Pope, King of the world?

[spiritman]

don't you find it the least bit odd that a Man who is supposedly able to impart infallible truth, could end up believing something that is patently UNtrue?

nevermind if he ever taught it or not... that just seems really, really, really inconsistant.

secondly, the layity arbitrating doctrine, is also inconsistant with the "you can't interpret unless you've been given the infallible ability to do so."

on the one hand, we're told " you can't use your private judgement" and on the other, told that the ability exists... and you just call it sensus fidelium? (another slap in the face to every other Christian in the world that isn't Catholic, by the way. "the 'faithful' just know that we're right."

Good points. I find its easy to determine truth. Truth can hold up to any scrutiny or examination but error is inconsistent and contradicting.

 

[simonthezealot]

So please do not think it appropriate to start posting that Catholic teach the Pope is God on Earth or that the Pope is King of Kings or such. That is simply not true.

see my post above Jack...If the pope accepts the crown after what is said then the pope stands behind it...
thou art the father of princes and kings, the ruler of the world, the vicar on earth of Our Savior

 

[JacktheCatholic]

don't you find it the least bit odd that a Man who is supposedly able to impart infallible truth, could end up believing something that is patently UNtrue?

Why ask questions you know the answer to unless you are implying something you know to be untrue but for which you choose to believe regardless.

Meaning... the Pope is not an impecible man and it is only when in the Chair of Peter that what is taught is infallible and this is because the charism the Pope has allows no error from the man because of the intercession and power of God (you have been told this numerous times).

 

[HisWordisTruth7]

Sounds pretty bizarre for being part of a kingdom that is not of this earth...This is a part of someone who is called the servant of servants..

 

[Trento]

We see in Acts, chapter 15 how the apostles and the elders came together under the leadership of St. Peter to decide the question of what was required of Gentiles.

False. The last statement, and Judgement on the matter was made by James, not Peter.


now I know I've just wasted my time, and I only have myself to blame. But I couldn't let that one pass.... too many inaccuracies.[/quote]


I have history and Protestant Scholars agreeing with me.

Eminent Protestant Bible scholars F.F. Bruce and James Dunn (neither has ever been accused of being an advocate of Catholicism, as far as I know -- Bruce calls himself a "Paulinist") give an account of Peter's role in the Jerusalem Council not inconsistent with mine:

According to Luke, a powerful plea by Peter was specially influential in the achieving of this resolution . . . James the Just, who summed up the sense of the meeting, took his cue from Peter's plea.

(F.F. Bruce, Peter, Stephen, James, and John, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1979, 38)


Paul . . . made no attempt to throw his own weight around within the Jerusalem church (Acts 21; cf. 15.12f.)

The compromise, however, is not so much between Peter and Paul . . . as between James and Paul, with Peter in effect the median figure to whom both are subtly conformed (James -- see acts 15.13ff. . . . ). Is this not justifiably to be designated 'early catholic'?

(James D.G. Dunn, Unity and Diversity in the New Testament, London: SCM Press, 2nd edition, 1990, 112, 356)

 

[JacktheCatholic]

see my post above Jack...If the pope accepts the crown after what is said then the pope stands behind it...
thou art the father of princes and kings, the ruler of the world, the vicar on earth of Our Savior

The part ou bolded in red here can be understood in theological terms to be accurate if understood in the proper context and knowing that any power the Pope has come from the Keys and the authority of God as a King gives authority to a Prime Minister or other kings in his realm.

Surely you can see the difference.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Sounds pretty bizarre for being part of a kingdom that is not of this earth...This is a part of someone who is called the servant of servants..

Jesus received all power from God. Do you deny Jesus is king of Earth?

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

.

Why do I get the feeling that there have been hundreds of threads on the pope, that they contains thousands of extremely similar posts with make the same arguments and counter-argumets over and over again...
.... and that nobody gives a rat's keyster about what the other side has to say.

Now, am right or what. ???

.

 

[MaxP]

Don't worry Trento, History isn't true if it disagrees with what everyone would like to think.

 

[simonthezealot]

Well Mark I think your wrong, those arguing without listening may not care...But those listening without arguing surely desire the truth...

 

[JacktheCatholic]

And how on earth would you have ever come across his writings? I had never heard of him.

The Seventh Day Adventist church has a few that have spammed the internet with older writings and often have been proven to have falsified the translations from Latin as I showed in my previous posts regarding Vicarius Filii Dei as being the number of the beast.

This encyclopedia that was written during the 17th and 18th century (in Latin) has come under attack from a few lines in the encyclopedia which i believed unjust liberties in their translation has occurred.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Why ask questions you know the answer to unless you are implying something you know to be untrue but for which you choose to believe regardless.

then let me rephrase the question. WHY don't you find it odd?

Meaning... the Pope is not an impecible man and it is only when in the Chair of Peter that what is taught is infallible and this is because the charism the Pope has allows no error from the man because of the intercession and power of God (you have been told this numerous times).

that makes it almost completely useless.

but I know it' snot about impeccibility... however, if a Man can BELIEVE something untrue... how is it that he could not teach it?

the assertion is: the Pope and Magicsterium can't teach error. (apparently though, they can believe it.)

I have history and Protestant Scholars agreeing with me.

bully for you. I could care less if you can quotemine a few people who agree with you.

Eminent Protestant Bible scholars F.F. Bruce and James Dunn (neither has ever been accused of being an advocate of Catholicism, as far as I know -- Bruce calls himself a "Paulinist") give an account of Peter's role in the Jerusalem Council not inconsistent with mine:

According to Luke, a powerful plea by Peter was specially influential in the achieving of this resolution . . . James the Just, who summed up the sense of the meeting, took his cue from Peter's plea.

(F.F. Bruce, Peter, Stephen, James, and John, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1979, 38)

took his cue from, does not equal what you are saying. So Peter said something, it was agreed with, and James said "It is therefore my judgement....

James made the final decision in this case. NOT Peter.

Paul . . . made no attempt to throw his own weight around within the Jerusalem church (Acts 21; cf. 15.12f.)

which of course, speaks NOTHING about whether or not he regarded Peter as the master of the Church.

The compromise, however, is not so much between Peter and Paul . . . as between James and Paul, with Peter in effect the median figure to whom both are subtly conformed (James -- see acts 15.13ff. . . . ). Is this not justifiably to be designated 'early catholic'?

(James D.G. Dunn, Unity and Diversity in the New Testament, London: SCM Press, 2nd edition, 1990, 112, 356)

this last bit doesn't make much sense.

again though, who you find that agrees with you (or seems to... these passages don't say what you seem to think they do) doesn't have an Iota to do with it.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Don't worry Trento, History isn't true if it disagrees with what everyone would like to think.

I was thinking something similar.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

but I know it' snot about impeccibility... however, if a Man can BELIEVE something untrue... how is it that he could not teach it?

the assertion is: the Pope and Magicsterium can't teach error. (apparently though, they can believe it.)

That sounds about right.

But then consider how priests have received a charism that can never be taken away or a baptized person receives a rebirth in spirit that cannot be undone and so on. The Holy Spirit works differently in all of us as Paul wrote, that we are all a part of the body with different charisms.

So it is easy to see how a person that has been given such a gift of the spirit can be protected in this.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Well Mark I think your wrong, those arguing without listening may not care...But those listening without arguing surely desire the truth...

And those listening and arguing may care and want to knwo the truth...


You forgot that one.

 

[HisWordisTruth7]

Jesus received all power from God. Do you deny Jesus is king of Earth?

Your trying to equate Your pope with Jesus? ...I see QUITE a differance between the pomp and circumstance with the pope and the humility Christ walked in... All the origial apostles were give the authority of the keys..The church was ALWAYS conciliar..HIS kingdom is NOT of this earth..

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Well Mark I think your wrong, those arguing without listening may not care...But those listening without arguing surely desire the truth...

Well I don't know about the onlookers, but I don't see any posters budging one inch - in any thread.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

.

Why do I get the feeling that there have been hundreds of threads on the pope, that they contains thousands of extremely similar posts with make the same arguments and counter-argumets over and over again...
.... and that nobody gives a rat's keyster about what the other side has to say.

Now, am right or what. ???

.

You are correct. I recall this same encyclopedia issue being addressed elsewhere.

Search: http://christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=2888126

Closed thread: http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6760872&highlight=Prompta+Bibliotheca&page=25

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Your trying to equate Your pope with Jesus? ...I see QUITE a differance between the pomp and circumstance with the pope and the humility Christ walked in... All the origial apostles were give the authority of the keys..The church was ALWAYS conciliar..HIS kingdom is NOT of this earth..

All that for a simple yes or no.

How awesome...

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Your trying to equate Your pope with Jesus?

They dress the same at least. LOL.