• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Sojourner1, Apr 11, 2011.

  1. Endtime Survivors

    Endtime Survivors prophecy link in my profile!

    +446
    Non-Denom
    Private
    A post wrath rapture? Or are you suggesting that there will be a post-trib. pre-wrath rapture (or gathering), and then another gathering after the bowls of wrath just in case anyone repented during that time?
     
  2. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

    +547
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Yes; Jesus gathering the surviving elect after the seals, trumpets and bowls... basically at the 7th trumpet/7th bowl. He gathers the tares for destruction first, and then He gathers the righteous (Matthew 13). He stays in heaven until it's time to restore all things (after the Tribulation) (Acts 3:20-21).

    Are you kidding me? I've been saying all along that I believe God can keep His surviving elect while He pours out His wrath (see Isaiah 26:20-21). It's kind of insulting you'd ask me that question.
     
  3. Endtime Survivors

    Endtime Survivors prophecy link in my profile!

    +446
    Non-Denom
    Private
    There are quite a large number of various theories floating around out there, Lk. It's hard to keep track of all of them. I don't think you should feel insulted that someone takes an interest in your point of view or asks for clarification of your position. If anything, it gives you a fresh new opportunity to promote what you believe to be right, though I can also understand that it does sometimes feel tiresome to explain the same issues over and over again.

    I seem to recall hearing about a simultaneous "trib/wrath" interpretation before, but I didn't think that was your position. I'm genuinely surprised, assuming I've understood you correctly, to hear that you see the trumpets of the Tribulation and the bowls of wrath to, apparently, happen at the same time.

    On the other hand, I seem to recall the pre-tribbers taking that position, often referring to the "great tribulation of God's wrath", as though it's all the same, which is how they apparently justify their belief in a pre-trib rapture, (i.e. while God allows all believers to experience tribulation, he will not let Christians experience the "great tribulation of his wrath"). See how diabolically clever it is?

    I find it hard to believe that's what you are promoting, especially since I seem to recall you were on a recent thread where they were promoting such a teaching, actively posting against it. Perhaps I misunderstood all of your previous comments on this issue, too? No, I don't think I've misunderstood that part. I don't think you are saying the wrath happens at the same time as the tribulation or that these two events are one and the same.

    You say that God can protect us from his wrath. I agree. It's his wrath, after all. He can do what he wants with it. But the question is why he'd pour his wrath out on his followers to begin with? The post-trib theory suggests that it is the tribulation which Christians will experience and, at the 7th trumpet, just as Jesus and Paul suggest, Jesus will return for his "elect" (i.e. those who follow him) and then God pours out his wrath on a spiritually desolate world below.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2016
  4. Endtime Survivors

    Endtime Survivors prophecy link in my profile!

    +446
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Also, I've read Matthew 13, and while it is true that in the parable of the tares, the tares are bound and burned, the order of events isn't that clear. The tares are gathered "first" but also the wheat is gathered into the barn. "Gather the tares first and burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn". It's a confusing sentence because the adjective, "first", suggests that there is an order to the events. There should be a "second" if there is a first. But he doesn't say, "and then" or "next" or "second". He just says, "but" suggesting that the gathering into the barn is what happens while the gathering for burning is happening. What I am suggesting here is that an interpretation for the order of events isn't that clear, certainly not clear enough to overrule all the other information about what happens at the 7th trumpet of the tribulation and the difference between tribulation and wrath.

    Read on to verse 48 where Jesus talks about the fish which are gathered. He says the good are gathered into vessels. The casting away of the bad happens after this. In the same chapter, only a few verses along, the order is reversed and the good are gathered first. I think, in both of these examples, the order of events is not the lesson. Rather, the lesson is that there will be consequences for our behavior. We will be judged/divided/separated according to the right and wrong of our lives.
     
  5. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

    +547
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Seems clear to me. It's basically, "First do X. Do Y." Y is implied to be the second action since X is explicitly stated to be done first.

    No statement on order of actions is presented in the parable of the fish.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2016
  6. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

    +547
    Non-Denom
    Single
    You are genuinely interested? It was hard to tell.

    I have never promoted two raptures! That's what the pre-Trib and mid-Trib people do. There's nothing in the Bible to suggest it. I believe in one resurrection of the righteous and the subsequent gathering of the survivors (who are in Christ) when Jesus comes back to earth after the Tribulation.

    I thought for sure we've discussed this. My theory is that the trumpets and bowls happen at the same time (first trumpet and first bowl, ... seventh trumpet and seventh bowl). The first bowl only goes on people with the mark of the beast. The fifth bowl only goes on the kingdom of the beast (Mystery Babylon the Great). If the surviving believers have obeyed the command to "come out of her, my people, so you won't share in her sins or receive of her plagues," they will have left the country (see Revelation 18:4). I think the trumpets are a global/universal view and the bowls are "zoomed in" at the kingdom of the beast. For example, all the fish could die in the circle around Babylon--1/3 of the oceans. There is no reason to believe that Christians receive the bowl plagues. This theory makes the best sense to me of Scripture as a whole and I'll keep it unless I live long enough to see it is wrong. It's my own theory. Most post-Trib people think Jesus is gathering His elect at the seventh trumpet and then the bowls wrath are coming on the wicked. I believe this violates the principle in the parable of the wheat and tares.

    See above. You are totally misunderstanding me. The elect don't have to be off the earth to be protected. Israel was protected from some of the plagues that hit Egypt, such as the plague of darkness (Exodus 10:23) and the plague of the firstborns, yet they were still in Egypt. The elect "hide as it were" until His wrath has passed by (Isaiah 26:20-21) and the Lord kills the Leviathan (who in Isaiah 27:1, I believe refers to the beast of the sea, Rev 13:1-2, who deceived the world and is thrown into the Lake of Fire). 2 Thessalonians 1 is clear that Jesus will punish the wicked and give rest to His saints at the same time. The account of the seventh trumpet suggests the same.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2016
  7. Endtime Survivors

    Endtime Survivors prophecy link in my profile!

    +446
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Except that the good is sorted before the bad. That is the actual sequence of events which are described, even if the word "first" or "second" is not used.

    I'm not suggesting that this proves anything about the order of events, which is exactly the point. Neither the parable of the tares nor the parable of sorting the fish proves anything about the order of events, because a timeline is not the lesson behind either parable. I'm suggesting that there is enough reasonable doubt regarding the order of events in these two examples that it is not good enough to simply point to "Matthew 13" as conclusive evidence of your interpretation.

    Yes, I remember now. Thank you for refreshing my memory. It sounds to me, like you've based a theory which you've basically sworn to keep believing until events prove you wrong, on a single parable about the tares and wheat. I mean, you've come up with various scenarios for how the bowls/trumpets could play out, but the basis, the underlying evidence for why you believe this duel trumpet/wrath theory appears to be one parable.

    But there are several problem areas. There are three references to Jesus returning at the sound of a trumpet, and in particular the "last" trumpet. In Revelation 19, the armies of Heaven descend for the battle of Armageddon (the last bowl of wrath). If Jesus is meant to return for his elect at the end of the final trumpet/bowl, how could the bride already be in Heaven to descend for the final bowl? These people are specifically described as the Bride of Christ wearing white robes etc.

    Also, there is a distinct, spiritual difference between tribulation and wrath. Although God COULD miraculously protect his followers from his wrath while they experience tribulation, it makes no sense for him to operate this way. It confuses and blurs the spiritual lesson behind each principle. Tribulation/persecution is always meant to teach, correct, and guide us into a deeper relationship with God. Wrath is specifically for God's enemies. To perform both at the same time will only bring confusion.

    Also, there is the Great Multitude that no one could number who "comes out of great tribulation". IN other words, the tribulation did it's job for these people. As a result of the tribulation they repented and came to God. That necessarily means that at some point they were NOT right with God which means, according to your theory, they SHOULD have been receiving the wrath instead of the tribulation.

    It may be that you will argue that God knows ahead of time who will repent and therefore gives the Tribulation to unbelievers whom he knows will repent anyway, while giving the wrath to people who knows will not repent, but then if that is the case then it becomes completely pointless to perform both at the same time. There is no spiritual lesson or benefit which comes from doing so.

    The point of the Great Tribulation is to give people the chance to repent even if God knows that they won't. He deliberately organizes it that way so that there is never a time when someone can say, "you gave THEM a chance to repent as a result of tribulation, but not me, therefore you are unjust", and they'd have a pretty reasonable case. No, the entire world will experience the tribulation and then, when Jesus returns at the last trump he will take those who've responded to their correction and leave behind a spiritually desolate world for God's wrath.
     
  8. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

    +547
    Non-Denom
    Single
    It seems rather that you have basic unbelief that the word "first" has any importance in the lesson of the parable of the wheat and tares. Maybe it doesn't fit with your end times point of view.

    No, my theory didn't come from the parable of the tares and wheat. It came from Jericho. The Commander of the Lord's army (most likely preincarnate Jesus since Joshua worshiped Him and was not rebuked) told Israel to circle Jericho each day, and on the seventh day, to circle it seven times. This reminded me of Revelation, since I remembered that the seventh seal is the seven trumpets. The seventh trumpet is when the kingdoms of the earth become the kingdoms of the Lord Jesus Christ, the wicked are punished and the righteous are rewarded. Then I looked at the seven bowls more closely, and I can basically see a relationship between them and the trumpets. And because the tares are gathered first, it also makes sense for the bowls to be done at the seventh trumpet. I don't really want to explain it further in here to you, because you are not showing yourself to be genuinely interested and it takes a lot of time for me to respond to your questions.

    They are depicted in heaven with white robes as early as Revelation 6:9-11. But it says these are the souls of martyrs. That is also the way I see the great multitude who came out of the Great Tribulation and are clothed in white robes (Revelation 7:9-17). Just because their souls are in heaven doesn't mean the resurrection has taken place. People die from different things and not all are marytrs. I doubt that every soul described in the heavenly scene at the beginning of chapter 19 are martyrs but dead in Christ who are joyfully celebrating that the time has come for the Lord's vengeance on the wicked and for their own resurrections.

    Look at 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10.

    There's no reason why wrath can't happen to the wicked at the same time as others on the earth are tested and refined (such as Zechariah 13:8-9). In Exodus 15, the Lord is praised because of the wrath He inflicted on Egypt while the Israelites were protected.

    Even when the beast's army is coming to attack Israel, in the sixth bowl, there is a command for the believers in that time to keep watch lest they be found shamefully exposed. Keeping watch is to continually believe the word of God and also continue to obey Him and reject wickedness.

    Revelation 16:14-16
    14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
    15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
    16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

    Verse 15 makes no sense if there are still believers in earth after a rapture, since this is the sixth bowl. So, believing the trumpets and bowls are separated by the return of Christ necessitates two raptures. And nowhere does the Bible teach this.

    You are reading way more into "comes out of the great tribulation" than is necessary. It doesn't have anything to do with the quality of their spiritual lives. It doesn't even mean they all repented as a result of the Tribulation. What about the people who repented years earlier but survived until the days of the Tribulation, during which they were killed? I plainly regard this great multitude as martyrs in the Tribulation. They don't have to be all baby Christians who come to faith only because of the Tribulation. They can be mature Christians, too, whose walk with Christ preceeded the days of the Tribulation. The people who are counted worthy to escape before these things come to pass are probably dying early (before the Tribulation starts) like Isaiah 57:1. That doesn't mean that every Christian left alive for the Tribulation and appointed to martyrdom is necessarily being punished for something lacking in their faith. God does things for His glory, and sometimes for His glory Christians experience all kinds of suffering.

    How do you explain Jesus' warning to believers in the middle of the sixth bowl? I'm not seeing things the way you do. I don't have a problem with God protecting the righteous and bringing others to repentance and faith at the same time as He pours His wrath on the wicked somewhere in the world. Note that the wrath of God is promised for those who take the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-11).

    Please don't write me back and expect another defense. I talk to people who are open (or people who I think might be open if they saw more of Scripture). Once people make it abundantly clear that they are not open, I ignore them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2016
  9. Endtime Survivors

    Endtime Survivors prophecy link in my profile!

    +446
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Not that it doesn't have importance, but that you may be giving more importance to a single word than what the whole of the parable is meant to communicate. I think the fact that a parable within the same chapter, which also deals with sorting the good from the bad and which has the good being sorted before the bad, lends reasonable doubt to your interpretation.

    This is new information which I don't remember you sharing before. Actually, I don't remember any of that stuff about Jericho, from our previous discussions, but I do appreciate you clarifying a little more how you've come to your conclusion. I think the most significant thing I noticed about this comment is that it's a departure from what I understood you to be saying earlier. I had the impression that you believed the trumpets and the bowls would happen simultaneously (i.e. 1st trumpet would correspond with 1st bowl, 2nd trumpet would correspond with 2nd bowl and so forth).

    It sounds like you're suggesting all 7 bowls happen simultaneously at the 7th trumpet or perhaps in quick succession at the last trumpet? I hope you will see that I am genuinely trying to understand your position as it is actually not all that clear.
     
  10. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

    +547
    Non-Denom
    Single
    I have been consistent in saying that my theory of the trumpets and bowls are that I believe the first trumpet and bowl correspond (happen at the same time) and then the second trumpet and bowl, and so forth, to the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl. If both of my theories are correct, the trumpets and bowls will take place in the seventh year of the Tribulation, and Jesus will return at the seventh trumpet/seventh bowl.
     
  11. Endtime Survivors

    Endtime Survivors prophecy link in my profile!

    +446
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Hi LK17. Thanks for sharing more clarification on your position. The trumpets and bowls do correspond, according to your theory. However, if all 14 events take place in the last year of the tribulation, then it does not make sense that you believe there will be 7 years of tribulation. According to what you have suggested there will be only 1 year of tribulation, (i.e. the final year in which the 7 trumpets of the tribulation occur) and 1 year of wrath (i.e. the final year in which the bowls correspond to the trumpets).

    I don't think that timeline is at all consistent with the Revelation and Daniel's repeated references to 3.5 years, 1260 days, and 42 months of Tribulation/persecution/war on the saints etc.

    Am I still missing something?
     
  12. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

    +547
    Non-Denom
    Single
    I believe the three and half years start in the middle of the fourth year (halfway). And during that time the beast will be overcoming Christians and putting them to death. We see an initial group of them in heaven in Revelation 6:9-11 in the fifth seal, which I think is the start of the fifth year (up to half a year after the beast demands worship/mark from the world). I believe the two witnesses will be witnessing in Israel during that time, also... and killed and raised back to life three and a half days later in the days of the sixth trumpet/sixth bowl.
     
  13. Endtime Survivors

    Endtime Survivors prophecy link in my profile!

    +446
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Hi LK. Thanks for further explanation, but it still doesn't explain what I addressed in my previous post. You said you believe the trumpets and bowls will take place in the 7th year of the tribulation. But that leaves only one year of Great Tribulation, since Great Tribulation is what the 7 trumpets represent.
     
  14. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

    +2,304
    Calvinist
    Single
    US-Democrat
    Hey guys,

    Thought I'd stop in and say hello. I honestly don't think I've ever been pre trib although I dabbled in a mid trib rapture for years.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
  15. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

    +547
    Non-Denom
    Single
    It sounds like you define "great tribulation" as the trumpets and bowls only. What if God defines it as the 42 months where the beast is actively killing all the Christians he can get his hands on? I think the seven years is the Tribulation but the last 42 months will be the most difficult. I am not asking that you necessarily share my theories. I don't see any biblical issue with them, and I have thought about it carefully from many angles. It sort of seems like you are in a debunk mindset and you are trying to find any reason to discredit my theories. File it in the "odd but interesting" part of your brain, if you like. Maybe it will pop into remembrance later; maybe not.

    P.S. The words "great tribulation" are in Matthew 24, after the abomination that causes desolation. It makes sense to me that would happen prior to the fifth seal (initial martyrs). There's nothing in Revelation tying the abomination that causes desolation to the first trumpet anyway.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
  16. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

    +547
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Cool.

    I was pre-Trib from about age 3 or 4 (before I became a Christian) until 16 or 17 when I studied the Scriptures to see if it had a biblical basis. Since that time, I've been 100% convinced Scripture teaches a Post-Tribulation Resurrection-Gathering.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
  17. Endtime Survivors

    Endtime Survivors prophecy link in my profile!

    +446
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Not "any" reason. My comments are based on what you actually say. As for debunking, I often find it difficult to know how to disagree with others on this forum without it coming across as just more arguing. "Debunking" isn't really the problem, but rather people trying to debunk one another with a bad spirit. It's true that I do challenge your understanding, but I don't think I'm doing so with a bad spirit. When two people disagree, it follows that both are attempting to debunk the other as a natural consequence of promoting reasons which are contrary to what the other person believes.

    I see this disagreement as less important than the pre-verses post-trib argument, because, fundamentally, we're both on the same page at least as far as being prepared goes. The pre-tribbers are in a tricky situation because their theory, by definition, convinces them that they will not need a bit of extra oil in their lamps. But with your position, at least you're still talking about carrying the extra oil. I see our disagreement as far less fundamental for that reason, and as such perhaps we can afford to discuss it with a bit more lightheartedness.

    Not quite. I define "Great Tribulation" (i.e. the one mentioned in Matthew 24) as being represented by the 7 trumpets. The 7 bowls of wrath are different both in timing and in principle and, I believe, occur after the saints are raptured at the "last" trumpet, as Paul suggests. It's interesting to note that Jesus also talks about his return at the sound of a trump. He does not say trump and bowl or trump and vial. It's not conclusive proof in itself, but I think it does help to define the bigger picture.

    On this we partly disagree. I would define the first 3.5 years as the "plastic peace". I'm not sure that there is any biblical name I could ascribe to it, but I think this concept is consistent with the idea of Paul describing a time when people will say, "peace and safety" and then sudden destruction. I think it is also consistent with the idea that the AC will be an extremely popular leader and that he will cause "craft to prosper."

    The references to protection for 1260 days, the AC making war on the saints for 3.5 years and the "holy city" being trodden down for 42 months strongly suggests to me that the Great Tribulation will be a period of 3.5 years (i.e. the second half of Daniel's missing week). The first half will certainly still be significant, though. There is a lot that will be happening and it's really not clear, as far as persecution itself goes, that there won't be any persecution at all during the first half.

    I think a reliance on something like "order of words" could become problematic when interpreting prophecy. I think we need to be open to the order of events, certainly, but just because Jesus' reference to "tribulation such as the world has ever seen nor ever will see again" comes after a reference to the AoD Daniel spoke of, doesn't mean that it must, of necessity, happen afterwards in real time. I believe that the AoD will trigger the Great Tribulation and that this will happen, as Daniel suggests, in the "middle of the week" (or 3.5 years into the seven year agreement), which also corresponds to the previous references I listed for this same period of time.

    In light of this, it doesn't make sense to me, that the Great Tribulation could be 7 years, but only the last year will the trumpets be fulfilled. It also doesn't make sense that the Great Tribulation could be 7 years, but that Christians only get 1260 days (or 3.5 years) of protection. It also doesn't make sense that the saints would need 1260 days (or 3.5 years) of protection if the trumpets (and as you suggest, the bowls of wrath) only take place for one of those years.

    So you see, it's not a matter of debunking your theory, but rather trying to understand the inconsistencies I see.
     
  18. Endtime Survivors

    Endtime Survivors prophecy link in my profile!

    +446
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Hi Kennedy. Welcome. Feel free to jump in at any point to share your thoughts. Like LK17, I was once pre-trib. It was a very appealing thought. Later, when I discovered new information and was taught to critically examine why I believe what I believe, I decided to change my perspective.
     
  19. FaithfulPilgrim

    FaithfulPilgrim Eternally Seeking

    425
    +104
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    Hello! I'm a post- trib guy and my eschatology is closest to historic premillennialism, as I see no reason to divide the Second Coming into two stages.

    However, I do think there is a prophetic and eschatological significance for the foundation of the modern nation of Israel and God isn't finished with it.

    Would I be closer to historic premillennialism or progressive dispensationalism?
     
  20. DingDing

    DingDing Well-Known Member

    852
    +265
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Hello Pilgrim,

    I would not be the best one to judge your view. As for me, I tend to stay away from dispensationalism altogether. If you have read through my posts in this thread, you will see that I believe what is called the 'PreWrath' position. It is a different from the traditional 'post trib' position. I'm not sure if this is anywhere close to what you believe or not, but feel free to read through my previous posts.
     
Loading...