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Pray 4 Isreal

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by chelcb, Feb 16, 2003.

  1. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    Eastern Orthodox
    Thanks, ya'll!

  2. chelcb

    chelcb 'Totus tuus'


    What happened to your post? How did it get to the other side of the page?

    Okay, now...the biggy, what is you take on Mary or devotion to her?
  3. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    Hey all.. P4I explained how we believe in justification and works perfectly..

    About Mary..we believe Mary of course is the mother of Yeshua, was a virgin and was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit to become pregnant with Yeshua. But we do not reguard her in the way the Catholic church does.

    We see her as a good woman that mothered Yeshua and set a good example for all women. Other than that we don't place any other significance on her. We do not pray to her, we do not believe she was an umm..what's the Catholic term ..eternal or perpetual (sp) virgin ?, and we don't believe she holds any power to keep us from any type of damnation. In the Messianic faith we basically reguard Yeshua in the highest sense and not I suspect what some would call saints such as Mary, Anne, Paul, Peter....etc.

    We see her (Mary) as being a blessed woman that mothered Yeshua and that's usually the extent of it..

  4. chelcb

    chelcb 'Totus tuus'

    Do you acknowledge her as the Mother of God? I guess if some messianic do not have the same belief in the trinity then perhaps not.

    I am a little surprised that Jewish believers do not hold her in a higher esteem, (not saying that they don't have any esteem) because of their respect for the Jewish law (honor Mother and Father) and she is a Jewish Mother of a Jewish Son, I would think that they would believe Jesus would have a special honor for her in eternity.

    Those are just my thoughts, I hope you don't mind sharing.
  5. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    Personally, I do not reguard her as the mother of God. And I would say in my opinion that most Messianic Jews do not either..now Messianics Gentiles..it varies some what because of the whole trinity situation, etc.

    God has no beginning or ending so he couldn't have a mother to be born into existance..so most Messianics would probably tell you God has no mother, and that Mary was the mother of Yeshua..

    I wouldn't say she isn't held in high esteem..just not as umm..worshipful ? honoring ? doting ? (don't know an appropriate word here so sorry) as a Catholic does. I suspect it's looked at in more of a Protestant view in the Messianic faith for a lack of a better explanation...

    And we do believe that Yeshua has a special honor for his Mother because she's HIS mother..

    Yeshua and God are the basis for Messianic belief..not Mary.

    But yes, she's respected.

    Messianics: :help:


  6. chelcb

    chelcb 'Totus tuus'

    What would the believers that do not acknowledge the trinity believe about it? IOW, what do they think father, son, and spirit is?
  7. Talmid HaYarok

    Talmid HaYarok Active Member

    I don't know what those who don't acknowledge the trinity would say, but I don't think that I'd term them believers. The Trinity is a core creed of the Messianic faith.

    It was a common belief of most Jews around the time of Yeshua, but Rabbinic Judaism moved away from that position in a stance to differentiate themselves from Messianics. If you have not fully embraced G-d's Triune nature then you haven't become a true Messianic. Rather you'd still be following Rabbi Yeshua as nothing more than a good Rabbi.

  8. chelcb

    chelcb 'Totus tuus'

  9. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    Hmmm, that's interesting Talmid.. I've always here it's preference about the trinity.. oh well.. different strokes for different folks..

  10. Talmid HaYarok

    Talmid HaYarok Active Member

    Heh, I didn't understand that last post. Could you clarify for me please?
  11. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    Sorry this took so long Talmid.. I have been really busy..

    I have always heard it's preference in Messianic communities about the trinity. Since most Messianic Jews usually keep with the original thought more or less about it being ONE TRUE GOD and the idea of the trinity denotes 3 gods to some...etc I have NEVER heard that the trinity is a core creed of Messianic belief. What I have heard is that the father in Heaven is the one true God and Yeshua is the promised Messiah.. but not that they neccessarily make up the trinity..though I know some adopt that belief..in the trinity.. That's all...

    But as I said different strokes for different folks.

  12. chelcb

    chelcb 'Totus tuus'


    Do most messianics believe that Jesus is God?
  13. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    Well I wouldn't know what most believe in that particular reguard since I don't know them all.. it varies for different people...

  14. chelcb

    chelcb 'Totus tuus'

    Why are there so many different belief among the mesianics?
  15. Talmid HaYarok

    Talmid HaYarok Active Member

    Yes, I believe that Yeshua was one with the heavenly father and holy spirit in the Triune G-d.

    That is simple Orthodoxy and what the early Messianics held to.
  16. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!


    There really aren't.. It's usually a person's preference what they adopt and what they don't.. There is a main Orthodox Messianic way but like Christianity..it varies because different people refuse to accept certain things or just have different interpretations of them.

    Like some Messianics believe one must follow the Law period and some believe Yeshua completed or ended the Law when he died..But of course in Orthodox Messianic belief one would observe and follow the Law.

    For instance, I know Catholics that think abortion is okay..is that a Orthodox Catholic view ? NO WAY!

    I know Protestants that do not believe in Sola Scriptura..is that an Orthodox Protestant way.. NO WAY!

    So I hope you get my drift...


  17. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    Chel, This may help you understand better..

    This is from the UMJC (Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations), it states Orthodox Messianic beliefs..not the offspins..

    Messianic Judaism is not a completely new movement, but rather the resurrection of a very old movement .. the identity described under the term "Messianic Judaism" was the identity of the apostles and the community of Jewish "followers of the Way" in the first and second centuries.1

    Messianic Judaism is regarded by its adherents as the latest
    stage in the historical development of authentic biblical Judaism.
    It is the religion of Abraham, Moses, David, and the prophets, brought
    to fulfillment through the coming of Yeshua (Jesus)2 the Messiah.3


    As for Messianic Judaism, the Judaism that believes in Yeshua the Messiah, the facts are as follows: the sole authority for faith and practice is the Bible, consisting of the Old and New Covenants.5

    Traditional Judaism teaches that the Tanakh (Hebrew Scriptures) and the Talmud are God's Eternal Word, that the New Testament lacks this authority, and that Yeshua is not the Messiah. Messianic Judaism, in contrast, teaches that the Tanakh and the New Testament Scriptures together are God's Eternal Word, that the Talmud lacks this authority,6 and that Yeshua is the Messiah.

    For 19 centuries, with very rare exceptions, it had become Customary to set Christianity over against Judaism as its Antithesis.8

    Since the second century, much of the Church has taught that Christianity Is a separate and distinct religion from Judaism. Although biblically-grounded Christians recognize this to be error, it is still a strongly held view among traditional church-goers. This perspective has historically promoted the unbiblical doctrine that the Hebrew Scriptures were superseded by the New Testament,9 that the Church has replaced Israel as the covenant people of God, and that Yeshua's first disciples converted from the Jewish religion to a new religion called Christianity.

    Messianic Judaism, in contrast, believes that Yeshua did not come to establish a new religion, but rather to "fulfill" an ancient one (Matthew 5:17). It upholds the view that the New Testament is a continuation of the Hebrew Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16),10 and it emphasizes God's love and faithfulness to the Jewish people (Romans 11), teaching that Gentiles share (not take over) the blessings that God has bestowed on Israel (Romans 15:27). Finally, Messianic Judaism
    contends that Jewish people who follow Yeshua do not become converts to another religion, but rather remain Jews – Messianic Jews (Colossians 4:11).

    Will continue in next post
  18. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!


    " How shall a Jew be enabled to maintain his heritage of Shabbat and feast while holding to the capstone of revelation in Yeshua How shall a Jew enable his children to grow up with a sense of heritage, to be Bar Mitzvah arid maintain an ongoing involvement in the Jewish community? The Synagogue will not open its door to train his children and the majority of local churches will not provide for this. How then? The answer is clearly congregational, for achieving this individually or through a monthly fellowship may be inadequate or too difficult to sustain for the average person."

    The Jewish people are called by God to be a distinct and enduring people (Jeremiah 81:35-36). It is important, therefore, for Messianic Jews to maintain their Jewish identity and pass this heritage on to their next generation. Messianic Jewish congregations help to accomplish this in the following ways:

    Messianic Jewish congregations provide a leadership base that is able to impart vision, knowledge, wisdom, discernment and counsel to the members of the community in regard to biblical faith and Jewish lifestyle.

    Messianic Jewish congregations follow an annual cycle of events referred to in the Scriptures as "the appointed festivals of the Lord" (Leviticus 23). These include Friday night and/or Saturday worship services, Rosh Chodesh (New Moon) assemblies, Passover seders, as well as the celebrations of Matzot (Unleavened Breads), Bikkurim (First Fruits), Shavuot (Weeks), Yom Teruah (Trumpets), Yom Kippur (Atonement), and Sukkot (Tabernacles). Secondarily, Purim (Lots), Hannukah (Dedication) and other traditional commemorations are also observed.

    Messianic Jewish congregations encourage the eating of biblically kosher foods.

    Messianic Jewish congregations provide an environment where men can wear the kippa (head covering), tallit (prayer shawl), tsitsit (fringes) and tefillin (phylacteries). Women sometimes also wear appropriate head coverings.

    Messianic Jewish congregations appreciate Jewish objects and symbols that serve as reminders of the Scriptures and Jewish identity. These include Torah scrolls, kiddush cups, seven-branched menorahs, etc.

    Messianic Jewish congregations use Jewish forms of music in their services and celebrations. They also have a love for Israeli folk and Chassidic styles of dance.

    Messianic Jewish congregations incorporate into their services selected elements of the Siddur, the traditional Jewish prayer book.

    Messianic Jewish congregations are actively involved in the local Jewish community. They encourage their members to visit other synagogues, attend seminars on Jewish issues, and join charitable Jewish organizations.

    Messianic Jewish congregations in the diaspora encourage learning Hebrew as a second language. Their members are encouraged to attend Hebrew classes, converse with fluent speakers and learn Hebrew liturgy.

    Messianic Jewish congregations view Israel as a Jewish homeland. Members often support the nation financially, Join annual tours, and consider making aliyah (returning to the land).

    Messianic Jewish congregations promote the biblical practice of brit milah (covenant circumcision) for Jewish children.

    Messianic Jewish congregations provide children with instruction in the Scriptures, and on the meaning and importance of living a biblical Jewish lifestyle.16 Often, this education leads to Bar Mitzvah or Bat Mitzvah (a ceremony of passage).

    Adult Education
    Messianic Jewish congregations seek to provide their members with continuing adult education in all areas of biblical and traditional Jewish studies.

    Messianic Jewish congregations provide an environment for single people to meet one another and find prospective marriage partners.17 They offer marriage counseling that deals with the various aspects of the biblical covenant, and of maintaining a biblical Jewish household. Also, Messianic Jewish congregations celebrate traditional Jewish weddings, and provide couples with a caring community in which they can begin their married lives together.

    Messianic Jewish congregations provide a community context in which proselytes can be covenentally received into the nation of Israel.18

    Messianic Jewish congregations appreciate and practice the traditional/biblical Jewish approach to burial and mourning.


    The truth concerning the miracle-working rabbi from Nazareth
    has never been clearly presented to the Jewish people.19

    Messianic Jewish congregations believe that Yeshua was 100% faithful to biblical Judaism and the Jewish people.20 That notwithstanding, many in the traditional Jewish community see him differently and contend that Yeshua's teachings were contrary to Jewish faith and practice.21 Most proponents of this view do not arrive at this conclusion through research, but rather through a prejudice created by 1900 years of Christian anti-Semitism. This characterization of Yeshua is rarely questioned in the Jewish community due to a stigma placed on the study of his life and teachings by rabbinic authorities.22

    Messianic Jewish congregations seek to correct this mistaken view of Yeshua through education – by encouraging research into primary sources such as the New Testament, and secondary background sources including the writings of Josephus, non-canonical books, Aramaic targums, early rabbinic literature and archaeological findings such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Contemporary works on the historical Jesus and the Messiah's place in Judaism are additional valuable sources. Messianic Jewish congregations are confident that history supports their perspective, and that those who research Yeshua's life and teachings will ultimately reach the same conclusion.


    How does today's Christian learn to think and approach life as Abraham, Moses, David and the prophets did, and as Jesus, Paul and the apostles did? This knowledge comes only by uncovering the overarching mind-set that the writers of Scripture reflect. We must enter their world and become conversant with their culture.26

    A special characteristic of Messianic Jewish congregations throughout the world is the significant number of members who are Gentiles. These members share in all of their Jewish brothers' spiritual blessings (Romans 15:27) and, as well, are full participants in every aspect of Messianic Jewish congregational life (Ephesians 2:19). If this seems strange, consider that the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament were both written by Jews, the early heroes of the Christian faith were all Jews, and most significant of all, the Messiah, Yeshua, was a Jew. By living with Jews and living like Jews27 these Gentile members return to the historical and spiritual Jewish roots of their New Covenant faith. Finally, by joining Messianic Jewish congregations, they are able to bless the people whom God used to first bless them.28

    And here is what I really think you are looking for Chel


    Messianic Jews are avid biblical literalists and believe In a "normal" interpretation of the Bible. That is, the words of the biblical text Just as they stand, must be regarded as the correct and sufficient sense of the passage unless the context demands another interpretation.29

    God and Creation
    There is only one living God, the God30 of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
    the Creator of heaven and earth (Deuteronomy 6:4).

    Yeshua is the Messiah
    Yeshua is Israel's promised Messiah and Redeemer of the entire human race.

    By His life, death and resurrection, He fulfilled the Messianic prophecies of the Tanakh (Hebrew Scriptures) relating to the Messiah's first coming. Yeshua, the Divine Word made flesh, is the fullest revelation of God to man
    (Isaiah 52:13-15:12; Luke 24:44; Colossians 2:9).

    Man's Relationship With God
    God made man in His own image and endowed him with a longing for intimate fellowship with his Creator (Genesis 9:6; Psalms).

    Man's Fall Into Sin
    Man's disobedience to God's revealed will caused a separation between man and God (Genesis 2:17; Isaiah 59:2; Romans 5:12).

    The Messiah, Our Substitute
    The only provision God made for fully reconciling man to Himself was through the atoning work of Yeshua, Who died as the sacrifice for our disobedience and rose again, manifesting His victory over sin and death (Romans 5:18-19; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 2:6-11).

    The Bible, God's Word
    The Bible, consisting of both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament, is God's Word to man. It is the only reliable and authoritative guide to faith and conduct (Matthew 5:18; 24:35; 2 Timothy 3:16).

    The Message of Reconciliation
    All who repent from sin and accept God's message of salvation in Yeshua the Messiah are born of the Holy Spirit. Faith in Yeshua as the Mediator of the New Covenant restores us as children of God (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 1:12; Hebrews 2:11-17; 1 John 3:1).

    The New Covenant Congregation
    Those who are of the Spirit of God become members of the worldwide congregation of God, the Body of the Messiah. This one spiritual fellowship includes both Jews and Gentiles as equal members of this one body
    (1 Corinthians 12:12-13, 27; Ephesians 2:1f-13, 18-22).

    Gifts and Fruit of the Holy Spirit
    The work and presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer brings forth the fruit of righteousness. The Holy Spirit also manifests His gifts, power, and authority in the local body of believers, enabling them to become a Spirit-filled community of love and service (1 Corinthians 12; Galatians 5:22).

    God's Law in the Bible
    God gave the practices of the Torah (Law) for moral instruction and as a body of cultural-national practice which would point forward to the Messiah's work. The Torah is valid as a reflection of God's righteous standards and as a means of preserving Israel as a distinct nation. Fulfillment of the Torah by the work of Yeshua does not imply its abrogation. Righteousness with God, however, is solely by grace through faith (Matthew 5:17-19; Acts 15, 21; Romans 3:21-22, 31; 7:12).

    The Nation of Israel
    The nation of Israel is chosen by God to be a channel of blessing to all the nations on earth. The return of the Jewish people to the land is in fulfillment of biblical prophecy. The day will come when Israel as a nation will call on the Messiah Yeshua. Then Yeshua will come again to establish His worldwide rule from Jerusalem31 and the word of the Lord will go forth from Zion, as all nations come to gaze on Him with Joy (Isaiah 2:1-4; 11 60, 62; Matthew 23:39; 24:14; Romans 11) 32
  19. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    And Messianics please PLEASE PLEASE comment on ANYTHING that I have written or posted if you believe I am incorrect, mislead, or misinformed..

    I believe as fellow believers it is important for us to correct eachother in brotherly and sisterly love..and the corrected should take it in love..so i will NOT get offended if any of my Messianic brothers or sisters feel they need to correct me or add to something I have posted or written.

    Remember this verse : 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
    20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    And this is EXACTLY how I would look at a correction from my Messianic brothers and sisters..

  20. chelcb

    chelcb 'Totus tuus'

    Thanks Missy, that was great information.