Popes are Redundant?

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Oh pleeeeeze!! Baloney!!!

Read The Future of Freedom: Illiberal Democracy at Home and Abroad. It's a foundational contemporary text in democratic theory, and it rightly credits the church with laying the first seeds in the tree of freedom. Written my an Indian Muslim, no less.

 

[Hentenza]

Read The Future of Freedom: Illiberal Democracy at Home and Abroad. It's a foundational contemporary text in democratic theory, and it rightly credits the church with laying the first seeds in the tree of freedom. Written my an Indian Muslim, no less.

Hey GCC,

I have no problems with the church laying the seeds of freedom. What I have a problem with is "The rise of democracy, did, however, produce fascism and communism around half the globe."

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Hey GCC,

I have no problems with the church laying the seeds of freedom. What I have a problem with is "The rise of democracy, did, however, produce fascism and communism around half the globe."

Well, how did fascists and communists get to power? Germany, Austria, Spain, Agentina, the Philippines, Chile, Nicaragua, and Portugal are just a few of the major examples where democratic electoral process has led to fascist or communist victories... and sometimes both.

 

[sunlover1]

There are no "ex-Catholics", only non-practicing ones.

I dont understand.
Actually I was baptised catholic as an infant.

You may be right here, but my challenge to you would be that if you are the discerner and definer of your Faith (i. e., "I will no longer practice my Faith according to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, because I know the mission, instruction and demands of Faith better than it has been able to discern"), then.....

K, I agree so far, I disagree with
Priests not marrying (Scripture.)
Abstaining from meats (Scripture)
Praying to Mary (Scripture)
Rosary praying because it's rote ..."
worship of saints.
Bowing to statues
Confessing my sins to a stranger
And other things

Surely you don't think I need to do these things
to be a child of God do you?
Isnt it loving and obeying God, caring for
His people and listening for His voice in
choices we make that is capital?

We're born again, He's chosen us
before the foundations of the earth.
He calls us friend!!

....you are your own "Pope".

You are serving the role of "papa" yourself that Catholics assent to in their practice of Faith in the authority of Church. You are assenting to your own definition of Faith.

NOoooooooo, God IS my ABBA.
There is none beside Him.

Unless you became Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Baptist (sorry if I left anyone out). Then, in my opinion, you are assenting to a congregationally-defined specific Faith against a broader more loosely defined "generic" practice of Faith.
The question really comes down to - definition of Faith practice. If you believe that you can pick up the Bible and get it - good for you.

Of COURSE I can understand the gist of the Bible.
What I just said above I learned right from the very
Book.
It's easy peasy to realise that God gave us his Word
in WRITTEN form so that it CAN BE passed on and on.

Besides, the bereans were called more noble because
the CHECKED themselves, rather than just following
what the very apostles told them.
Yet you say not to question "the church".
I even hold the Apostles words superior to the CC.
I WANT to be a Berean Trento, don't you?

Then how come the guy across the pew from you picked up the same Scriptures, and got something different? If he got exactly the same thing in all areas - great, the mystery of the Holy Spirit is alive and well guiding the discernment of your assembly.

??
Don't you believe that the Holy Spirit, (GOD)
who lives inside our hearts, HELPS us in every way?
GUIDES us as we read His precious words?

If he initally got something a little different, but then saw his error when presented with your interpretation, then good. He has assented to the authority of your reading, and now you are his "papa" too.

No, thats not what I would be.
I would be a fellow Christian, foolishly telling
another to listen to MY way without also
being a berean.
When friends come to me for Scriptural answers
I end my answer with, "BUT check the Bible,
that's just MY view"

That's how this stuff works - I believe it to be inescapable. If you are discerning, and not accepting someone elses help and authority in this area - you are the Pope for you.

God's not my helper??

Who then is leading who? If there is dissent, the dissenters split and form their own congregation (or fire the preacher). The split then becomes the mechanism for a divergent Faith practice (if there is no difference in discernment, there would have been no split; no firing).

What foolish men choose to do does not negate
God's will or God's word.

Jesus deposited the Christian Faith in the vessel that is the Apostles, who have passed that Faith on to us. The Church has been the guardian and teacher of that Faith, without compromise to "pleasing the crowd".

No offence to you Trento.
YOu seem to really care about me.
And I love you as you know.
But in answer to the above statement.
BS
(spoken respectfully in love)

Admittedly, there have been times when that guardianship was tarnished,

OKAYYYY now thats more like it.

Thank you and God bless you.

but all in all, the institution has survived intact, in spite of the quirks and follies of the men running it. The authority, the "final say" if you will, of that institution is THE OFFICE of the Pope, which is filled by a man - just like you or I. He occupies the same office that was held by Peter, who was given this authority and this office as recored in Scriptures - by Jesus. This is taken on Faith.

Flesh and blood cannot discern that I guess.
I have a gift of faith, but not the faith to trust men yet.

You are unconcerned in what the first Christians believed ?

Outside of the ones who were chosen to
record it, yes.
First sinners, first mortals, just regular guys.
There was a special annointing on the Apostles and
other Bible authors.
They are all in agreement.
Scripture cannot be broken.

Islam is broken up into many denominations and sects as they are like Protestants . No authoritive Church just the Koran to interpret for themselves.

Certainly apples and oranges dont you think?
We have the LIVING GOD
living IN US!!!!!!!!!






love,
sunlover

 

[Fireinfolding]

I love your posts Sunlover Right on sis

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There are no "ex-Catholics", only non-practicing ones.

Well, I am an ex-Catholic, but I am a practicing CHRIST-ian.

Luke 19:27 but those My ENEMIES, who did not wish Me to Reign over them, bring hither and down-slaughter/kata-sfaxate <2695> (5657) before Me.'

Matt 23:35 that on YOU may come all the righteous blood being poured out on the land from the blood of Abel the righteous,

Reve 18:24and in HER, blood of prophets and of saints was found, and of all the ones having been slaughtered/esfagmenwn <4969> (5772) upon the land.

 

[sunlover1]

I love your posts Sunlover Right on sis

OH GOOD, gives you something to read while you're
taking it easy LOL.

love you,
when you gonna
come and go DIRT
biking with me?

LOL.
Just kidding, aint been on a
dirt bike in lotta years lol.

We can dream anyhow.
Glad you're feeling better.
Don't overdo.

love,
s

 

[ps139]

John 21:15-19- Jesus reinstates Peter after Peter's lapse of faith when he denied Christ 3 times. I find it interesting that Jesus asks Peter three times if Peter loves him. Also note that Jesus addresses Peter as Simon.

3 times was something like a legal contract in the Jewish culture. It meant that the request/oath was super serious. Here Jesus addresses him as "Simon bar Jonah," (Simon son of Jonah) which again denotes the seriousness of what is going on.

No one can feed Jesus sheep and lambs if they don't love Jesus. Jesus tells Peter to follow Him and feed his sheep. So, what how do you interpret feeding Jesus sheep? How does these verses attest to Peter's supremacy over the other disciples?

Well, the way I see it is that Jesus was going to ascend to Heaven soon, and He tasked Peter with feeding His sheep. "Sheep" being members of the Church, and Peter entrusted to shepherd them and take care of them. If that is not appointing someone to leadership, I don't know what is.

Please cite some specifics. Thanks.

Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Mt 10:2; Mk 3:16; Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him the "first" (10:2).

As I said, oftentimes the apostles are simply referred to as "Simon/Peter and his companions" (Lk 9:32, Mk 1:36 & 16:7, Acts 2:14, 1 Cor 15:5) Also, Peter frequently spoke for the apostles as a group (Mt. 16:13-16 & 17:24, Mk 8:27-29, Lk 12:41, Jn 6:67-69)

The same cannot be said about any other apostle.

Luke 22:28-32
28You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."
33But he replied, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death."
34Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."

The context of these verses support the view that Jesus prayed for Peter because Peter was about to deny Jesus not because Peter had supremacy. As a matter of fact in verse 28 and 29 Jesus is specific that He conferring the earthly kingdom to those who stood by Him in His trials. Peter did not stand by Jesus but denied Him 3 times instead.

So, if I understand this right... Jesus prayed for Peter's faith because Peter was about to deny Jesus? That seems to me then that Jesus prayer failed, which we both know is impossible. I understand it as Jesus knowing Peter would deny Him, and praying for Peter to "turn back" and "strengthen the brethren." Was anyone else tasked to strengthen the brethren? No. A leader strengthens the others in the group.

John 20:1-2
1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"

If in fact the apostle that Jesus loved is John, then Mary Magdalene would have known specifically where he was. According to the above verses it appears that Peter was with this apostle. Keep in mind that the apostles scattered after Jesus was arrested so it is reasonable to think that Mary Magdalene might not have known where some had gone. However, it is entirely possible for Mary to have known where John was since Jesus entrusted the care of His mother to John.

I honestly do not understand what you mean here. Why would Mary Magdalene know where Jesus was if the apostle Jesus loved is John? I do not see the connection.

I was referring to Mark 16 when I said that the angel of the Lord said to the Marys " "Do not be amazed! You seek Jesus of Nazareth, the crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. Behold the place where they laid him. But go and tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as he told you.'" My point was... why "the disciples and Peter"? Why not just "the disciples"? I offered this as another piece of evidence that Peter was the leader of the 12.

I fail to see how any of these would prove Peter's supremacy. Please expand your thoughts here using actual scripture so that we can examine the context.

They are bits of evidence, which alone do not mean much, but together they show that of the 12, Peter was first in everything... first = leader... leading the others along the way, "blazing the trail," so to speak.

Yes, Jesus did indeed change Simon's name to Peter, however, this fact is not an automatic assumption that Peter was to specifically be supreme over the other disciples.
BTW- Even though Paul was not one of the original 12, Jesus changed his name also.

In isolation, these pieces of evidence are not enough to build a doctrine. I mentioned Peter's name change as evidence of his special role in the Church. In Matt 16, Jesus clarified what the "rock" was all about. Paul had a name change too, that is right, and he also had a very special role!

LOL! We can discussed these until we are blue in the face and not agree.

Yes, very true. But a respectful debate strengthens the reader, writer, and observers, is a good mental exercise, and frankly, time spent discussing Scripture is better than being planted in front of some mindless tv program We learn about each other and being that we are ultimately on 'the same team' I believe it is fruitful.

Briefly, the keys to the kingdom of Heaven refer to spreading the gospel to those who will hear.

Also to address sunlover:

Hi Ps 139,

I think it could very well have been personal,
as far as the keys go only.


Just what does that mean btw, I give to you
the keys of the kingdom of Heaven?
What was Jesus saying to Peter? .

In the ancient world, keys to a city = authority. Why? Walled cities were common because back then you needed them, or else the city could be raided at any time. The guy with the keys to the city gate had free access all over the city and was entrusted with authority. Basically, the guy with the keys was the guy in charge.
Here, Jesus gives Peter keys to the kingdom of Heaven! This is clearly a symbol of spiritual authority. The authority from the "keys to the city" metaphor, and the spiritual in that it is the Kingdom of Heaven.

You can see this metaphor elsewhere in Scriture:
(Is. 22:20-23).

On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah;

I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open

I will fix him like a peg in a sure spot, to be a place of honor for his family;

Rev 1 also shows keys as a symbol of authority:

In his right hand he held seven stars. A sharp two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest.When I caught sight of him, I fell down at his feet as though dead. He touched me with his right hand and said, "Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever and ever. I hold the keys to death and the netherworld.

The terms binding and loosing ties to Jesus command to the apostles to shake the dust of their sandals in those towns that rejected the gospel.

Are you saying that "binding and loosing" somehow refers to the disciples untying their sandals? Did Jesus need to give them this power? Please let me know if I'm misinterpreting you.

The rock in which the church was to be build is the faith in Christ, the chief cornerstone, not in Peter.

I will not address this - I've already posted multiple explanations from Protestant theologians about how Rock = Peter. Here

BTW- Please excuse my abruptness to your post last night. I was really tired and should not have entered into a serious discussion. Please forgive me.

That's quite alright... I've been around the block a few times here, I completely understand.

On that note, I'm out for the night... that post took forever to write and my back is killing me!!!!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I will not address this - I've already posted multiple explanations from Protestant theologians about how Rock = Peter. Here

So who listens to "theologians"?

 

[Fireinfolding]

OH GOOD, gives you something to read while you're
taking it easy LOL.

love you,
when you gonna
come and go DIRT
biking with me?

LOL.
Just kidding, aint been on a
dirt bike in lotta years lol.

We can dream anyhow.
Glad you're feeling better.
Don't overdo.

love,
s

First day back on my butt, doing A OK Sun thanks

I'll buy ya a dirt bike sis, want an armory item?

 

[Fireinfolding]

So who listens to "theologians"?

You can say that till your blue in the face

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

So who listens to "theologians"?

People who would prefer to learn from experts instead of muddle through themselves.

That's like saying 'Who listens to doctors?' when considering health advice.

Theology is a rigerous academic subject that needs to be pursued by rigerously trained experts.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You can say that till your blue in the face

 

[sunlover1]

First day back on my butt, doing A OK Sun thanks

I'll buy ya a dirt bike sis, want an armory item?

rofl.
NOOO, it was a joke silly.
I meant in REAL life as opposed to this
not real life?

As usual it appears I didnt know WHAT I meant

People who would prefer to learn from experts instead of muddle through themselves.

That's like saying 'Who listens to doctors?' when considering health advice.

Theology is a rigerous academic subject that needs to be pursued by rigerously trained experts.

Amen, always nice to get some helps from those
Greek scholars and so forth.
But the very greatest way to learn is through
meditating on His Word and letting Him
lift the top off and reveal what was under there.
It was there all the time yes.
But God loves to 'reveal' something to us,
as we seek and seek and seek after more of
Him.
imo

sunlover

Woo Hoo, it's papa smurf lol.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Amen, always nice to get some helps from those
Greek scholars and so forth.
But the very greatest way to learn is through
meditating on His Word and letting Him
lift the top off and reveal what was under there.
It was there all the time yes.
But God loves to 'reveal' something to us,
as we seek and seek and seek after more of
Him.
imo

No doubt. The Scriptures contain great power for all, clergy, theologian, laity, or monastic, who will meditate on their truths.

Where I make a distinction is between the trained theologian who can construct a systematic theology on the basis of sound biblical scholarship, and who thus has the ability and status to challenge the church, and the average layman whose meditations on Scripture are no less (likely more) meaningful but is more likely to find authentic spiritual edification than theological truth.

 

[Fireinfolding]

People who would prefer to learn from experts instead of muddle through themselves.

That's like saying 'Who listens to doctors?' when considering health advice.

Theology is a rigerous academic subject that needs to be pursued by rigerously trained experts.

It sure didnt work for that woman with the issue of blood eh GCC? Hey... she spent all she had on physicians and instead of getting better she grew worse, that can sorta be a lesson for us too right?

Besides, I have my own experiences with doctors and not so happy endings myself. Although I knew better in trusting in them or taking their so called advice it was me that failed (knowing better) and suffered for trusting any man, for myself, my own daughter and/others as it pertains to "experts of God" concerning my spiritual life. No fancy degree, medical knowledge, advice, white jacket, white robe or ordination papers means too much to me, Both have potential to deliver nothing that is alive in the end, so I have found.

On each account from past to present they knew nothing, yet they have pushed themselves in my face parading their papers trying to shove their credentials down my throat. Literally and spiritually I found myself looking at something lifeless in the end.

Man...had I LISTENED to what I KNEW was true in my heart and how I felt led things might have turned out different, at least on a few occassions, though specifically on what I feel was my most important one.

I'll take their pain meds Not their advice EVER AGAIN... and it repeats itself when i ignore what I have just learned but trust again. I have repeatedly learned the hard way in many various ways and situations that the so called experts dont know everything. More often then not my inner leading (intuition, or whatever one wants to call it) knew better then them. I attributed it to God teaching me to trust His guidance for me. If I had listened my own (God given) leadings my life would be very different today. My lessons included turning from listening to (Him within) turning to listen to the (so called expert) "for me" without.

More and more I felt this instructed me experientially. It brought me more confidence in God and a knowing He is with me and is true. He (who whispers to me in the way I should take) can indeed be trusted. I think its more difficult to believe He can do that for us, and it sometimes appears easier to trust a so called expert to do that for us. There is no expert more wiser then Him thats for sure

Sorry I went on and on:o I had to get that off my chest, though I'm not really speaking to you GCC just sorta thinking "outloud".

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Understandable.

On the other hand, I'd be dead if it weren't for doctors and modern medical science. I was in a coma a few years back. Weren't for some quick thinking I'd be quite underground at this point.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Understandable.

On the other hand, I'd be dead if it weren't for doctors and modern medical science. I was in a coma a few years back. Weren't for some quick thinking I'd be quite underground at this point.

Understandable as well GCC and I'm certainly glad you are still with us. When someone you love dies because one of their screw ups, I suppose its a bit natural to feel contrary. At this point one might prefer to be buried underground alongside their most recent screwup.

The trust is broken, but it was only the straw that broke the camels back and followed many smaller things.

Nothing gets my goat more then the pushing of others on me, the rule of men, their expertise, and their so called credentials down my throat to play overlord. Sometimes those playing the expert dont know squat and do more harm then good.

Its an irk... I'm glad your still here GCC

 

[sunlover1]

No doubt. The Scriptures contain great power for all, clergy, theologian, laity, or monastic, who will meditate on their truths.

Where I make a distinction is between the trained theologian who can construct a systematic theology on the basis of sound biblical scholarship, and who thus has the ability and status to challenge the church, and the average layman whose meditations on Scripture are no less (likely more) meaningful but is more likely to find authentic spiritual edification than theological truth.

Just difference of opinion Gratia, (how rare here )
I personally would choose revelation from God over
theologians. But indeed, balance is key in everything.
And I do have a son in his fifth year
of college majoring in religion, bless his heart.
And I believe God sent Him there too, he hasnt
had to pay a cent.

But that's just speaking of druthers.
I do see the benefit of instruction as well.

But instruction PLUS revelation woah!!
NOW you're talking, huh?!

It takes spending time getting to know HIm,
thirsting after Him, reading His Words,
and mostly, obeying Him before one can
truly understand the superiority of this
method of revelation, where one can
hear it right from the author. To hear
His voice whispering in your ear.

That's the difference between the King Davids
and the sunlovers in this world.


...Seek me with ALL of your heart...
THEN you will find me.

Thus saith the Lord

 

[Fireinfolding]

Just difference of opinion Gratia, (how rare here )
I personally would choose revelation from God over
theologians. But indeed, balance is key in everything.
And I do have a son in his fifth year
of college majoring in religion, bless his heart.
And I believe God sent Him there too, he hasnt
had to pay a cent.

But that's just speaking of druthers.
I do see the benefit of instruction as well.

But instruction PLUS revelation woah!!
NOW you're talking, huh?!

It takes spending time getting to know HIm,
thirsting after Him, reading His Words,
and mostly, obeying Him before one can
truly understand the superiority of this
method of revelation, where one can
hear it right from the author. To hear
His voice whispering in your ear.

That's the difference between the King Davids
and the sunlovers in this world.


...Seek me with ALL of your heart...
THEN you will find me.

Thus saith the Lord

Amen sis!!