Practical Commentary on Scripture (moved from OBOB)

StThomasMore

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I thought I'd bring up an old thread. I think the best is not to rush into buying commentaries.
I'm not gonna get more commentaries for a long while now
Regarding the Old Testament it's been hard to find commentaries that would be worth having, since the so called Documentary hypotesis is discarded.


Personally I think the best commentaries include a mixture of many of the facets of the faith instead of just one authors opinion. That's why I think the Haydock commentary is such a good one, since its commentaries are a mixture from many different people who are mostly saints, ecf, popes and theologians ranging from St. Augustine to Bede. Same with Aquinas's Cantena Aurea, since Aquinas lists the wordings of so many different church fathers and teachers.
 
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I wouldn't go so far as saying that a commentary written by one person (note: on a portion of the Bible, not on the entire Bible) reflects only that persons theology and interpretation. For example the Mt 8-20 commentary by Ulrich Luz, it lists the history of interpretation in the Catholic church and in a few of the largest protestant denominations, for many of the verses. So there's enough to read about that in it, IMHO. There's also about redaction of the actual Mt text starting as early as the post-easter Church (which I don't know when it was since I don't trust books such as Acts at all, by the way Acts is excluded from Updated Bible Version 2.15-.16), so the Mt 8-20 commentary might go further back in time and be of more interesting consideration than facets of faith of the Church fathers? Is there such discussion in the Haydock? Note: the Ulrich Luz commentary doesn't put many of the key-verses in Mt in question that way, so far I've been reading to Mt chapter 11 and one there's been about the redaction history of just one verse divisive in matters of faith/theology. But that's not insignificant...

Discussing commentaries is a bit funny sometimes, as one proponent hasn't read the commentaries as the other purpots and vice versa. But it's important to make a good choice and to be able to make recommendations, which means it's necessary to be aware of many commentaries. Which I am.

Do You say that the whole scope in the Bible of the Haydock, is good? I would say it's better to limit first the scope. I really haven't yet found anything more to recommend. Now I would like to also rest from the search.

If a commentary has appealed to a great deal of people, is no proof of it's quality. Rather, noting the competition between the commentaries, and now the internet that gives results too, it's not odd if the best commentaries are actually not among the well-known.

The author's theology is of great importance. For example for the commentary of Jn I suggested, the author can be traced after 1977/'78 when the commentary came out, so notions are hinted at in the publication and education.

To conclude, I think that what You are implying on, StThomasMore, is that self-made experts should be avoided. You're right about that to some extent. From another point of view, whether a scholar is renowned is to a very great extent exactly that: just buzz in the academic world (subjective), and as we know the Magisterium is not actually promoting a specific commentary-series.

The Navarre series has an intention (a self-taken position as it includes the whole text of the Nova Vulgata which preasts have to learn (I'll not discuss whether Latin, Hebrew or Greek is the most important for us or the seminarians)), but it's not the "official" one, because there is no such thing when it comes to series. At best, some things Ratzinger said might be taken as a Magisterium official commentary on some concepts. That has helped me personally, I started to really believe in the Trinity from reading that.

Theology is so much about erasing some input and remembering other. But the amount of fluctuation You are suggesting StThomasMore with the Haydock commentary, is just too much. I don't want my head filled with facets, I rather go with a bit more straightforward commentaries, still trusting the ones I've chosen to have been made by the author best prepared for each task/portion of the Bible.

You might retort that that's exactly what the Haydock commentary did, select for us those who were best prepared. But I disagree a bit, not believing we have to search that far back in time.

I'm not saying new is in any way better. As can be seen from my choices, not all of them are the NEWEST notion of today.

But I can't find the Truth/trust by reading the select bits of works that are at display in the Haydock commentary, because to me, those bits have undergone so much of a process to have been selected, that that sifting is suspicious to me in itself.

Rather I trusted on my own sifting of works.

Works=commentaries.
I think the best commentaries include a mixture of many of the facets of the faith instead of just one authors opinion. That's why I think the Haydock commentary is such a good one, since its commentaries are a mixture from many different people who are mostly saints, ecf, popes and theologians ranging from St. Augustine to Bede.
 
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1 Clem:
I bought and got home yesterday The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, by W K Lowther Clarke D.D., Society for promoting Christian knowledge (a publisher that still exists), (1937)
EDIT1 June 19. 2012: I think the commentary is very good (called introduction).
It has a 44½ page introduction (there's of course also on top of that about authorship, occasion of the letter, dating, manuscripts).
Contents of the introduction (about 1 page each if nothing mentioned): Discussing Peter a lot several pages; 3 pages the intervention of the Roman church; the doctrine of God; Christology; the holy Spirit; 9 pages the church of Rome in the 1st century and the Church; 3½ pages the ministry; Paulinism: the Atonement, Justification, etc.; Eschatology; relation to the state; morality; a little more than 1 page the Old Testament; 4 pages the New Testament; 6 pages liturgy; 3 pages conclusion; the entire books of 1 Clem critically translated; 22 pages notes; 1 page general index; almost 2½ pages index of Biblical quotations
Binding, printing and font: 4½ stars of 5. (All references to scripture and within 1 Clem has chapter number in Roman figures, that makes reading a bit slower.)


1 Clem Ignatius, Papias:
EDIT1 June 19. 2012: If You need only the text of 1 Clem, Ignatius of Antioch and Papias without introduction/commentary, then the newest translation to English is: The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations - Logos Bible Software I might be buying it later on a year or two from now, I have no urgent need for it. It's a bit expensive at $43. EDIT2: There's a 2007 new edition by the same author, not available in Logos: The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations But the W K Lowther Clarke D.D. volume serves me well, I rely on it. The very latest RC version of the Apostolic Fathers is on a sale until Thursday April 11th 2013: https://www.logos.com/product/31154/worship-in-the-early-church-an-anthology-of-historical-sources for $99.95, but these other versions that I mentioned may be better:

Ignatius, Papias:
Actually I de-emphasize the importance of bishops, I read 1 Clem and Ignatius of Antioch eagerly, but they talk much about bishops so content-wise some of this is a bit unnecessary. And I don't find Papias all that reliable because of his theology.



Ro:
Only 6 pages on justification by faith versus justification by works of law and on justification by law.
Scripture quotes: authors own translation of Romans, LXX, RNAB, NET, NETS, NJPS, NRSV (mainly), RSV.
Has some quote(s) from/reference to 4 Esdras, 1 Clem, 1-2 Macc, Ecclesiasticus, Wis, Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, Dead Sea Scrolls, Ancient Authors.
22 pages introduction including 1½ pages about manuscripts.
325 pages commentary, not verse-by-verse. (Each chapter of the book starts on a new page, so the last page is mostly half-blank.)
Designated level: "Masters, as an introduction to more learned commentaries" (approximate quote from the book).
Doesn't question authorship by Paul.
5 pages index of subjects.
1½ pages index of modern authors (discusses Karl Barth, Brendan Byrne, C.E.B. Cranfield, Joseph A. Fitzmeyer, Robert Jewett, Ernst Käsemann, Douglas Moo, Peter Stuhlmacher and N.T. Wright a lot).
Binding, printing and font: 3½ stars (of 5) - my copy has printing defects at the end of the book: the paper of the pages stick to each other from the upper edge, affects most of the last chapter of the commentary and first page of bibliography. A little too soft glue in the spine. Good quality of cover for a paperback.
EDIT2: Now I've almost read it through a second time. It's really good. It has a lot of discussions on the right meaning - how Paul meant things, gives comprehensible listings of OT quotations, has a very good translation *****. Theologically significant textual variants are briefly discussed. Gk is transliterated. This series is very suitable for using as a reference - looking up something and reading just a few pages. The series is now available in Logos: Paideia: Commentaries:
Previously edited by Unix; 19th June 2012 at 7:55 AM local time. Reason: correct typos &add 1999 The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations
Previously edited by Unix; 10th January 2013 at 2:20 AM local time. Reason: add new Ro review and note new edition of Apostolic Fathers
Previously edited by Unix; 11th January 2013 at 3:17 PM local time. Reason: clarificiations
 
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Unix

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An example from 8:1-39. It's titled Life and Hope in the Realm of the Spirit
3 pages Introductory Matters
1 page Rhetorical Flow shart (subheadings and the context in Romans 1:1-8:39)
19 pages Tracing the Train of Thought, of which one example in a post I've written just now (full text): http://www.christianforums.com/t7626505-post59655867/#post59655867
2½ pages Theological Issues, divided in: first half a page generally about distinctive aspects of Pau's theology: God's own Spirit, which Paul also identifies as the Spirit of Christ (8:9), comparison with 1 Cor 15:45, Christ-believer; then under the subheadings: The Spirit as the Defining Characteristic of the Believer, The Spirit as the Norm of the Moral Life, The Spirit as the Firstfruits of Eschatological Glory

I got home the commentary on Jn, and I shall review it more fully about a week from now.

It corrects the 1970 NAB first edition, that's very good. It has references to 2 Esdras (=4 Esdras). It discusses a lot why John wrote as he did
Jn: http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-According-John-Pheme-Perkins/dp/0819906867
... about the author: Pheme Perkins - Theology Department - Boston College
... I've just ordered, after having compared on amazon giving a thought to most commentariees there is
 
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Succeeds with several tasks simultaneously but the author is focused on the core-task. There's no extras. Handy-size, can be carried along. Enjoyable languge. Much on interpretation, also gives examples here and there from modern theologians, doesn't go to ancient theologians, and that's good.
*****
Jn: Amazon.com: Gospel According to John (9780819906861): Pheme Perkins: Books
... about the author: Pheme Perkins - Theology Department - Boston College
... I've just ordered, after having compared on amazon giving a thought to most commentariees there is
 
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~350 pages a volume, compared to ~250 pages in the Jn commentary I suggested. And it's annoying that they include the full NAB text. Yeah the volume on Mt 8-20 that I suggested is at least twice the size, but I think that when it comes to Mt it's necessary with thicker volumes.

Does it hold strongly to the Q-hypothesis? Would make it tiresome to read
especially if it ellaborates on that.
I'm reading Mary Healy's Catholic Commentary on Sacred Scripture - Mark.
Doesn't look that practical when it has a lot of catechism references.
Thomas Stegman's volume on 2 Corinthians.
 
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ebia

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Unix said:
~350 pages a volume, compared to ~250 pages in the Jn commentary I suggested.
With electronic resources weight is not an issue.

And it's annoying that they include the full NAB text.
I tend to like the text in-line.

Does it hold strongly to the Q-hypothesis?
Why would q come into it in a volume on Mark? There is a very brief discussion on dates, authorship and sources in the intro as you would find in any commentary, but the focus of the commentary is on Mark as a cohesive literary piece. Not that there's any real doubt about that with Mark anyway.


Doesn't look that practical when it has a lot of catechism references.
the catechism references are there to follow up when one wants to and not when one doesn't. They don't detract from the volume even if they arent of interest.
 
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StThomasMore

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I wouldn't go so far as saying that a commentary written by one person (note: on a portion of the Bible, not on the entire Bible) reflects only that persons theology and interpretation. For example the Mt 8-20 commentary by Ulrich Luz, it lists the history of interpretation in the Catholic church and in a few of the largest protestant denominations, for many of the verses. So there's enough to read about that in it, IMHO. There's also about redaction of the actual Mt text starting as early as the post-easter Church (which I don't know when it was since I don't trust books such as Acts at all, by the way Acts is excluded from Updated Bible Version 2.15-.16, so might go further back in time and be of more interesting consideration than facets of faith of the Church fathers? Is there such discussion in the Haydock? Note: the Ulrich Luz commentary doesn't put many verses in question that way, so far I've been reading to Mt chapter 11 and one there's been about the redaction history of just one verse divisive in matters of faith/theology. But that's not insignificant...

Discussing commentaries is a bit funny sometimes, as one proponent hasn't read the commentaries as the other purpots and vice versa. But it's important, to make a good choice and to be able to make recommendations, to be aware of many commentaries. Which I am.

Do You say that the whole scope in the Bible of the Haydock, is good? I would say it's better to limit first the scope. I really haven't yet found anything more to recommend. Now I would like to also rest from the search.

If a commentary has appealed to a great deal of people, is no proof of it's quality. Rather, noting the competition between the commentaries, and now the internet that gives results too, it's not odd if the best commentaries are actually not among the best known.

The author's theology is of great importance. For example for the commentary of Jn I suggested, the author can be traced after 1977/'78 when the commentary came out, so notions are hinted at in the publication and education.

To conclude, I think that what You are implying on, StThomasMore, is that self-made experts should be avoided. You're right about that to some extent. From another point of view, whether a scholar is renowned is to very great extent exactly that: just buzz in the academic world (subjective), and as we know the Magisterium is not actually promoting a specific commentary-series.

The Navarre series has an intention (a self-taken position as it includes the whole text of the Nova Vulgata which preasts have to learn (I'll not discuss whether Latin, Hebrew or Greek is the most important for us or the seminarians)), but it's not the "official" one, because there is no such thing when it comes to series. At best, some things Ratzinger said might be taken as a Magisterium official commentary on some concepts. That has helped me personally, I started to really believe in the Trinity from reading that.

Theology is so much about erasing some input and remembering other. But the amount of fluctuation You are suggesting StThomasMore with the Haydock commentary, is just too much. I don't want my head filled with facets, I rather go with a bit more straightforward commentaries, still trusting the ones I've chosen to have been made by the author best prepared for each task/portion of the Bible.

You might retort that that's exactly what the Haydock commentary did, select for us those who were best prepared. But I disagree a bit, not believing we have to search that far back in time.

I'm not saying new is in any way better. As can be seen from my choices, not all of them are the fresh notion of today.

But I can't find the Truth/trust by reading the select bits of works that are at display in the Haydock commentary, because to me, those bits have undergone so much of a process to have been selected, that that sifting is suspicious to me in itself.

Rather I trusted on my own sifting of works.

Works=commentaries.

I wouldn't say bits, as the commentary usually takes up half the page and it almost 2 times smaller font than the verses. So you get an enormous amount of information just on one page, that would in a modern book, take around 5 pages probably. Probably one of the reasons why it is such an expensive book(not to mention the beautiful cover and art). It is definitely a book above most others in quality.

Secondly, as far as searching back in time, yes a lot of the quotes are from noted theologians and saints. Many of which were bishops who who involved in very important documents from the magistarium. The closer we look back, the closer we get back to the apostles and into that golden apostolic era, so yes, I believe a quote from Clement of Rome or Ignatius would have much more weight than Peter Kreeft or Scott Hahn(even though I think they are wonderful writers too) as the earlier writers had a glimpse into the apostolic era we did not have. As far as the study of the New Testament I still don't think anything comes close to the Catena Aurea, not even the Haydock. A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture Edited by Dom Bernard Orchard is very good. The 1951 edition is the one to go for. It is no longer in print but it is possible to obtain one from a second hand bookshop. As the seminaries closed down or modernised these books were got rid of. The Navarre bible is another wonderful series, but I find the commentary too centered on Escriva's writings

Many modern commentaries today are way too drenched in the historical-critical method like the Catholic Study Bible. Traditional commentaries tend to be much more rarer these days(and because of that much more expensive too). The older ones can range up to over 100$.

I'm not trying to bash todays more modern works in anyway. I think there are a ton of great books written in the 20th century. Are they informative and well written? Yes. Do they touch and move my faith the way St. Augustine's City of God or his Confessions did? No. You will find priests and theologians today that are too timid to say what an early church father would probably say in one quote, and because of that today's theology tends to get very watered down. I think this watered down style is in a lot of modern commentaries and because of that our learning of theology becomes stunted. Granted we live in a society in the west were many religious teachers are more afraid to offend than to teach correctly, which is why probably the style of the saints and the fathers are nearly non-existent in books today. It seems that type of writing ended with G.K. Chesterton and Lewis.

By all means though, if you can find me a modern Chesterton or Augustine I would be very thankful!! I would say my favorite writer of today would be Kreeft, but seems today many modern theologians are getting into the habit constantly debating atheists rather than brainstorming good books to write. I can understand with the new boom of atheism this would be more common though. But it seems more books are written on how to debate atheists and apologetics rather than Christianity and morality

I think our now Pope Cardinal Joseph Razinger stated it best:

It is precisely the fidelity to this reading of the Bible that has given us the saints, who were often uneducated and, at any rate, frequently knew nothing about exegetical contexts. Yet they were the ones who understood it best. - Joseph Razinger
 
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I don't like electronics, and I have no handheld device for reading, and I only borrow a laptop which I have to return every now and then, I have no proper internet computer by myself. If the question would be electronic resources, that would be stated in the OP.
With electronic resources weight is not an issue.
 
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ebia

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Unix said:
I don't like electronics, and I have no handheld device for reading, and I only borrow a laptop which I have to return every now and then, I have no proper internet computer by myself. If the question would be electronic resources, that would be stated in the OP.

Your choice, but it does allow one to carry an enormous library.
 
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Unix

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I find it harder to read digital devices, and like I said I REALLY don't like eletronics. Doesn't digital devices wear out much more quickly than printed books and it's hard to make markings and write in digital books?
Your choice, but it does allow one to carry an enormous library.
 
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ebia

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Unix said:
I find it harder to read digital devices, and like I said I REALLY don't like eletronics. Doesn't digital devices wear out much more quickly than printed books and it's hard to make markings and write in digital books?

The reader is going to wear out. Future proofing the text is somewhat of an issue still.

On the other hand most out-of-copyright texts can be obtained freely or at a token cost, and bible software can link connected texts for you, provide powerful search functions, etc. Ebooks that are copyrighted are often a bit cheaper than the print edition.

Adding notes and highlights is easy, and tracking those is way easier. Future proofing them is an issue.
 
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EDIT 2014: SEE MY NEW POST ABOUT BIBLE VERSIONS: Hello everyone! I'm thinking that I'm an Anabaptist.

All the Bibles or parts of Bibles I've bought happen to be printed on thick paper by mere coincidence, except the NABRE (which NT I like the LEAST), and the parallel 8-translation NT I have happens to have wide enough margins so that writing in it or gluing pieces of paper printed from computer onto the margins of it, is really easy, also by coincidence. I haven't seen how the digital adding of notes and highlighting works, but I don't doubt the highlighting works.

I would like to defend printed matter further by telling that it's not always bulky to carry around. I have a portion of the New Testament: REB Acts and Pauline Epistles, NRSV Catholic Epistles and NJB Johannine Epistles, together with small examples from poems and christian litterature during the centuries - it's a small book and many of the Epistles are of frequent use, (collected by John Drane). And I have a booklet that only contains the 1992 GNT Catholic Edition of Jn with printed color-coding of every verse.

For tracking notes in printed matter, I can fasten colored Post-it indexes (ones that can be bought from good office-equipment stores) and thereby group the notes by themes.
Adding notes and highlights is easy, and tracking those is way easier.

And regarding the outdated copyrights, probably I don't need to mention that that doesn't sound especially appealing to me. Or has the 1 Clem commentary I suggested, allready been made available electronically?

Not that many of the books and the New Testaments I've carefully chosen, are available in any type of electronic format. Only few of them I would change for equivalent resources.

True that some type of extras are widely available electronically, I would presume concordances are. But mostly I don't hunt for extras. Besides, the printed NT concordance I have is tailored to the text of several of the NT versions I have and use. So there isn't an equally good NT concordance available online.
I just don't have ANY need for for example an Evangelical Standard Version electronical concordance, not now, nor later on, especially not for the NT.
The only need for a handheld device, that I can think of, would be an OT concordance. I admit, my imagination isn't that vivid.

The keyboard in small devices is too small. Makes me rather turn printed pages. Not to speak of the absence of a mouse in the smallest devices!
 
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Unix said:
All the Bibles or parts of Bibles I've bought happen to be printed on thick paper by mere coincidence, except the NABRE (which NT I like the LEAST), and the parallel 8-translation NT I have happens to have wide enough margins so that writing in it or gluing pieces of paper printed from computer onto the margins of it, is really easy, also by coincidence. I haven't seen how the digital adding of notes and highlighting works, but I don't doubt the highlighting works.

I would like to defend printed matter further by telling that it's not always bulky to carry around.
it's the difference between a few carefully chosen texts in a book, and a vast library accessed through a phone I would have to carry anyway.


I have a portion of the New Testament: REB Acts and Pauline Epistles, NRSV Catholic Epistles and NJB Johannine Epistles, together with small examples from poems and christian litterature during the centuries - it's a small book and many of the Epistles are of frequent use, (collected by John Drane). And I have a booklet that only contains the 1992 GNT Catholic Edition of Jn with printed color-coding of every verse.

For tracking notes in printed matter, I can fasten colored Post-it indexes (ones that can be bought from good office-equipment stores) and thereby group the notes by themes.

And regarding the outdated copyrights, probably I don't need to mention that that doesn't sound especially appealing to me.
maybe not, but it often is to Catholics in general. Of course most official Vatican documents are freely available too.

Not that many of the books and the New Testaments I've carefully chosen, are available in any type of electronic format.
Most of the translations you mentioned above are.
 
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Unix

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One thing I doubt is possible with electronic editions, is to mark in Bibles/parts-of-Bibles which version You prefer for each exact passage/verse/part-of-verse/word. Which I can easily do with printed Bibles/parts-of-Bibles by drawing a rectangle with a straightedge and a black pen!
Adding notes and highlights is easy, and tracking those is way easier.
 
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ebia

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Unix said:
One thing I doubt is possible with electronic editions, is to mark in Bibles/parts-of-Bibles which version You prefer for each exact passage/verse/part-of-verse/word. Which I can easily do with printed Bibles/parts-of-Bibles by drawing a rectangle with a straightedge and a black pen!

If those translations are all in one piece of software (eg Logos or Olivetree) I would just tag the section with a note naming the preferred version. Then when I look at that passage in any I could quickly flick to the preferred version.
 
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Those were just translations contained in that specific book, of which I don't use NRSV at all (perhaps I will a bit for Gn) and NJB very little (basically only for 1 Jn and a tiny bit for Mt).
The Jerusalem Bible is available online, but it's not indexed and doesn't come with any features, just each book of the Bible as a separate huge html file.
The 1971 GNB 3rd edition is not available (better and less biased than the 1976 4th edition and the 1992 GNT). The 2008/2009 Comprehensive New Testament is not available. The Confraternity Version is not available, and that's really disappointing. The 1865 Common English New Testament is not available.

Is the 1970 NEB available?

The 1997 Revised Jewish Publication Society Psalms is not available, or is it? Or the New Jewish Publication Society Tanakh?

Is the CTS New Catholic Bible available? I don't have it
Most of the translations you mentioned above are.
 
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