Pope, King of the world?

[MrPolo]

Lucius Ferraris

Were you seeking to criticize Lucius in the OP, or were you arguing that the Catholic Church teaches God's law can be modified?

 

[Trento]

Yes, and my preference is and always will be the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Of course what else can you expect from those that follow men and their institutions. They will talk about what is dear to their heart.

In the New Testament, Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride (Ephesians 5:25-27. Just as there was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him (2 Corinthians 11:2 Ephesians 5:24). At the Second Coming of Christ, the church will be united with the Bridegroom, the official "wedding ceremony" will take place and, with it, the eternal union of Christ and His bride will be actualized (Revelation 19:7-9; 21:1-2.

In the Old Testament I see God's continual involvement in the lives of the Israelites through appointed prophets. God delivered, instructed and admonished the Israelites. He made His motions in a visible, specific and formal way. He always did so through human hands, mouths, feet, minds and wills. God established a law and a means for executing it.
In concert with His redemptive act, Jesus did three things that established the framework of His Church. First, He chose humans to carry out His work.
Second, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles the power and authority to carry out His work. "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven."(Matthew 16:19; 18:18) "Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained."(John 20:23)
Third, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles commands as to what that work should be. At the last supper, He commanded, "Do this in memory of Me." (Luke 22:19) He commanded them to "Make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19), and to "Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15)
The early Church was structured in a hierarchical manner as it is today. We see in Acts, chapter 15 how the apostles and the elders came together under the leadership of St. Peter to decide the question of what was required of Gentiles. We also see how St. Peter was regarded as the head of the Church when St. Paul, "Went up to Jerusalem to confer with Kephas [Peter] and remained with him fifteen days." (Galatians 1:18)

 

[MrPolo]

And how on earth would you have ever come across his writings? I had never heard of him.

 

[Rick Otto]

~... were you arguing that the Catholic Church teaches God's law can be modified?

No argument. By cornering the intellectual market with the claim of sole interpreting authority, they ipso facto reserve the right to modify it, if only to make it more "understandable".

 

[Rick Otto]

He chose humans to carry out His work.

Not all of it. He didn't choose humans to do the work of The Holy Spirit.

 

[spiritman]

In the New Testament, Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride (Ephesians 5:25-27.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".

"The pope is the supreme judge of the law of the land... He is the vicegerent (replacement)
of Christ, who is not only a Priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords."
La Civilia Cattolica, March 18, 1871, quoted in Leonard Woosely Bacaon,
An inside view of the Vatican Council (American Tract Society ed.), p.229

Is the Pope your god and your king and your Lord?

 

[simonthezealot]

Were you seeking to criticize Lucius in the OP, or were you arguing that the Catholic Church teaches God's law can be modified?

I am showing a number of things...Mostly though the point is the elevated position the pope has been placed in throughout the last 1100 years which is in opposition to scripture, and that while modern catholics fain to admit it this elevation...Those in places of authority do. The writings of Feraris are authentic and approved by the magisterium.

 

[simonthezealot]

And how on earth would you have ever come across his writings? I had never heard of him.

I study history Polo...
I read Dr.s of divinity from both the reformed and the unreformed camps...
When blasphemies such as these arise the highlighter pen comes out.

 

[simonthezealot]

My goal is to help open the eyes of those whom wonder about the infallibility of the Pope...When people start to recognise that his position is not only indefensible but unscriptural as well, it will be difficult to rationalise staying in a church that promotes false doctrines...I think unam sanctum for example is a prime sample of just such a thing, anyone reading this with an unseered conscience can see this so-called "infallible" (which it absolutely qualifies as) statement, STRAIGHT out contradicts scripture.

 

[MrPolo]

The writings of Feraris are authentic and approved by the magisterium.

That's what I'm asking. Cuz even the Catholic Encyclopedia brings into question the nature of some of Ferraris' writings, calling them "laxist", i.e. trying to define things too broadly.

Which magisterial document approves Ferraris' words on the Papacy in article 2 of Prompta Bibliotheca?

 

[MrPolo]

I study history Polo...
I read Dr.s of divinity from both the reformed and the unreformed camps...
When blasphemies such as these arise the highlighter pen comes out.

Which book or website pointed you to the writings of Ferraris?

 

[simonthezealot]

Which book or website pointed you to the writings of Ferraris?

Delineation of Roman Catholicism (I think volume 3) I own a some of his work in hard copy but I believe it is available online as well...Written by
Rev.Charles Elliott D.D.

 

[HisWordisTruth7]

That's the thing..If people would take time to look at unbiased information instead of what is APPROVED for they to read they might learn something...What is a shame is the you have to believe this to be a part of this church and accept it with docility. Why are we told to study? Why id His word a lamp and light..Is not His will for us in His word...If people would have followed scripture instead of Jim Jones things would came out different....We will be held accountable for how we handled His will/word and applied it to our lives NOT for our choice of church !!!!

 

[simonthezealot]

Which magisterial document approves Ferraris' words on the Papacy in article 2 of Prompta Bibliotheca?

Knew you were gonna ask that...Shoulda went looking before I posted it...Bear with me I'll get it.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I'm an absolute fool, and a glutton for punishment... because I'm about to respond to a snip and tack post.

ah well... boring day anyways.

In the New Testament, Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride (Ephesians 5:25-27. Just as there was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him (2 Corinthians 11:2 Ephesians 5:24). At the Second Coming of Christ, the church will be united with the Bridegroom, the official "wedding ceremony" will take place and, with it, the eternal union of Christ and His bride will be actualized (Revelation 19:7-9; 21:1-2.

agreed. This has squat to do with the topic of the Pope.

In the Old Testament I see God's continual involvement in the lives of the Israelites through appointed prophets. God delivered, instructed and admonished the Israelites. He made His motions in a visible, specific and formal way. He always did so through human hands, mouths, feet, minds and wills.

completely incorrect. God DID do the above, but you adding ALWAYS makes it an inaccurate statement. God moved through people, and sometimes he did it all on his own. The whole of scripture is a testament to the relationship between God and man, but oft enough God did it himself, and left men to do no more than marvel at his power.

God established a law and a means for executing it.
In concert with His redemptive act, Jesus did three things that established the framework of His Church. First, He chose humans to carry out His work.

he chose humans to go forth and make diciples of all the nations. the work of Christ, as you so call it, was completed at Calvary.

Third, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles commands as to what that work should be. At the last supper, He commanded, "Do this in memory of Me." (Luke 22:19) He commanded them to "Make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19), and to "Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15)

of those commands applied only to Peter et al.... why do you spread the gospel? Why do you take part in the communion? etc...

it wasn't "Pope" specific words and commands.

The early Church was structured in a hierarchical manner as it is today.

they had leaders, yes. But it looked NOTHING like it does today.

We see in Acts, chapter 15 how the apostles and the elders came together under the leadership of St. Peter to decide the question of what was required of Gentiles.[/quote] False. The last statement, and Judgement on the matter was made by James, not Peter.

We also see how St. Peter was regarded as the head of the Church when St. Paul, "Went up to Jerusalem to confer with Kephas [Peter] and remained with him fifteen days." (Galatians 1:18)

this speaks nothing of him being recognized as head of the church. he went up to Jerusalem to confer with Peter.

Confer.to consult together; compare opinions; carry on a discussion or deliberation.

that hardly seems like he was going to get orders from Papa Peter.


now I know I've just wasted my time, and I only have myself to blame. But I couldn't let that one pass.... too many inaccuracies.

 

[Trento]

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".

"The pope is the supreme judge of the law of the land... He is the vicegerent (replacement)
of Christ, who is not only a Priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords."
La Civilia Cattolica, March 18, 1871, quoted in Leonard Woosely Bacaon,
An inside view of the Vatican Council (American Tract Society ed.), p.229

Is the Pope your god and your king and your Lord?

This quote doesn't fact check. This is an exact quote that appears on several dozen anti-Catholic sites. I am unable to locate any document named "Cities Petrus Bertanous" nor to identify who the Barclay is. Please provide the full name of the Barclay and a birth or death year, a link to "Cities Petrus Bertanous", or a link to the document by Pius V where the words "The Pope and God are the same" appear (in any language).

Scripture admonishes us not to bear false witness. If you believe the above quote to be true, then please prove it.


Just as the Spirit infallibly guides the magisterium so that it doesn't propose teachings that would lead the whole Church into error, so there is a flip side to the infallibility coin: The faithful, as a whole, have an instinct or "sense" about when a teaching is—or is not—in harmony with the true faith.
The same Spirit actively infusing His Will in the minds of the whole Faithful is also actively protecting the teaching Church, the Magisterium, how to interpret the will of the Faithfu which is called sensus fidelium sense of the faithful.

If the need arises the layity can arbitrate doctrine. Pope John XXII was soundly and successfully rebuked by the lay masses when he temporarily espoused belief in a false doctrine. I recall St. Francis and St. Cathrine of Siena giving advice to Popes and their heeding to that advice. The Pope is not God or King He is the servent of servents.

 

[simonthezealot]

now I know I've just wasted my time, and I only have myself to blame. But I couldn't let that one pass.... too many inaccuracies.

He fits well on the ignore list...

 

[Uphill Battle]

Just as the Spirit infallibly guides the magisterium so that it doesn't propose teachings that would lead the whole Church into error, so there is a flip side to the infallibility coin: The faithful, as a whole, have an instinct or "sense" about when a teaching is—or is not—in harmony with the true faith.
The same Spirit actively infusing His Will in the minds of the whole Faithful is also actively protecting the teaching Church, the Magisterium, how to interpret the will of the Faithfu which is called sensus fidelium sense of the faithful.

If the need arises the layity can arbitrate doctrine. Pope John XXII was soundly and successfully rebuked by the lay masses when he temporarily espoused belief in a false doctrine. I recall St. Francis and St. Cathrine of Siena giving advice to Popes and their heeding to that advice. The Pope is not God or King He is the servent of servents.

don't you find it the least bit odd that a Man who is supposedly able to impart infallible truth, could end up believing something that is patently UNtrue?

nevermind if he ever taught it or not... that just seems really, really, really inconsistant.

secondly, the layity arbitrating doctrine, is also inconsistant with the "you can't interpret unless you've been given the infallible ability to do so."

on the one hand, we're told " you can't use your private judgement" and on the other, told that the ability exists... and you just call it sensus fidelium? (another slap in the face to every other Christian in the world that isn't Catholic, by the way. "the 'faithful' just know that we're right."

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I am showing a number of things...Mostly though the point is the elevated position the pope has been placed in throughout the last 1100 years which is in opposition to scripture, and that while modern catholics fain to admit it this elevation...Those in places of authority do. The writings of Feraris are authentic and approved by the magisterium.

This encyclopedia which was started by Lucius is valued for teaching. I do not think that is in question. This encyclopedia may have some things that imply or say the Pope is like a king or Lord and such and if so then they are the writings of a Jesuit and his zealous understanding of things in his era as well as others.

But if we are to assume that the translation from Latin is accurate then we must also know that a n encyclopedia is not the Catechism. Even though an encyclopedia has an Imprimi Potest or Imprimatur it is not seen as inerrant but is seen as having been approved for print and circulation.

More on approved writings for distribution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprimatur

I think we need to address this before any one thinks to say Catholicism sees the Pope as:

From the Source:Lucius Ferraris "Papa," art. 2, in his Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica. ("Handy Library"), Vol. 5, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition, column 1823, Latin.

#1. "ThePope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God."

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."

#18. "As to papal authority, thePope is as it were God on earth, Sole sovereign of all the faithful of Christ, chief king of kings, having a plentitude of unbroken power, entrusted by the omnipotent God to govern the earthly and heavenly kingdoms."

#30. "The Pope is of so great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws."

The bolded in red portions I still believe to be bad translations and not what is being said in Latin. But even if these are good translations I still say we all need to know how this encyclopedia is seen regarding Catholic teachings. I will say that it is not seen as scripture, as being inerrant or inspired by God. In think we will find that it was written by a Jesuit priest and that it was worked on further after this priest died. We will find that the writings were reviewed and approved by bishops. And that this encyclopedia is seen as a valuable teaching tool.

So please do not think it appropriate to start posting that Catholic teach the Pope is God on Earth or that the Pope is King of Kings or such. That is simply not true.

 

[simonthezealot]

http://www.traditio.com/tradlib/coron.txt

THE CORONATION OF POPE LEO XIII ON MARCH 3, 1878 TRADITIO Traditional Roman Catholic Network E-mail: traditio@traditio.com, Web: www.traditio.com Copyright 2007 CSM. Reproduction prohibited without authorization. Last Revised: 08/07/07 THE CORONATION OF POPE LEO XIII ON MARCH 3, 1878 From "Catholic World," "The Coronation of Pope Leo XIII" [pp. 280-285] Rome, March 20, 1878 From Our Special Correspondent ...The Pontiff himself had resolved to make his appearance, and be crowned before the people, in the upper vestibule of St. Peter's. The Mass and other functions, prefatory of the coronation, were to have been performed in the Sistine Chapel. In fact, on the 1st of March the members of the Sacred College each received an intimation from the acting Secretary of State that the ceremonies preceding the coronation would be performed in the Sistine Chapel of the Vatican Palace. In the vicinity of the inner balcony of St. Peter's temporary balconies were erected for the diplomatic corps, the Roman nobles, and persons of distinction, native and foreign. The confession of St. Peter and the papal altar under the dome were surrounded with a strong railing to prevent accidents, while the central balcony itself was enlarged by extending it farther out into the basilica and back into the vestibule. It had been the intention of His Holiness to be crowned here, and afterwards to bestow the apostolic benediction upon the people below. But on Friday afternoon, March I, the workmen received orders not only to discontinue but to undo the preparations.... At half-past nine o'clock on Sunday morning, the 3rd of March, Pope Leo XIII, preceded by the papal cross, and surrounded by the attendants of his court, by the Swiss and Noble Guards, descended from his apartments to the vestry hall. The two seniors of the cardinal-deacons, the penitentiaries of St. Peter's, and the archbishops and bishops awaited him there. When he had been vested in full pontificals, with golden mitre, a procession was formed, moving towards the ducal hall. A Greek deacon and subdeacon, in gorgeous robes, attended upon the deacon and subdeacon of honor. The cardinals were assembled in the ducal hall, where an altar was erected. His Holiness knelt for a moment in prayer, and then mounted a throne which stood on the gospel side of the altar. There he received what is termed the first obeisance of the cardinals, who approached, one by one, and kissed his hand. The archbishops and bishops kissed his foot. Having imparted the apostolic benediction, the Pope intoned Tierce of the Little Hours. Another procession was formed, preceded by the first cardinal, who bore the sacred ferule in his hand and chanted the Procedamus in pace. The Pope was carried in the gestatorial chair under a white canopy borne by eight clerics. The Blessed Sacrament had previously been exposed in the Pauline Chapel. Thither the procession moved. At the door of the chapel the Pope descended from his chair, entered the chapel bareheaded, and knelt for a time in silent prayer. It is to be supposed that in those moments he prayed for humility of self, as well as peace and benediction upon his reign. It is the fitting prelude to the significant ceremony which followed. Just as the procession was about to move from the chapel-door towards the Sistine Chapel a master of ceremonies, bearing in his hand a gilded reed, to the end of which a lock of dry flax was attached, approached the throne, and, going down upon one knee, gave fire to the flax. As it burned quickly to nothing he said: Pater Sancte, sic transit gloria mundi," Holy Father, thus passeth away the glory of the world." He repeated the same ceremony at the entrance to the Sistine Chapel, and again just as the Pope was approaching the altar - a sage reminder, for the Sistine Chapel at that moment presented a spectacle of glory and magnificence which has no parallel. Sixty-two cardinals, in flowing robes of the richest scarlet, the magnificence of which was enhanced beneath tunics of the finest lace - and as many attendant train-bearers in purple cassocks and capes of ermine; archbishops and bishops vested in white pontificals; clerics of the apostolic palace in robes of violet; Roman princes, gentlemen of the pontifical throne, in their gorgeous costumes; officers and guards in splendid uniforms; diplomatic personages ablaze with decorations; Knights of the Order of Jerusalem in their historic vesture; ladies in black habits and veils, gracefully arranged, and gentlemen in the full dress of the present day. Despite all this splendor, the most trivial worldling could not but be impressed with the sacred solemnity, the awful genius of the occasion. A Pope was to be crowned - "the Great Priest, Supreme Pontiff; Prince of Bishops, heir of the apostles; in primacy, Abel; in government, Noe; in patriarchate, Abraham; in order, Melchisedech; in dignity, Aaron; in authority, Moses; in judicature, Samuel; in power, Peter; in unction, Christ" [St. Bernard]. The Mass has begun. The choir has sung the Kyrie Eleison in the inimitable style of the Sistine Chapel. The Pope has said the Confiteor. He returns to the gestatorial chair. The three senior cardinals of the order of bishops, mitred, come forward, and each in turn extends his hands over the Pontiff and recites the prayer of the ritual, Super electum pontificem. Cardinal Mertel, first of the officiating deacons, places the pallium upon his shoulders, saying at the same time: Accipe pallium, scilicet plenitudinis Pontificalis officii, ad honorem Omnipotentis Dei, et gloriosissimae Virginis Mariae, Matris ejus. et Beatorum Apostolorum Petri et Pauli et Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae [Receive the pallium, that is, of the fullness of the Pontificial office, for the honor of Almighty God, and of the most glorious Virgin Mary, His Mother, and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul of of the Holy Roman Church]. Leaving the gestatorial chair, and ascending the throne on the gospel side of the altar, the Pope again receives the obeisance of the cardinals, of the archbishops and bishops. The Mass proper for the occasion is then celebrated by the Pontiff, and the Litany of the Saints recited. The solemn moment has arrived. The Pope again ascends the throne, while the choir sings the antiphon, Corona aurea super caput ejus. The subdean of the Sacred College, Cardinal di Pietro, intones the Pater noster, and afterwards reads the prayer, Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, dignitas Sacerdotii, etc. The second deacon removes the mitre from the head of the Pontiff, and Cardinal Mertel approaches, bearing the tiara. Placing it on the head of the Pope, he says:
Accipe thiaram tribus coronis ornatam, et scias te esse Patrem Principum et Regum, Rectorem Orbis, in terra Vicarium Salvatoris Nostri Jesu Christ, cui est honor et gloria in saecula saeculorum

TRANSLATED....
[Receive the tiara adorned with three crowns and know that thou art the father of princes and kings, the ruler of the world, the vicar on earth of Our Savior, Jesus Christ, to Whom is honor and glory for ever and ever]. The Pope then arose and imparted the trinal benediction. This was followed by the publication of the indulgences proper to the occasion. From the Sistine Chapel the Pope, with the tiara still glittering on his brow, was borne in procession back to the vestry hall, whither the cardinals had preceded him.... His Holiness then retired to his apartments, and the solemn assembly dispersed.


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,739026,00.html?iid=chix-sphere