Porn

[Angel75]

sorry david, it is when you inhale chemicals to get high
it is common with air conditioners, the freon i think??? and common household cleaners. overrated don't try it

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by Angel75
sorry david, it is when you inhale gas to get high
it is common with air conditioners, the freon i believe. and commone household cleaners

Thanks!

Outspoken,

I fully accept that pleasurable activities sometimes have risks associated with them.

Christians seem to me, though, to be against certain activities simply because they are pleasurable - they do not mention the risk, they simply rail against the activity itself.

What are the risks of someone watching porn? How high are those risks?

At the moment, it seems that the only risk that has been mentioned has been that it can lead to marriage problems.

Okay. So for unmarried people it has no risks, is that correct?

 

 

[Outspoken]

"Christians seem to me, though, to be against certain activities simply because they are pleasurable - they do not mention the risk, they simply rail against the activity itself."

No, you're wrong. christians aren't against Sex, they are against forfication

"What are the risks of someone watching porn? How high are those risks? "

See my post about porn addiction.

"So for unmarried people it has no risks, is that correct?"

No, it causes antisocial behavior. I think you missed my previous post on this.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by coastie
The so-called victimless art form.

http://wildcat.arizona.edu/papers/92/137/04_4_m.html

http://www.obscenitycrimes.org/clineart.cfm

http://www.nationalcoalition.org/pornharm.phtml?ID=102

http://www.mncasa.org/manuals_lit/trainingmanual/violencetypes.html

pick one

FUD, FUD, and more FUD (with the exception of the last article).

Seriously, people seem to ignore one simple fact: human beings are sexual creatures. It's one of our strongest instinctual drives. And yet, we have this weird social mindset that sex is "dirty", "wrong", "immoral", whatever. So naturally, exploring one's sexuality (whether through porn or whatever) is going to lead to bad things because society has already set up these social taboos.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by David Gould

Christians seem to me, though, to be against certain activities simply because they are pleasurable - they do not mention the risk, they simply rail against the activity itself.
Okay. So for unmarried people it has no risks, is that correct?

 

I agree with you on "Christians" they always want to fight someone else's battle, and telling you what is bad or good for you. Without even knowing who you are. Do I know you? No, so don't preach to me. "Look at the plank in your own eye before you try to remove the splinter in mine".

So for unmarried people, well then we are talking about sex before marriage, that is a whole separate discussion

 

 

[She Believes]

Anthony, I like your views. See, I for one have an example for those who don't think it will affect your marriage. My husband is a very lustful soul. He said he wouldn't look no more, but lied. He took other couples as examples to say that his wife didn't care if he looked at porn. Well I did. But I know what his desire is. He told me he didn't see anything wrong with it and if I wanted to get off looking at naked men that would be okay with him. So it's something he does and it builds. He can't stop, he lied so many times trying to hide it. I got Cybertrack and Spy just to see if he stop and Nope he sure didn't.

Did that make me feel important? NO
I didn't appreciate him looking at other women ecspecially after having two children and not being perfectly slim. I just wanted to be the one and only. I mean you get married and become one. Your suppose to love your wife like Christ loves the church. So I guess when God isn't important then you just lose your morals and values and try to justify your sins. Whatever brings you peace. It's not for me. I am glad there are men that realize that porn is wrong. I was beginning to wonder if there were any.

 

[Outspoken]

Oh, Angel left out that it kills brain cells by suffication David.

 

[Outspoken]

"It's one of our strongest instinctual drives. And yet, we have this weird social mindset that sex is "dirty", "wrong", "immoral", whatever. "

Pete don't build strawmen. Christians don't believe its dirty or wrong. Sex INSIDE OF marrage is great. The thing we are talking about here is fornication/porn.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by Angel75
As for those who commit sexual crimes, are you saying you believe it is due to the porn that they are committing these crimes??

Saying porn leads to sexual crimes is like saying driving leads to automobile accidents.

 

[coastie]

Originally posted by Pete Harcoff
FUD, FUD, and more FUD (with the exception of the last article).

Seriously, people seem to ignore one simple fact: human beings are sexual creatures. It's one of our strongest instinctual drives. And yet, we have this weird social mindset that sex is "dirty", "wrong", "immoral", whatever. So naturally, exploring one's sexuality (whether through porn or whatever) is going to lead to bad things because society has already set up these social taboos.

LOL... you've got to be kidding me

THe author of the article is

Victor B. Cline earned his Ph.D. at the University of California, Berkeley and is presently a psychotherapist specializing in family/marital counseling and sexual addictions.

Yeah, I'm sure he's full of it

from the article...

In reviewing the literature on the effects of pornography, there is a variety of evidence suggesting risk and the possibility of harm from being immersed in repeated exposure to pornography. These data come primarily from three sources:


Clinical case history data
Field studies
Experimental laboratory type studies


As a clinical psychologist, I have treated, over the years, approximately 350 sex addicts, sex offenders, or other individuals (96% male) with sexual illnesses. This includes many types of unwanted compulsive sexual acting-out, plus such things as child molestation, exhibitionism, voyeurism, sadomasochism, fetishism, and rape. With several exceptions, pornography has been a major or minor contributor or facilitator in the acquisition of their deviation or sexual addiction.

The first change that happened was an addiction-effect. The porn-consumers got hooked. Once involved in pornographic materials, they kept coming back for more and still more. The material seemed to provide a very powerful sexual stimulant or aphrodisiac effect, followed by sexual release, most often through masturbation. The pornography provided very exciting and powerful imagery which they frequently recalled to mind and elaborated on in their fantasies.

The second phase was an escalation-effect. With the passage of time, the addicted person required rougher, more explicit, more deviant, and "kinky" kinds of sexual material to get their "highs" and "sexual turn-ons." It was reminiscent of individuals afflicted with drug addictions. Over time there is nearly always an increasing need for more of the stimulant to get the same initial effect.

Being married or in a relationship with a willing sexual partner did not solve their problem. Their addiction and escalation were mainly due to the powerful sexual imagery in their minds, implanted there by the exposure to pornography.

So far we have established that the addicted person is the victim.

I have had a number of couple-clients where the wife tearfully reported that her husband preferred to touch to pornography than to make love to her.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by Outspoken
Pete don't build strawmen. Christians don't believe its dirty or wrong. Sex INSIDE OF marrage is great. The thing we are talking about here is fornication/porn.

I fail to see the distinction between sex inside and outside of marriage. Sex is sex. The act is exactly the same. The only difference is people's mindset towards it. Which is my whole point.

 

[coastie]

Originally posted by Pete Harcoff
Saying porn leads to sexual crimes is like saying driving leads to automobile accidents.

more from the same article

The third phase was desensitization. Material (in books, magazines, or films/videos) which was originally perceived as shocking, taboo-breaking, illegal, repulsive, or immoral, in time came to be seen as acceptable and commonplace. The sexual activity depicted in the pornography (no matter how anti-social or deviant) became legitimized. There was an increasing sense that "everybody does it" and this gave them permission to also do it, even though the activity was possibly illegal and contrary to their previous moral beliefs and personal standards.

The fourth phase was an increasing tendency to act out sexually the behaviors viewed in the pornography, including compulsive promiscuity, exhibitionism, group sex, voyeurism, frequenting massage parlors, having sex with minor children, rape, and inflicting pain on themselves or a partner during sex. This behavior frequently grew into a sexual addiction which they found themselves locked into and unable to change or reverse .no matter what the negative consequences were in their life.

The best evidence to date suggests that most or all sexual deviations are learned behaviors, usually through inadvertent or accidental conditioning. There is no convincing evidence to date, suggesting the hereditary transmission of any pathological sexual behavior pattern such as rape, incest, pedophilia, exhibitionism, or promiscuity.


As McGuire explains, as a man repeatedly masturbates to a vivid sexual fantasy as his exclusive outlet (introduced by a real life experience or possibly pornography), the pleasurable experiences endow the deviant fantasy (rape, molesting children, injuring one's partner while having sex, etc.) with increasing erotic value. The [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] experienced then provides the critical reinforcing event for the conditioning of the fantasy preceding or accompanying the act. (McGuire, R.J., et al., "Sexual Deviation as Conditioned Behavior," Behavior Research and Therapy, 1965, vol 2, p. 185).

Additionally, empirical research suggests that when experimental subjects are exposed to repeated presentations of hardcore non-violent adult pornography over a six-week period, they:


Develop an increased callousness toward women; trivialize rape as a criminal offense; to some it was no longer a crime at all;

Develop distorted perceptions about sexuality;

Develop an appetite for more deviant, bizarre, or violent types of pornography (escalation); normal sex no longer seemed to "do the job;"

Devalue the importance of monogamy and lack confidence in marriage as a lasting institution; and

View non-monogamous relationships as normal and natural behavior.




(Zillman, D., and Bryant, J. "Pornography's Impact on Sexual Satisfaction." Journal of Applied Social Psychology, 1988: vol 18, no. 5, pp 438-453; and Zillman, D., and Bryant, J., "Effects of Prolonged Consumption of Pornography on Family Values." Journal of Family Issues (Dec. 1988): vol. 9, no. 4, pp 518-544.).

I'm sorry man, but if refuse to acknowledge this, you are turning a blind eye to facts.

 

[Outspoken]

"I fail to see the distinction between sex inside and outside of marriage."

then you don't understand, that's simple enough to see. One is relationship building, the other is not. Again, you're building a strawman, no christian views sex as a dirty thing. That's a wrong statement.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by She Believes
Anthony, I like your views. .

They aren't my views, they are what I have done, seen, and heard. I meet with a group of 40 guys who rotate in and out of a Guy's "Christian BS Group". This subject has come up many a time. We debated masturbation for several weeks. Believe me we wanted to come up with some justification to do it. "It will take the demand off our wives", and "I can last longer later for her", "it allows me to release some stress and tension", "it's just entertainment", "it stops me from going after real women","I'am out of town".

Sins are signs, they warn danger is approaching.

 

[coastie]

Originally posted by Pete Harcoff
I fail to see the distinction between sex inside and outside of marriage. Sex is sex. The act is exactly the same. The only difference is people's mindset towards it. Which is my whole point.

Your mindset towards sex is what makes you mroe or less vulnerable toward sexual deviancy.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by coastie
As a clinical psychologist, I have treated, over the years, approximately 350 sex addicts, sex offenders, or other individuals (96% male) with sexual illnesses. This includes many types of unwanted compulsive sexual acting-out, plus such things as child molestation, exhibitionism, voyeurism, sadomasochism, fetishism, and rape. With several exceptions, pornography has been a major or minor contributor or facilitator in the acquisition of their deviation or sexual addiction.

Gee, people with sexual problems are looking at point. What a shocking revelation.

The first change that happened was an addiction-effect. The porn-consumers got hooked. Once involved in pornographic materials, they kept coming back for more and still more. The material seemed to provide a very powerful sexual stimulant or aphrodisiac effect, followed by sexual release, most often through masturbation. The pornography provided very exciting and powerful imagery which they frequently recalled to mind and elaborated on in their fantasies.

As I said, we're sexual beings. It's one of our strongest instincts. How revealing of this professor! *feigns surprise*

The second phase was an escalation-effect. With the passage of time, the addicted person required rougher, more explicit, more deviant, and "kinky" kinds of sexual material to get their "highs" and "sexual turn-ons." It was reminiscent of individuals afflicted with drug addictions. Over time there is nearly always an increasing need for more of the stimulant to get the same initial effect.

Yes, I'm willing to concede that "overdosing" on porn can make it "boring". However, exactly how much porn are they subjecting people to here?

Being married or in a relationship with a willing sexual partner did not solve their problem. Their addiction and escalation were mainly due to the powerful sexual imagery in their minds, implanted there by the exposure to pornography.

I have had a number of couple-clients where the wife tearfully reported that her husband preferred to touch to pornography than to make love to her.

Again, with these cases of people who would prefer porn to their wives. Is it a case of a lack of attractiveness for their wife leading them to porn? Or is it porn causing their wives to become less attractive?

Anyway, I'll stand by my FUD challenge. That whole article seems to try to make out porn as being this evil, destructive force, leading people into a life of sin, blah blah blah. Most of the people I know look at porn (at least, they would admit to doing so) and are perfectly well-adjusted, functioning members of society, some of them happily married.

Like I said earlier, people use similar tactics against all manner of "evils", like rock-n-roll, Harry Potter, D&D, you name it. It's hardly new.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by Outspoken
then you don't understand, that's simple enough to see. One is relationship building, the other is not. Again, you're building a strawman, no christian views sex as a dirty thing. That's a wrong statement.

We're not talking about relationships. We're talking about sex. Those are two different things. Sex before a marriage or sex after. There's no difference except what people imagine in their minds.

And yes, some Christians do view sex as a "dirty" thing.

 

[Outspoken]

"There's no difference except what people imagine in their minds.
"

wrong Christians don't view it as dirty and that is a strawman Pete, burn it if you want, but its quite a stereotype and not true at all.

 

[coastie]

Originally posted by Pete Harcoff
Gee, people with sexual problems are looking at point. What a shocking revelation.

you missed the point of that passage completely

As I said, we're sexual beings. It's one of our strongest instincts. How revealing of this professor! *feigns surprise*

so let's revel in it and create unhealthy desires that eventually can lead to sexual deviancy.

Yes, I'm willing to concede that "overdosing" on porn can make it "boring". However, exactly how much porn are they subjecting people to here?

DId you read the article in it's entirety. Subjects were exposed to several different amounts.

Again, with these cases of people who would prefer porn to their wives. Is it a case of a lack of attractiveness for their wife leading them to porn? Or is it porn causing their wives to become less attractive?

is that a good reason to look at porn? Because you don't find your wife attractive? your poor wife... I hope she doesn't gain any weight when she has kids.

Anyway, I'll stand by my FUD challenge. That whole article seems to try to make out porn as being this evil, destructive force, leading people into a life of sin, blah blah blah. Most of the people I know look at porn (at least, they would admit to doing so) and are perfectly well-adjusted, functioning members of society, some of them happily married.

Hardly a challenge to prove the authenticity of this guys research. The challenge here is getting you to stop excusing the sin with what you consider rationale.

This guy never said in the article that he is a CHristian. He is a proffessor at UC Berkely, not exactly a "Christian College".

Like I said earlier, people use similar tactics against all manner of "evils", like rock-n-roll, Harry Potter, D&D, you name it. It's hardly new.

tactic? It's all a ploy, he made up all of this research for what purpose? To ruin people's fun? Come on now... if you are going to discount this man's studies on the basis that you just don't like them, then this entire discussion is futile.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by coastie
Additionally, empirical research suggests that when experimental subjects are exposed to repeated presentations of hardcore non-violent adult pornography over a six-week period, they:

First of all, who are these people? What are their pre-existing notions towards sex? Backgrounds? Behavioral patterns?

Develop an increased callousness toward women

Define an "increased callousness toward women". And are we talking a significant increase?

trivialize rape as a criminal offense; to some it was no longer a crime at all;

And what were their opinions beforehand?

Develop distorted perceptions about sexuality;

Define "distorted perceptions".

Develop an appetite for more deviant, bizarre, or violent types of pornography (escalation); normal sex no longer seemed to "do the job;"

I'll grant this. And, like anything, I'll grant it's possible to "overdose" on porn. BUT, this doesn't necessarily mean that people that "intake" porn at a normative level would require more "bizarre" porn to "do the job".

Devalue the importance of monogamy and lack confidence in marriage as a lasting institution; and

Again, what were their pre-existing notions?

View non-monogamous relationships as normal and natural behavior.

Given societal behavior, it appears that non-monogamous behavior IS normal and natural behavior. Why try to force people to be something they are not?