Positioning for military action

Trusting in Him

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Those don't actually pose any greater threat than the US had already been under. The US has no countermeasures against any kind of ballistic missile--that it can cross the distance few minutes fast faster makes no strategic difference.

You think so. Designing a intercepting missile system to shoot down something which is going that fast, is very demanding at the best of times. Demand responses need to be critically damped to prevent the system from overshooting, there are processing delays, response times for mechanical systems actuation and things like that. Basically processing is not an instantaneous event, it takes a finite amount of time. When you run out of time to get your intercepting system on target you miss. I used work for a defence systems supplier back in the 1970's, things were slower then, but the principles were still the same.
 
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Tiberius Lee

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No, I think that Russia currently has the west at a big disadvatage. And Russia think that if it comes to war that they will win.

Russia has the big advantage is because West is divided. In US unconditional support for NATA no longer exist, many US citizen thinks NATO is a burden to US. In EU as you can see your fellow EU citizen are attacking US policy toward Russia, some even think EU should have more closer relationship with Russia then US.

My personal opinion – NATO must be strong. US should support NATO unconditionally without hesitation. Same goes for EU.
 
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wing2000

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This whole situation is very unlikely to end well for the West, Ukraine, or Tiawan. Both Russia and China appear to already have hypersonic balistic missiles and America has not got any countermeasures to such technology. China has balistic missiles designed to sink American aircraft carriers, again it's unlikely that America has any countermeasures against these either, so America and the West are already on the back foot.

If NATO were to agree that Ukraine would not be allowed to joint NATO, then maybe this situation might be de-escalated and war might be avoided. If it comes to war, Putin is in a fairly good position to win and what happens then if Putin has already decided that war suits him better, so what then? Personally, I don't think that Biden is the right man to be leading America in this situation, he's just out of his depth and might just get NATO into a war rather that back down and lose face.

...hypersonic ballistic missiles are not a factor in the Ukraine situation we see today. Putin wants a lot of things, but I am certain he does not want a nuclear war with the United States. MAD is still valid today -as it was in the 1970's.
 
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Trusting in Him

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...hypersonic ballistic missiles are not a factor in the Ukraine situation we see today. Putin wants a lot of things, but I am certain he does not want a nuclear war with the United States. MAD is still valid today -as it was in the 1970's.

I hope that is still true in the minds of both sides, by this situation is looking a lot like starting another cold war, which is something which is not going to help anyone. If anything China is looking more likely to be really a serious problem to the whole world. They are out to mistreat and bully most of their neighbouring countries.
 
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RDKirk

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You think so. Designing a intercepting missile system to shoot down something which is going that fast, is very demanding at the best of times. Demand responses need to be critically damped to prevent the system from overshooting, there are processing delays, response times for mechanical systems actuation and things like that. Basically processing is not an instantaneous event, it takes a finite amount of time. When you run out of time to get your intercepting system on target you miss. I used work for a defence systems supplier back in the 1970's, things were slower then, but the principles were still the same.

As I said, we don't have such a defense system today, nor is money being spent to develop one.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Post # 30 you say Biden is starting a war with Russia .

Post # 35 - Biden is giving in to Putin.

You got to be extremely talented not to see contradiction in both post.

Not to maintain the Thread name is “ Positioning for military action
Schrodinger’s commander. Biden is both weak and feckless yet also a warmonger threatening to plunge the world into a global conflict so the democrats can maintain a slim and ultimately useless majority in congress.
 
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Aldebaran

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Schrodinger’s commander. Biden is both weak and feckless yet also a warmonger threatening to plunge the world into a global conflict so the democrats can maintain a slim and ultimately useless majority in congress.

It doesn't take a strong president to take advantage of an opportunity to get us entangled in a war to distract his political opponents from how weak he is.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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It doesn't take a strong president to take advantage of an opportunity to get us entangled in a war to distract his political opponents from how weak he is.
Showing strength in this case would be to back down?
 
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Aldebaran

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Showing strength in this case would be to back down?

Showing strength in this case would be to cause Putin to back down. Every time biden meets with Putin, the only result is more Russian troops sent to the Ukrainian border.
 
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mark46

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Sending troops to support NATO allies on the Russian border is a good idea. Also, our quick response team groups would be more effective. Obviously, this should only be by the request of those countries. Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania should not subject to Russian troops entering their countries in plain clothes, as in the case in the Ukraine.

That being said, no country is likely to send their troops to the Ukraine to help.
 
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SimplyMe

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While a possibility, I don't think the scenario is a distinct one.

Between Joe's demonstration of weakness in both Afghanistan and then his comments "small incursion" I believe Putin is testing the waters. IMHO if he makes a move on Ukraine is will be in "small incursions" that Joe will basically click his tongue and say naughty naughty.

Remember while Joe was reducing oil production here - he was increasing our purchases of oil from Russia at the same time.

The U.S. Imports Record Share Of Russian Oil Despite Tensions | OilPrice.com

U.S. oil imports from Russia exceeded last year even the imports from OPEC’s top producer and de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, which—after briefly flooding the U.S. market with its crude in April 2020—drastically cut shipments to the most transparent market to help inventory drawdowns amid collapsing fuel demand globally.

As per Bloomberg calculations, the United States imported on average 538,000 barrels per day (bpd) of oil and oil products from Russia last year. This was higher than the average American imports of oil from Saudi Arabia, which is estimated to have shipped on average 522,000 bpd to the United States.​

I'm sorry, I'm curious when Pres. Biden has purchased oil from Russia. Even your own article refers to companies like ExxonMobile and Valero being the primary purchasers of Russian oil; and I don't recall Pres. Biden having been employed by either company. I can't recall any contracts made by the US government to purchase Russian oil, so when did Pres. Biden buy (or order the US to buy) this oil?

More to the point, your article is from April 2021 and is talking about oil purchases in 2020. So I guess it is actually Pres. Trump who was buying more oil from Russia? But, in truth, it is oil companies that try to buy the cheapest oil they need from wherever they can legally get it. Since Pres. Trump ordered embargoes on Venezuelan oil (in 2019), oil companies tried to pick up the slack with Russian oil -- since OPEC and US producers already had buyers for their oil (and to be clear, I have no issue with the Venezualan embargoes, just pointing out the reason companies switch to Russian oil).
 
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Trusting in Him

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Sending troops to support NATO allies on the Russian border is a good idea. Also, our quick response team groups would be more effective. Obviously, this should only be by the request of those countries. Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania should not subject to Russian troops entering their countries in plain clothes, as in the case in the Ukraine.

That being said, no country is likely to send their troops to the Ukraine to help.

I am thinking that this war is begining to look like it will be a proxy war for quite some time. The ethnic Russian Ukrainians (the rebels) are unlikely to matter to Putin if any get killed and the NATO nations will probably be content to just supply the arms to the Ukrainians. The special forces of both Russia and NATO countries will almost certainly be unofficially involved and in the case of Russia perhaps some of their own regular forces as well on a covert basis, if any of these get killed, or captured the various governments will simple deny that that they are anything to do with them.

Like Vietnam, it will be a war of attriction with lots of people coming home in body bags. At least some of the numbers on both side will be made up with mercenaries, more than likely on both sides. This will be an economically very costly war for Ukraine, so a lot of the funding will be supplied by the NATO countries for mercenaries and other things. The Russians have plenty of older equipment which will be surplus to any important requirements, so their costs of this war might not be particularly burdensome.

As in Vietnam, America eventually was fighting a war, which was unpopular at home and the war was a severe burden of the American government. Added to that The American government were going to need to intensively bomb the cities of North Vietnam to beat the North Vietnese, which was already becoming very unpopular around the world at that time. As time goes on public opinion makes life very difficult for democratic nations fighting such a war. Eventually it all gets too much and they will want out and terms will be sought.

Like the Vietnam war, proxy wars are likely to become the opportunity to use use banned weapons and normally unacceptable methods, mainly because the major powers find ways of denying involvement, or responsibility. Also although both sides don't like to admit it, proxy wars are a useful oppotunity to test new weapons and new tactics. Weapons and weapon systems which have been proven in combat are much easier to sell and many customer countries will be keen to buy the latest proven weapons.

Although everyone is saying that they don't want this war, the present financial situations in many of these countries are not as good as they would like and a coming proxy war will help them to sell arms and weapon systems to boost their economies. I can't speak with much knowledge about other countries, but the UK (my own country) has a very substantial arms weapons development and manufacturing industrial sector.

A lot of this situation may be all about making money and it could be a crazy amount of money as well, so perhaps some big incentives are also driving this present situation. Older military equipment which is overdue for replacement is a lot easier to find buyers for, if there is a war somewhere and major powers will be well interested in selling of older weapons, added to that weapon sales nearly alway create follow on business opportunities as well.

Companies get contracts to develop upgrades for older systems and everyone is going to be very happy while this situation is ongoing. Meanwhile the rest of the world is getting into debt, buying all these weapons which they can't afford and many of the countries involved in the arms trade will also be those who lend them the money.
 
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dqhall

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I am thinking that this war is begining to look like it will be a proxy war for quite some time. The ethnic Russian Ukrainians (the rebels) are unlikely to matter to Putin if any get killed and the NATO nations will probably be content to just supply the arms to the Ukrainians. The special forces of both Russia and NATO countries will almost certainly be unofficially involved and in the case of Russia perhaps some of their own regular forces as well on a covert basis, if any of these get killed, or captured the various governments will simple deny that that they are anything to do with them.

Like Vietnam, it will be a war of attriction with lots of people coming home in body bags. At least some of the numbers on both side will be made up with mercenaries, more than likely on both sides. This will be an economically very costly war for Ukraine, so a lot of the funding will be supplied by the NATO countries for mercenaries and other things. The Russians have plenty of older equipment which will be surplus to any important requirements, so their costs of this war might not be particularly burdensome.

As in Vietnam, America eventually was fighting a war, which was unpopular at home and the war was a severe burden of the American government. Added to that The American government were going to need to intensively bomb the cities of North Vietnam to beat the North Vietnese, which was already becoming very unpopular around the world at that time. As time goes on public opinion makes life very difficult for democratic nations fighting such a war. Eventually it all gets too much and they will want out and terms will be sought.

Like the Vietnam war, proxy wars are likely to become the opportunity to use use banned weapons and normally unacceptable methods, mainly because the major powers find ways of denying involvement, or responsibility. Also although both sides don't like to admit it, proxy wars are a useful oppotunity to test new weapons and new tactics. Weapons and weapon systems which have been proven in combat are much easier to sell and many customer countries will be keen to buy the latest proven weapons.

Although everyone is saying that they don't want this war, the present financial situations in many of these countries are not as good as they would like and a coming proxy war will help them to sell arms and weapon systems to boost their economies. I can't speak with much knowledge about other countries, but the UK (my own country) has a very substantial arms weapons development and manufacturing industrial sector.

A lot of this situation may be all about making money and it could be a crazy amount of money as well, so perhaps some big incentives are also driving this present situation. Older military equipment which is overdue for replacement is a lot easier to find buyers for, if there is a war somewhere and major powers will be well interested in selling of older weapons, added to that weapon sales nearly alway create follow on business opportunities as well.

Companies get contracts to develop upgrades for older systems and everyone is going to be very happy while this situation is ongoing. Meanwhile the rest of the world is getting into debt, buying all these weapons which they can't afford and many of the countries involved in the arms trade will also be those who lend them the money.
British military advisors went to Ukraine. 300 Javelin anti-tank missiles were sent to Ukraine. American advisors were sent to Eastern European NATO nations near Russia.

Trump was complaining about NATO nations who were not paying their fair share of the NATO budget. As fear of the USSR dissipated with the break up of the USSR in 1991, some NATO treaty members may have not taken their financial commitments seriously. NATO headquarters is in Brussels, Belgium.

My dad was in the USAF during the Vietnam War. The Strategic Air Command used to bomb the railroad tracks between China and Hanoi. The Vietnamese railroad workers were warned planes were coming and went to underground tunnels until the bombing stopped. They surfaced and started repairing the tracks. There were Russian made mobile surface to air missile batteries (SAMS) in the countryside. The U.S. lost the most pilots and planes early during the war until tactics improved.

Eventually the U.S. withdrew from Vietnam as communist guerrillas had infiltrated the south and carried out asymmetric warfare. Americans abandoned large quantities of weapons and munitions. A few South Vietnamese got in boats and made it to the U.S. fleet. They were rescued and allowed to immigrate to the U.S. Vietnamese people supportive of the capitalist south were sent to reeducation camps to be indoctrinated with communist atheist dogma.
 
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Trusting in Him

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British military advisors went to Ukraine. 300 Javelin anti-tank missiles were sent to Ukraine. American advisors were sent to Eastern European NATO nations near Russia.

Trump was complaining about NATO nations who were not paying their fair share of the NATO budget. As fear of the USSR dissipated with the break up of the USSR in 1991, some NATO treaty members may have not taken their financial commitments seriously. NATO headquarters is in Brussels, Belgium.

My dad was in the USAF during the Vietnam War. The Strategic Air Command used to bomb the railroad tracks between China and Hanoi. The Vietnamese railroad workers were warned planes were coming and went to underground tunnels until the bombing stopped. They surfaced and started repairing the tracks. There were Russian made mobile surface to air missile batteries (SAMS) in the countryside. The U.S. lost the most pilots and planes early during the war until tactics improved.

Eventually the U.S. withdrew from Vietnam as communist guerrillas had infiltrated the south and carried out asymmetric warfare. Americans abandoned large quantities of weapons and munitions. A few South Vietnamese got in boats and made it to the U.S. fleet. They were rescued and allowed to immigrate to the U.S. Vietnamese people supportive of the capitalist south were sent to reeducation camps to be indoctrinated with communist atheist dogma.

America's technology was greatly superior during the Vietnam war, but this fact made no difference. In Vietnam the north won in some measure because they did not care how many of their people got killed, instead they just kept on going. This is how a war of attriction works, it's the last man standing and it's as simple as that.

Vietnam is not a particularly big country compared to America. Conventional wisdom would have suggested that America had enough advantages to win, but that did not happen. Ukraine is another relatively small country, compared to the big players, maybe the technologically advantages of NATO will also count for very little in this case.

The price of NATO winning this war might in the end be too expensive to be acceptable to NATO and Russia will get what it wants, because it's not affraid to sacrifice large numbers of military personel. The Vietnamese war spilled out into Laos and Cambodia, somebody referred to this as the domino effect. Maybe just Ukraine is not Russia's end game for this situation. The future is yet unknown!
 
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Homeowner

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As an EU citizen how do you see this? Do you think EU will be better off if they are more close to Russia then USA?

Do you think US should withdraw from NATO and let EU defend herself? Do you think USA should not have an aggressive policy toward Russia and let Russia advance toward Ukraine and other Baltic states ?

The problem with Russia is that they can't be trusted. US is not particularly trustworthy either but it is still way ahead of Russia.

Aggressive policy towards Russia is fine, the world doesn't need a new USSR under Putin.
 
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