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Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Sojourner1, Apr 11, 2011.

  1. ewq1938

    ewq1938 When something is "mind bottling" Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    There are no worms in fire. It's a figure of speech that they will remain destroyed.


    Because the second death is death of body soul and spirit.

    Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
  2. Endtime Survivors

    Endtime Survivors prophecy link in my profile!

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    So, "consuming fire" means the soul is consumed in that it no longer exists? The soul dies, meaning it does not exist anymore?

    If the soul no longer exists, then it is separated from God who does exist. I think we could probably both agree on that since, while all things are possible with God, the concepts of existence and non-existence in this context would be contradictory for both to be true at the same time. Otherwise, what happens to a soul after it dies?

    That leaves the phrase, "separation from God is hell". Perhaps the point of contention here is that I'm using "hell" in a colloquial way, meaning that I'm not talking about a lake of fire or the grave (which is apparently what hell literally translates to).

    I'm talking about a concept which is, in the extreme, undesirable, akin to someone experiencing an extremely troubling situation and thinking to themselves, "I really am in hell". To me, the concept of hell is meant to express the worst possible outcome when this physical life is over. Whether that outcome is a lake of fire, non-existence, or some other plane of existence matters little in comparison to the implication of such a punishment equating to a separation from God.

    This is why I said "Eating ice cream for eternity is hell, if God isn't there". Is there any of this which you feel you can agree with?
     
  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 When something is "mind bottling" Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    I believe so.



    When something doesn't exist separation doesn't exist. Separation only exists between things that exist.






    My objection is that no scripture address "separation" as being a punishment at judgment day. It's just something someone made up and it stuck.



    No.
     
  4. Endtime Survivors

    Endtime Survivors prophecy link in my profile!

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    If the soul had never existed in the first place, then I could see sense in your argument. Something which never existed can't be separated because it never existed. But a soul can't be consumed if it doesn't exist, and if it exists then it can be separated from existence, (where God is). If the soul dies then it no longer has what it previously had. It is separated from what it previously had; life. Since God is life, then spiritual death is separation from God who is spirit.

    I can't help but think there must be some kind of misunderstanding separating us from agreement on this. Otherwise you're either trolling me or we're getting into the area of foolish argument.
     
  5. ewq1938

    ewq1938 When something is "mind bottling" Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    It's not trolling to ask for scriptural support for a definition of hell being "separated from God".

    It's simply not biblical. Hell is translated from three dif Greek words. One is Hades, the other is Tartaroo which is in Hades and then the last one is the lake of fire Gehenna. One can be separated from God in Hades or Tartaroo But not the true Hell, the LOF. There is destruction not separation.
     
  6. Echolipse

    Echolipse Watcher and Studier

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    I believe the misunderstanding is coming from the translation of the scripture itself. In the original Greek it's made obvious that separation from God is death/hell.
     
  7. Endtime Survivors

    Endtime Survivors prophecy link in my profile!

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    Maybe so. Thanks for sharing that. Would you mind posting the scripture for reference here?
     
  8. Echolipse

    Echolipse Watcher and Studier

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    You would ask me that, give me some time to find it. It's been a while since I went over that one.
     
  9. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
  10. CodyFaith

    CodyFaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Can anyone show me the best verses for the case of a post-tribulation rapture, aswell as the misconceptions that give pre-tribulaton rapture believers their beliefs?

    I'm new to all this, but lean towards a post tribulation rapture.
     
  11. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
  12. ewq1938

    ewq1938 When something is "mind bottling" Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    It's not going to be "fire" as we think of it.

    If true, that would prove Rev 20's "second death" as being a lie.
     
  13. ewq1938

    ewq1938 When something is "mind bottling" Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    People misunderstood what Paul said so he wrote a letter against the idea of Christ being able to come any moment before the tribulation:

    1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

    He shouldn't even have to speak of these things because he would have told them in person when he was with them but for some reason he decides in fact to re-tell them this:

    1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


    This is it. The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation and Antichrist etc is what started the Pre-trib concept. this one sentence will be misunderstood and the idea that Christ could come at any time, even before the tribulation happens, is born. The facts are that Christ cannot and will not just suddenly appear because there are major events that have to take place first before he arrives but those who are unsaved and spirtually blind won't know this and so the second coming will surprise them without warning as a thief in the night but not those who are awake and watching for the right signs.


    1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


    And this is the part that was missed or ignored. Christ only comes suddenly, without any warning to those who are deceived, in darkness, and are worshiping a false god in the tribulation. Christ's actual appearance will be sudden and shocking to them! But not to us!


    1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
    1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
    1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night



    So the confusion about Christ appearing suddenly at any moment reached Paul and he wrote a second letter to explain what he meant in the first one!


    2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!

    Look at his words:

    1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

    That is the second coming!

    2. and by our gathering together unto him

    That is the rapture!

    3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen right away instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospels.



    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.

    So Paul has just said don't be worried that the second coming and rapture can happen before the tribulation and the Apostasy led by the Antichrist! IE: a pre-trib rapture is not true, right from the mouth of Paul himself.

    2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


    Now he has to remind them...but some will never let go of this "any moment" doctrine that Christ can return suddenly to "rapture the Church away".

    The Bible makes it clear that there is no pre-tribulation rapture. The tribulation and the appearance of the Antichrist will come first before any rapture takes place. Scripture speaks of the same order of events elsewhere:


    1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    Context is the second coming!

    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    Context is the second coming!

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    This is the second coming!


    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

    1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
    2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
    3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
    This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30


    A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.


    So, the proper order of events according to scripture including Mat_24:29:

    1. the great tribulation ends. (Mat_24:29)
    2. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16, Mat_24:30)
    3. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
    4. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)


    Again we see that certain events must happen first before a rapture takes place!
     
  14. Endtime Survivors

    Endtime Survivors prophecy link in my profile!

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    Thanks echolipse. I'm mostly asking for ewq1938 's benefit since they were pretty keen for a Bible verse on this topic. As for me, I don't need a Bible verse to tell me that being in a place (whether it is existence or non existence) where God is not, equates to separation from God. That's just common sense.
     
  15. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
  16. vinsight4u

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    Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
  17. CKM

    CKM New Member

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    HEEEY IM POST TRIB ALL THE WAY I argue with pre-trib enough it is, all the same, all arugement no jesus
     
  18. CKM

    CKM New Member

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    HEEEEY every body the lord talk to me the other DAY and here is what was said.

    HEEEEY GARY the lord has been working on me, I like to find pre-tribs and argue and throw scripture at them and argue some more and have the last word and go to the next and do the same thing just looking for a argument its fun and I been in a lot of arguments where it get really bad and ugly. Thin like it was a impression like the day the lord let me know it was time to quit smoking he took my cigarettes that day, no withdraw symptoms after 30 years of smoking. The impression was has arguing change anything has arguing made anything better has arguing help your blood pressure has arguing made anybody life better. Well arguing giving them scripture might change their way of thinking about the tribulation. Thin the lord impressed on IT’S NOT YOUR JOB TO CHANGE THE WAY PEOPLE THINKS IT’S MY JOB TO DO THAT!! Thin a scripture came to mind.
    King James Bible
    and whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
    It does not say argue and throw dust at them and thin like the lord said STOP ARGUING DO NOT LET WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK BOTHER YOU,YOU WORRY ABOUT YOU NOT OTHER PEOPLE,STOP LOOKING FOR ARGUMENT IT NOT GOOD!!
    IF YOU GET IN THIS SITUATION AGAIN GIVE THEM Matthew 24:29-31
    IF THEY DON’T EXCIPT THIS AS TRUTH THIN shake off the dust of your feet and leave I WILL DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE, and I said OK I will do that! So me arguing about the end time tribulation is over except Matthew 24:29-31 and thin leave!
     
  19. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

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    I will talk to anyone a little bit, and try to persuade them to believe that Jesus is coming back post-Trib, but when they persist I'll usually ignore them and move on. God is sending a great delusion. I open my mouth for those who will hear, and there's no point in throwing my pearls continually into the sty of the condemned. Of course I don't know who's in what camp. My responsibility is to testify; God's responsibility is to change hearts of those who are really His.
     
  20. DingDing

    DingDing Well-Known Member

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    So, does this site consider what is called the PreWrath view to be a Post-Trib view? I consider the PreWrath view to be a properly defined Post-Trib view - properly defined in the sense that it places the rapture of the saints after the Great Tribulation due to antichrist but before the Day of the LORD judgements - but I am not sure how most on this board would categorize it.
     
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