words of Rabbi Benjamin Blech, a tenth generation Rabbi, author, lecturer, and associate professor of Talmud at Yeshiva University in NY)

Here is an example that someone gave me once that may help you understand:

"Let's say that I go around the neighborhood and tell everyone that your mother wears army boots. But...I lied and she really wears Manolo Blahniks. In order to do Teshuvah properly, I would then be required to apologize to your Mom...and then go to each person that I told the lie to and tell them that I lied.

It would not be enough to regret and take responsibility for my sin against your mother. I would also have the obligation to repair the damage that I had done. And then I would have to take care of this matter with G-d since lying is a sin..."


Shalom,

Missy

 

 

[chelcb]

This is what has always attracted me to the Jews. Catholics do believe that repentance is key the same way the OT Jews repented but unfortunately our counter parts see it as works, when it’s not, it’s repenting.

Even if Jesus did die for sins and they are wiped out, one still has to be sorry and make mends. Right?? I think we agree with the Jewish people on this (and messianic).

1. Regret for the act committed (repentance);
2. Acceptance of responsibility for the act committed (repentance);
3. Repairing the damage caused by your act (restitution AND restoration);
4. Making a decision to not repeat the act (the return).


We do things to. The confession would not be valid, we would be committing sacrilege if we didn’t have these things. In fact this is basically what our “act of contrition” prayer says.

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Yes Chel, I am aware of the Catholic version of it. I suspect Jews just feel a little differently about Teshuvah.

Now if I remember is the "act of contrition" something like,
Oh my God, I am heartly sorry for having offended thee, and I detest all my sins because of thy just punishment... right ? (I know the rest but for time not typing it all. )

I could see a Jew and Messianic taking a slight issue with this because it seem like one is confessing for fear of punishment. Jews and Messianics repent not because of fear but out of mitzvah (command), not because Yeshua died or didn't die.

For instance Jewish Law insists that before Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement) , people don't rely on their prayers but make sure to approach every person they may have hurt by word or deed throughout the past year. Even the most bitter of enemies have no choice but to reconcile with eachother. There's no way they can be forgiven by God if they haven't made peace with their fellow man.

But I will say the Catholic way is a good way of atoning for one's wrongs, it's just not the Jewish way. And well to each his or her own.

Shalom,
Missy

 

[chelcb]

I could see a Jew and Messianic taking a slight issue with this because it seem like one is confessing for fear of punishment. Jews and Messianics repent not because of fear but out of mitzvah (command), not because Yeshua died or didn't die

 

FYI... not a debate. That is not the case at all.

We have something called imperfect contrition which would be what you described and then we have perfect contrition and that is sorrow for offeneding an all good all loving God.

Both types of contrition remove the sin and grant Christ's forgiveness but only perfect contrition and sincere love for God and sorrow for hurting him can blot out not only the sin but the punishments due to the sin, aka time spent in purgatory for the sin.

The rest of the prayer follows...because I fear the lost of heaven and dread the pains of hell, BUT MOST OF ALL BECAUSE THEY OFFEND YOU, MY GOD WHO ARE ALL GOOD AND ALL DESERVING OF ALL MY LOVE.

Also pre vatican 11 days, the peneance was much different than it is today, sometimes if a person's sin was something the directly affected the community he or she would have been asked to stand outside the Church and apologize to each memeber of the community personal as they entered in.

 

[MissytheButterfly]

LOL Chel, just because I correct, make a comment about, or elaborate on an issue please don't automatically assume I am debating. Perhaps that's what some do here or what you are used to but I am telling you MYSELF in my own words, first hand, that is not my intention unless I state it..

I knew the rest of the prayer, as I stated I just wasn't typing it all. I remember many nice prayers from Catholic school. As a matter of fact I still say the Act of Contrition from time to time..

Again, I see what you are saying and that is fine. You asked me a question about Jewish belief and I gave you an answer. A lot of Jews and Messianics would hardly consider what Catholics do for confession the same as what they are commanded to do. I mean no disrespect, I am simply telling you the reality of what some Jews and Messianics believe. That thought can be taken or left by yourself...

Lastly, I think the Catholic way of confession and repentance as you describe is rather nice...

Missy

 

[isshinwhat]

What do Messianics believe on the state of the Dead after death, and do they pray the Quaddish?

God Bless,

Neal

 

[chelcb]

Missy,

LOL Chel, just because I correct, make a comment about, or elaborate on an issue please don't automatically assume I am debating. Perhaps that's what some do here or what you are used to but I am telling you MYSELF in my own words, first hand, that is not my intention unless I state it..

LOL, I wasn’t, I was only trying to re assure you that my intentions about learning are sincere and I am not trying to "slip" my views in.

I am simply telling you the reality of what some Jews and Messianics believe. That thought can be taken or left by yourself...

I hear what you are saying, but I just didn't want any lurker to get the wrong impression of how we see our confession. It would be unfortunate if someone reading misunderstood what you were meaning and thought that we felt we had no need to repent.

Lastly, I think the Catholic way of confession and repentance as you describe is rather nice...

Thanks, I always thought that about the Jewish practice as well.

 

[MissytheButterfly]

No problem Chel and God bless you!

Sheesh.. I feel like Dr. Laura here answering this question and that question..

Note to other Messianics: FEEL FREE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS..please.. LOL! HELP!

Yikes,
Missy

 

[Talmid HaYarok]

LOL, but you're doing so well.

I've never been that big into theology stuff except that which matters to me personally. Now if you've got any historical questions about Messianic Judaism then I'm your man. 

Besides, the moment I open my mouth about theology I'll find out it was only something I learned at one specific congregation and everybody else disagrees with me.  or something like that. Sounds like a good excuse.

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 06:12 PM isshinwhat said this in Post #35

What do Messianics believe on the state of the Dead after death, and do they pray the Quaddish?

God Bless,

Neal

Well Neal, Like I say with most things when answering a question about Messianics: it varies.. meaning some do and some don't.

 There are Messianics and of course most Orthodox Jews recite the Kaddish to mourn the death of a loved one.

As far as the "state" of the Dead after death, traditional Jewish sources choose on purpose to remain silent on the the question of reincarnation. The general policy among Jews is not to dwell over much of those issue. Yet mystics and the Kabbalah do clearly accept the view that souls can return, not only once but several times.

Is this belief Jewish ? No, it's a belief found within Judiasm. One can accept it or reject it and still be a good Jew and/or Messianic believer. Jewish tradition believes that the recitation of the Kaddish serves as a source of blessing to both the mourner as well as the soul of the deceased. As the soul is being judged after death, the heavenly scales are greatly influenced by the fact that a descendant carries on religious tradition.

Traditional Judiasm refuses to fill in the details of the post-life experience. Jews and Messianics do accept the idea of heaven and hell albeit mostly in different ways for obvious reasons that I am sure you are familiar with on some level.

For traditional Jews it isn't believed that hell is eternal, hence the reason why the Kaddish is prayed for 11 months because it is believed among traditional Jews that the maxiumum time for anyone to have his or her soul "purified" in this place is 12 months. In traditional Judiasm the idea of hell is not believed to be a place of torture and burning with fire, but more like a time to be cleaned from sin before he can enter the "World to Come" or Messianic age, the spiritual world that a soul goes to after death. And it's usually believed that only the worst of all people who require the whole year for their purification.

For the most part Messianics adopt and believe that hell is eternal just as the Brit Chadasha states and they do not accept the notion that hell is a time of purification, but rather a lifetime when those that have not lived according to the will of God will be punished rightfully for all of eternity. Still at some Messianic funeral the Kaddish is prayed but for reasons slightly different than that of a traditional Jewish funeral but of course that varies depending on what a congregation observes and doesn't. Many Messianics also believe that once a person is dead, he is just that: dead, and his soul waits until judgement day to be either cast into hell, heaven, or the new earth.  

NOTE: Other Messianics please comment on Neal's question..don't leave me out to drip dry.

 

Shalom,

Missy




 

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 08:56 PM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #38

LOL, but you're doing so well.

I've never been that big into theology stuff except that which matters to me personally. Now if you've got any historical questions about Messianic Judaism then I'm your man. 

Besides, the moment I open my mouth about theology I'll find out it was only something I learned at one specific congregation and everybody else disagrees with me.  or something like that. Sounds like a good excuse.

Oh Thanks a lot my fellow Messianic brother.. LOL!   (Just kidding).

Talmid, still offer your explanation, it's nice to get a different perspective..

 

And WHERE IS PRAY4ISRAEL ?? huh HUH ? 

Pray4Israel..

 

[Talmid HaYarok]

Heh, I just PMed P4I to try and wake her up. She registers as being online....

Anyways, I don't pray the Kaddish. I don't pray for the dead, but rather just entrust them to the Lord's hands. Whatever their fate, they're beyond us.

As for hell I believe it to be something like the county jail, where the guilty go to await their day in "court". I don't worry about it because it is inconsequential in this life and I don't believe that anyone's beliefs about it will effect them one way or another. Its more important to just live this life well so that you never have to find out first hand what hell is!

Hell is like the south pole station; "Sounds awful but I have no intention of going there".

Peace.

 

[chelcb]

Today at 02:37 PM MissytheButterfly said this in Post #37

No problem Chel and God bless you!

Sheesh.. I feel like Dr. Laura here answering this question and that question..

Note to other Messianics: FEEL FREE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS..please.. LOL! HELP!

Yikes,
Missy

I love Dr. Laura.

 

[chelcb]

Today at 02:56 PM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #38

LOL, but you're doing so well.

I've never been that big into theology stuff except that which matters to me personally. Now if you've got any historical questions about Messianic Judaism then I'm your man. 

Besides, the moment I open my mouth about theology I'll find out it was only something I learned at one specific congregation and everybody else disagrees with me.  or something like that. Sounds like a good excuse.

How does the different Messianic congregations settle disputes? And how do they vary in their theology? Is there any kind of governing body that helps keep things in check?

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Yesterday at 10:03 PM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #41

Heh, I just PMed P4I to try and wake her up. She registers as being online....

Anyways, I don't pray the Kaddish. I don't pray for the dead, but rather just entrust them to the Lord's hands. Whatever their fate, they're beyond us.

As for hell I believe it to be something like the county jail, where the guilty go to await their day in "court". I don't worry about it because it is inconsequential in this life and I don't believe that anyone's beliefs about it will effect them one way or another. Its more important to just live this life well so that you never have to find out first hand what hell is!

Hell is like the south pole station; "Sounds awful but I have no intention of going there".

Peace.

Hee hee Talmid..Amen to all of that!

 

Missy

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 12:36 AM chelcb said this in Post #42

I love Dr. Laura.

So do I, but I sure don't think I would call her and ask any questions.. YIKES.. LOL!

 

Missy

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 12:41 AM chelcb said this in Post #43

How does the different Messianic congregations settle disputes? And how do they vary in their theology? Is there any kind of governing body that helps keep things in check?

Mainly by going to the brother or sister and telling them the issue and settling it by themselves by using the word of God.  From time to time Messianics involve the Rabbi if an issue cannot be settled among themselves. But it's common among Messianics to keep peace, mainly because Messianics believe in the unity of believers period and sort of shun confusion. But of course there are exceptions like with anyone and this idea does vary because as you know we are all human..

Really the varied things with Messianics is some Messianics keep kosher, some don't, some observe all the feasts, some don't, some accept the trinity, some don't. I will say Messianic Jews (cultural Jews that have adopted Yeshua as Messiah) usually always keep the feasts and keep kosher, it is Messianic Gentiles that vary mainly on those issues. Some Messianic Gentiles do not feel the need to be bound by the law and do not follow the law to the letter but are very respectful of those that do follow and usually do not condemn, judge or disrespect another for following the law. Messianics usually believe it is a personal matter. But of course you have those that have a COW if you don't follow the law in the Messianic faith..

 Other than that Messianics basically believe the same things theologically about the validity of the Messiah, the God of Abraham, the salvation of the Jews, Heaven and Hell, etc.. now types of worship may differ..some congregations are more liberal than others.. you may see Davidic dance in one and speaking in tongues..in another you may see a more reflective tone to the service without the dance and speaking in tongues. But for the main part congregations of Messianic faith are rather lively.

There is not a governing body in the Messianic faith as in like the Pope or a body of priests, bishops, elders, etc. Usually the Rabbi sets the tone for his own congregation with relying on biblical information of the Tanach and the Brit Chadasha. A Messianic Rabbi is usually well studied in Judiasm, Messianic Judiasm, Christianity, and various biblical sources and translations.

Missy



 

 

[chelcb]

Missy,

That was a good explanation, I see the picture now.

What is the belief on justification? Do you believe it's faith alone or faith and "works"?