Porn

[David Gould]

Originally posted by HazyRigby
Eh? I'd hardly insult sex by calling masturbation "sex lite."

I'd like to ask the fellas on this forum a question: if you were married (assuming you aren't), and your wife was as interested in sex as you are (and just as willing!), would you be as inclined to search out porn?

Not that I watch much porn now, but I would be less likely to seek it out if I was in such a relationship.

 

[She Believes]

Hazy,

I'll admit that I didn't want sex as often as my husband. For many reasons, such as I being the one that had to get up many times during the night with our children so I was tired, did he help out? Heck he stayed asleep. I was so tired! So when it came time to bed, I wanted to sleep. Of course the only time he was so very affectionate and made me feel special is when he wanted sex. Number one reason why I didn't feel like havin sex was because of our problems going in his left ear and out his right! So here I am unhappy about something and he thinks everything is okay because he doesnt want to talk our problems so then when he wants sex why I am just suppose to suddenly feel all romantic? Yeah whatever.
Some people just cant control themeselves and they make it worse by getting involved with porn which only makes you lust more. And he says well Im a young man. Well woopie doo I say. Don't get me wrong, I like sex but I am not a 24/7 sex machine.

Well I read your message and was a little annoyed because of my own experience with my husband. He tryed to make it my fault that he looked at porn. Ha. It was his fault I felt non romantic but did he see it that way? No.

And also, my once best friend let her husband look at porn. They were married 6 yrs. Well he ended up wanting an open marriage, where he could sleep with other women. Her husband even had my husband come over to show him a website where married women were looking for men for "good times". I was really mad. So you see, other people left an impression that this was okay.

Where'd the Morals and Values go?

 

[HazyRigby]

That would still be going against God.

How do you know? I've known Christians that believed anything that is done between a husband and a wife is just fine, including pornography. What makes your interpretation of scripture better?

 

[Rising_Suns]

How do you know? I've known Christians that believed anything that is done between a husband and a wife is just fine, including pornography. What makes your interpretation of scripture better?

Because Jesus told us that if you even look at a woman with lust, you have already committed adultery. Watching porn is looking at other people with lust, plain and simple. I think the bible is pretty clear on this issue actually.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Some people just cant control themeselves and they make it worse by getting involved with porn which only makes you lust more.

exactly.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

People still seem to be trying to blame porn. But is porn really the CAUSE of lust, for example? Or the natural consequence of lust?

 

[coastie]

Originally posted by Pete Harcoff
First of all, you don't think it's important to note the opinions of individuals BEFORE the experiment?

I never said or implied that

Second, I'll admit I've never had need to seek out any studies on porn. I simply base my opinions on personal experience. I have read articles and watched shows which come to pretty much the opposite conclusions of what you posted. Unfortunately, I don't know if such things would be considered "link-safe" on this site. And, like I said, most people I know will admit to looking at porn. And these people seem to be normal, healthy individuals with no criminal records or otherwise records of deviant behavior.

sounds like your research is highly scientific. I stand corrected.

Basically, I haven't experienced any of these "bad things" some people attribute to porn.

so they must not exist?

Yes, but what exactly are we talking about? I mean, if I had to watch naked people get it on for 6 weeks straight, I might get a little sick of seeing naked people. Does this mean I've developed an "increase in callousness toward women"? I could eat vanilla ice cream for 6 weeks straight and get sick of that, too. Does this mean I've developed an increase in callousness toward vanilla ice cream?

why are you harping on this one point? You want more details than this article gives, write to the guy.

Again, I think knowing the opinions and values of his test subjects BEFORE the experiment is kind of relevant here.

so this research is null and void? All of his subjects had perverted perceptions of sex befoe the research started?

First we have to define what is considered "normal". And this will vary from person to person. Personally, I would consider "non-distorted" sexual behavior to include any mutually consenting sexual acts of legal age (no kids, animals, rape, etc).

ok, I can roll with that.

However, I don't consider things like bondage or S&M to be "normal". Yet, if there are consenting individuals out there who engage in and enjoy such activity. For my perspective they have "distorted perceptions" about sex. Does this mean they're "bad"?

the question is, do they victimize others? Can those acts cause someone to victimize others?

So we're going to play the relative morality card now huh? Well then why even discuss this? In some cultures it's ok to eat other humans.

However, I concede that you can desensitize people to things by exposing to them. So any exposure about the level required to desensitize them, would be "too much". Like many things in life, you need to control the "doses", so to speak.

And a good way to regulate this would be what?

Hey! I'll have you know I highly revere Dr. Suess.

hehe... I didin't expect that comment to be taken literally, but I guess you're not denying it

I'd have to dig on this point. However, I read an article awhile back (I think I posted a link to it in some other thread) about Bonobo (Pygmy Chimpanzee) culture and their sex lives. They seem to have very promiscuous sexual lives with no hangs up about "doing it" in public, or anything else. Yet they have... no porn.

The article doesn't say that you have to have porn to have promiscuity, it justs states a relationship between the two.

Because I don't automatically subscribe to fear just because someone says so. I've seen no evidence that "porn is bad" (which, in a nutshell, is your whole argument and the point behind the first three articles you posted).

My point was that pornography victimizes people.

I believe there is a certain social mindset which can lead people to believe porn is "bad". But I believe this mindset (like those "pathological sexual behaviors") is also learned.

I disagree, but I believe you are just referring to lust.

I did. If you have points you want to bring up, then bring them up.

I was just making sure.

 

[HazyRigby]

Originally posted by She Believes
I'll admit that I didn't want sex as often as my husband. For many reasons, such as I being the one that had to get up many times during the night with our children so I was tired, did he help out? Heck he stayed asleep...(snip)Number one reason why I didn't feel like havin sex was because of our problems going in his left ear and out his right!...(snip)And he says well Im a young man. Well woopie doo I say. Don't get me wrong, I like sex but I am not a 24/7 sex machine.

Where'd the Morals and Values go?

Did you ever consider the fact that, from his point of view, it probably was "Why should I ever do anything for her? It's not as if she ever gives ME any affection or love!"

The bottom line is, if you use sex as a tool (e.g. "he won't help me with the kids, so I'm not putting out"), then you're heading down a rocky road. Sex is an expression of love, and it shouldn't be conditional upon him performing housework. And if you treated his concerns with the same attitude you expressed here (well woopie doo!), then I'm not surprised that he turned to another outlet. How would you have felt if you had told him how frustrated you were with the inequal distribution of childrearing, and he had said "woopie doo"? Did you ever explain to him why you didn't want to have sex ("Sweetheart, I would like to, but I'm awfully tired. The kids have worn me out!"), or did you use it as a way to punish him?


And if by "morals and values" you mean "asexuality," I hope it's gone the way of the dinosaur. However, if by that phrase you mean sexual monogamy, then I am a perfect example. I'm a nonbeliever, and I watch porn. But I would NEVER even glance another man's way. I know I've got the best one.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Originally posted by Pete Harcoff
People still seem to be trying to blame porn. But is porn really the CAUSE of lust, for example? Or the natural consequence of lust?

Peter,

It's true that humans are born into sin, and thus natrually lust. But Jesus taught us that we can prevail over all sin. If we accept Christ into our hearts, we then get empowered by the holyspirit, a weapon God gave us to fight evil, and He excpects us to win. Why would God give us goals that we couldn't attain? that makes no sense. In short, you can purify your mind body and soul compltely and live without sin, if you just make a serious effeort to grow with Christ all your life. God despises indifference, so if you just shluff Him off like that, then you will be judged when your day comes.

 

[HazyRigby]

Originally posted by Rising_Suns
Watching porn is looking at other people with lust, plain and simple.

Spoken like someone who's never watched porn. I mean, seriously--most people who make those films are pretty scuzzy.

"Lust," to me, means "looking at someone and wanting to have sex with them." I don't look at people in porn and wish I were having sex with THEM; I look at them and wish I were having sex with my husband. A small difference, but it's one that I think most people make.

 

[Rising_Suns]

"Lust," to me, means "looking at someone and wanting to have sex with them." I don't look at people in porn and wish I were having sex with THEM; I look at them and wish I were having sex with my husband. A small difference, but it's one that I think most people make.

I'm sorry but you are trying to rationalize your behavior. If all you really wanted to do was have sex with your husband, then you wouldn't need porn to "spice up your sex life." Why watch porn when you have your husband right there? You see, it is bringing an outside element into your marriage, and element that is contaminaiting it.

Sorry for the lecture here, but spiritual purity is something I firmly believe in. It's an absolute neccessity in building a real foundation with God.  

 

[She Believes]

Well I don't think you have a very good point Hazy. Because one, I could give and give and it would never make a difference. That wouldnt make him help me out. But that's not what sex is all about either. But niether would plain asking get him to help. No I didn't use it as a punishment but I sure didn't feel like having sex with him when he really didnt care about any of our problems. Make sense?
Sex is suppose to be outta love, I know that. Kinda hard to feel loved in my situation which I don't really want to explain the whole scenario.

Oh but what you don't know is that his attitude toward me having most the responsibilities with our children and housework was woopie doo.

You wouldn't glance another man's way? You mean you wouldn't sleep with another man? Cause obviously you have glanced many times watching porn.

As a Christian I think it is important to follow the commandments in the bible.

 

[HazyRigby]

Originally posted by Rising_Suns
I'm sorry but you are trying to rationalize your behavior. If all you really wanted to do was have sex with your husband, then you wouldn't need porn to "spice up your sex life." Why watch porn when you have your husband right there? You see, it is bringing an outside element into your marriage, and element that is contaminaiting it.

::shrug:: I'm not trying to rationalize anything. I don't believe in your god, so why would I? But that's beside the point. I never said anything about "spicing up my sex life." You must be confusing me with another poster.

Why watch porn? Because it's sexy and interesting and more than a little funny. If you think it's somehow "contaminating" my marriage, perhaps we should wait fifty or sixty years and then compare notes. It's the only way I'd be able to prove to you that porn doesn't have harmful effects, I think.

If you think it's so terrible, then stay away from it. But seeing as how the closest you can come to proving pornography wrong from your Bible's standpoint is by using verses that talk about "lust" and "sexual immorality," then I think you're standing on pretty shaky ground. If the Bible said, "Thou shalt not look upon a naked woman," or "Thou shalt not watch two people copulating," then you'd have a more solid argument. As it is, "sexual immorality" can mean anything and is usually defined by the standards of the church of a particular time. It has been used to recommend against everything from kissing and holding hands before marriage to homosexuality. So you'll pardon me if I'll wait for God himself to come tell us all exactly what he meant--because there are a million different interpretations of "sexual immorality."

 

[HazyRigby]

Originally posted by She Believes
Because one, I could give and give and it would never make a difference. That wouldnt make him help me out. But that's not what sex is all about either. But niether would plain asking get him to help. No I didn't use it as a punishment but I sure didn't feel like having sex with him when he really didnt care about any of our problems.

Obviously, I don't know your whole situation. No one does but you. But I have known a great many women who complained about their husbands watching porn--who then, in the next sentence, would say, "And he wants sex all of the time! Men are such pigs! I'm not having sex with him until he does ___." It sounds as if you and your husband had a great many problems--and porn wasn't the main one. The porn sounds like it was just an outgrowth of the other problems you had. And again, I obviously don't know you personally, so these are just general comments.

You wouldn't glance another man's way? You mean you wouldn't sleep with another man? Cause obviously you have glanced many times watching porn.

Again, spoken like a person who never watches porn. If the girls in porn can be called scuzzy, then the guys are downright nasty. But that's beside the point. Just because I see someone naked doesn't automatically mean that I want to have sex with them. And no, I've never looked upon another man with lustful thoughts. Not since the day I met my dear heart.

Or do you assume that just because someone sees someone else naked that they automatically want to have sex with him or her? If that's something you do, then I'm sorry, but that's not the way I operate.

As a Christian I think it is important to follow the commandments in the bible.

Which ones? The ones you find convenient, or all of them? (I'm not mocking you--I'm actually curious.) Do you follow even the minor laws? If you believe the ten commandments, do you follow the rest of the Old Testament as well?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by coastie
I never said or implied that

Okay. But would you agree this is probably an important point, no?

sounds like your research is highly scientific. I stand corrected.

Who's talking research? I'm saying, from personal experience (including reading articles, watching documentary-style programs about human sexuality, and talking to people), that I see no reason to consider porn to be "bad". I don't see any of the negative consequences those articles were trying to point out.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying sexual crimes don't exist. Rather, I don't think it's so easy to scapegoat porn the way some people do. People like looking for stuff to blame. Well, if porn was really as dangerous as some people would have you believe, we'd be a LOT worse off (heck, I'd be too scared to even leave my house).

why are you harping on this one point? You want more details than this article gives, write to the guy.

*shrug* I don't care. You're the one using it to prove a point.

so this research is null and void? All of his subjects had perverted perceptions of sex befoe the research started?

They could have. Who knows? When you do an experiment, it's important to note the starting conditions, the conditions during the experiment (as they do or don't change) and the final result. But without knowing the starting conditions, you can't know what effect the experiment had.

Honestly, before I buy into that article, I'd need to see the original, documented research. Hanging out in the creation/evolution forum has taught me not to take things (even scientific research) at face value.

the question is, do they victimize others? Can those acts cause someone to victimize others?

What do you mean by "victimize"? I strictly mentioned consenual sex. So, if two people get off by tying each other up, why should I judge that? Now, if the person being tied up is NOT willing to go along with such behavior, then that becomes a sexual crime. That, I would be opposed to.

So we're going to play the relative morality card now huh? Well then why even discuss this? In some cultures it's ok to eat other humans.

As I already said, when it comes to sexual activity, I'm talking about mutually consenting behavior.

And a good way to regulate this would be what?

My opinion is that people should regulate themselves. That's what being a responsible adult is all about. Unfortunately, too many people in today's society would rather place blame elsewhere. It's easier to delegate responsibilty to someone else or blame something else for your own problems.

The article doesn't say that you have to have porn to have promiscuity, it justs states a relationship between the two.

And? There's a relationship between driving cars and automobile accidents. Does this mean we shouldn't drive cars?

My point was that pornography victimizes people.

And I disagree. Part of this "victimization" seems to stem for a social mindset that "porn is bad". If you tell someone their whole life that what they are doing is "bad" (whether or not it has other consequences), then they'll probably end up believing it and possibly developing problems as a result.

And then it becomes easy to point the finger and blame porn for all these problems.

I disagree, but I believe you are just referring to lust.

People are hard-wired for lust. Show people sexually appealing images and they'll become aroused. Now, if they've been taught that that reaction is "wrong" or "immoral", well, then no wonder they may develop problems associated with such behavior.

I was just making sure.

Actually, I only skim read the last article since not all of it seemed relevent to your point (except the part "A Short History of Pornography in the United States").

 

[HazyRigby]

Originally posted by She Believes
Oh but what you don't know is that his attitude toward me having most the responsibilities with our children and housework was woopie doo.

Oh, one final question, out of curiosity: did both of you work outside of the home?

 

[Rising_Suns]

It's the only way I'd be able to prove to you that porn doesn't have harmful effects, I think.

And I think you're terribly wrong.

If you think it's so terrible, then stay away from it.

I do. I have for about 7 years. I don't even pleasure my own body anymore; haven't in about a year. I know my body is a temple of God and I intend to treat it that way.

And by the way, ever since I turned away from these sexual temptations, my perception on life has become so much better. I am no longer burdened with these desires. It's like a huge wieght has been lifted from my shoulders and the clouds has cleared up in my eyes. I not only have the bible, but i have my own personal experiences, not to mention I've grown so much closer to Christ.

So you'll pardon me if I'll wait for God himself to come tell us all exactly what he meant--because there are a million different interpretations of "sexual immorality."

As I said before, the bible makes it clear that if you even look upon another man with lust, then you have already committed adultery. This passage alone should give you warning that your behavior is not in accordance with God's will.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html

An article on the sex lives on Bonobos. They engage in lots of promiscuous sexual behavior (including things some people would probably regard as "deviant" behavior -- like homosexuality).

And yet... they have no porn.

 

[HazyRigby]

Originally posted by Rising_Suns
As I said before, the bible makes it clear that if you even look upon another man with lust, then you have already committed adultery. This passage alone should give you warning that your behavior is not in accordance with God's will.

Rising_Suns, please, please, PLEASE go up and read my response about how pornography isn't used by everyone that way. I'm sorry if that's the way YOU used porn, but it's not that way for everyone.

I mean, REALLY. Who can get excited over someone like Ron Jeremy?
Puh-leeze.


I wish we all could just step back and realize that the way we perceive things is not always the way everyone else perceives them.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why God would've given you such a strong urge to procreate while insisting that you only indulge in such actions under extremely controlled conditions. I swear, you Christians make God seem more sadistic than any atheist ever could.

 

[She Believes]

Yes Hazy. Anything else you need to know before you try to defend my so called husband? Actually, Im done with this conversation.