Pope Francis backs same-sex civil unions

[Ananias]

First of all, I'm not going to download a pdf file.

*shrug* We're done, then.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Post: Pope Francis backs same-sex civil unions

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

OK, but some of us don't center our lives on theistic belief or a particular interpretation of the Bible. I'm just saying we should try to live and let live, that is what civilized people do when they disagree. You respect my rights and I respect yours.

That's one thing, to live by your belief and no one is stopping that, nor I'm sure, do you try to stop anyone else. It is another to stand in the position of Pope and undermine scripture - and magisterial teaching of thousands of years (since they consider that equally important).

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I truly thought that this was a joke or over exaggerating a press release of some kind.

Then I looked at the news...

Can they excommunicate the Pope?

I know that they are about to have a civil war within the ranks.

We were warned this was all going to happen.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

It seems what you're really demanding is respect for relationships we find sinful. Not a live and let live attitude of liberalism. Don't pretend your position is neutral because it isn't, it is just as forceful as any other political ideology in ultimately demanding compliance.

That last sentence is correct. This is a forceful ideology that does demand compliance.

 

[Quartermaine]

In the wake of Bostock and Obergefell, it's only a matter of time. Once you make homosexuality or "gender identity" a right rather than a privilege, Churches are opened to legal jeopardy if they refuse to affirm. Case law will play out but I fear Bostock will be controlling law on this issue unless something dramatic happens.

Another example.

the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association said they wouldn't rent a venue to a minority. Just like what would have happened if they had refused to rent to an interracial couple or to a Hindu couple

 

[Hazelelponi]

In the wake of Bostock and Obergefell, it's only a matter of time. Once you make homosexuality or "gender identity" a right rather than a privilege, Churches are opened to legal jeopardy if they refuse to affirm. Case law will play out but I fear Bostock will be controlling law on this issue unless something dramatic happens.

Another example.

This is a good article for you to read:

Can Pastors and Churches Be Forced to Perform Same-Sex Marriages?

Now that the Supreme Court is safe from legislation from the bench for another generation, it's difficult to imagine a time in our lifetimes that we loose religious protections and free speech protections.

Most cases that are brought against religious freedom, are more often than not brought first against the Catholic church which has more funds to defend us all in such cases... (kudos to them for what they do for us on the legal front)

Not only that, but there are groups that specialize in such cases, and many people who take religious freedom seriously donate to them regularly in order to provide free or low cost legal help to those who need it.

If religious freedom and freedom of speech is important to you, you may like to find the best groups to donate to if you can.

As a whole, I see little issues going forward that would successfully, directly, attack religious freedom such that conservative churches no longer remain autonomous from state control.

I understand the future being a concern, religious freedom and autonomy is important to us all, but I do believe theres not enough concern to deny others the same legal benefits, though we disagree with their way of life on religious moral ground.

God tells us to worry only of today, and to live righteously in the now because God will take care of our needs when we do so. He knows what we face, and He knows what the future holds for us and in placing ourselves in His capable hand we find peace no matter the situation.

 

[Ananias]

God tells us to worry only of today, and to live righteously in the now because God will take care of our needs when we do so. He knows what we face, and He knows what the future holds for us and in placing ourselves in His capable hand we find peace no matter the situation.

Sigh. I suppose you are right. This is good advice. Thank you for the correction.

 

[FireDragon76]

That's one thing, to live by your belief and no one is stopping that, nor I'm sure, do you try to stop anyone else. It is another to stand in the position of Pope and undermine scripture - and magisterial teaching of thousands of years (since they consider that equally important).

The Pope isn't doing that necessarily. As Pope, he has some influence over the secular law in some dominant-Catholic countries, some of which have death penalties for homosexuality.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The Pope isn't doing that necessarily. As Pope, he has some influence over the secular law in some dominant-Catholic countries, some of which have death penalties for homosexuality.

I don't think that's right. According to a USA today article, it's only Muslim countries that have capital laws against gays:

Countries Where Being Gay Is Legally Punishable by Death – 24/7 Wall St.

For the most part, I think the pope speaks about secular issues because he has a podium to speak from... that and his personal religion is steeped in liberation theology, who always butt into secular matters and destroy stuff wherever they go.

I just happen to agree with him in this one instance, but overall, yeah not. Lol..

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think that's right. According to a USA today article, it's only Muslim countries that have capital laws against gays:

Countries Where Being Gay Is Legally Punishable by Death – 24/7 Wall St.

For the most part, I think the pope speaks about secular issues because he has a podium to speak from... that and his personal religion is steeped in liberation theology, who always butt into secular matters and destroy stuff wherever they go.

I just happen to agree with him in this one instance, but overall, yeah not. Lol..

Nigeria has a sizeable number of Catholics and has been involved in international anti-LGBT politics.

There are many African countries that still have severe penalties for homosexuality, where gay people must live secretive lives.

A Stunning Map Pinpoints the Worst Places in the World to be Gay

It would not be the first time the Catholic Church has lobbied to decriminalize homosexuality and encourage social toleration. The Church of England and the Catholic Church both lobbied the English government in the late 60's to decriminalize homosexuality.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Nigeria has a sizeable number of Catholics and has been involved in international anti-LGBT politics.

There are many African countries that still have severe penalties for homosexuality, where gay people must live secretive lives.

A Stunning Map Pinpoints the Worst Places in the World to be Gay

It would not be the first time the Catholic Church has lobbied to decriminalize homosexuality and encourage social toleration. The Church of England and the Catholic Church both lobbied the English government in the late 60's to decriminalize homosexuality.

Nigeria while nearly evenly divided, is still majority Muslim and the Islamic community there wants sharia law...

It's anyone's guess how that's going to turn out, but LGB rights aren't going to be first on the Christians priority list there, when they are fighting groups like Boko Haram and others for their way of life.

Many African countries are predominantly Muslim...

LGB rights are normally discussed during times of peace, not in countries with a lot of unrest and overall uncertainty.

 

[FireDragon76]

Nigeria while nearly evenly divided, is still majority Muslim and the Islamic community there wants sharia law...

It's anyone's guess how that's going to turn out, but LGB rights aren't going to be first on the Christians priority list there, when they are fighting groups like Boko Haram and others for their way of life.

Many African countries are predominantly Muslim...

LGB rights are normally discussed during times of peace, not in countries with a lot of unrest and overall uncertainty.

Nigerian bishops have interfered in the internal politics of large Christian bodies, such as the Episcopal Church, even though there is some degree of terrorism and unrest there from Boko Haram (and it's mostly isolated to the northern part of the country). So they aren't so tied down they can't have political stances about gays.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Nigerian bishops have interfered in the internal politics of large Christian bodies, such as the Episcopal Church, even though there is some degree of terrorism and unrest there from Boko Haram (and it's mostly isolated to the northern part of the country). So they aren't so tied down they can't have political stances about gays.

More than 80% of the population (Muslim and Christian both) distrust their government and their military, they are still hammering out how to-do elections (I think they are kind of deciding to alternate between Muslim and Christian leadership politically)

In such a situation where the majority of Muslims want Sharia law and the majority of Christians want Christian leadership and absolutely no one trusts the other side or trusts the government, it wouldn't be my first priority to stand up in favor of gay rights...

I'd be too busy on the political front feeling like I was fighting for my own safety and freedom...

Certainly, I don't think gays should be any less safe, but in such a situation your fighting for your own interests foremost, you worry about others when your own safety is more assured. It's just human nature.

 

[Triumvirate]

The Pope isn't doing that necessarily. As Pope, he has some influence over the secular law in some dominant-Catholic countries, some of which have death penalties for homosexuality.

This is a good point.

 

[Triumvirate]

Nigeria while nearly evenly divided, is still majority Muslim and the Islamic community there wants sharia law...

It's anyone's guess how that's going to turn out, but LGB rights aren't going to be first on the Christians priority list there, when they are fighting groups like Boko Haram and others for their way of life.

Many African countries are predominantly Muslim...

LGB rights are normally discussed during times of peace, not in countries with a lot of unrest and overall uncertainty.

It's not like Nigerian Christians are much better on LGBT really

 

[stevenfrancis]

I am a Catholic Christian, and while not what some refer to as a "rad trad", I am certainly orthodox in my understanding of doctrine. I am traditional and conservative of heart and thought consistently in religion and public life. There is no doubt that our Church is in a crisis of vagueness. Catholics are a mess right now. Many feel the need to either be apologists for the particular pope (cult of personality), rather than the office of the papacy, because they're just afraid to admit we have a bad pope. It happens. The Church has been through it before and unless this is the time which ends with the 2nd coming, we'll no doubt correct course, and then fall into disrepair again.
Pope Francis seems to have picked the tepid path of least resistance. Allowing his progressive personal ideas and opinions to muddy up the waters of the Church in a profound way, and worse yet, not following up with clarity when asked for such by some of the Bishops, and a host of Catholic adherents. Statements like "I won't say a single word", and "Who am I to judge", are the wrong answers for a time of dull focus, vague implantation of heretical thought in a confused Church. Saint Pope John Paul II told us "Be not afraid". Pope Francis is telling us to BE afraid of tradition, scripture, and people that go against the grain of a fallen world.
The answer for Catholics is to stand fast. Don't leave. Don't be duped into leaving Christ because of Judas. Don't be tempted towards the sin of schism. Stay in the Church. Continue to be our part of the body of Christ.
We can also stop making excuses for the vatican. We have a problem. The only cure is prayer, and not falling into schism. God will right this. In my lifetime? Who knows? We also need to pray for Pope Francis. After all: (Matt 18:7) “Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes!

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

The Pope isn't doing that necessarily. As Pope, he has some influence over the secular law in some dominant-Catholic countries, some of which have death penalties for homosexuality.

Which Catholic countries currently have death penalties?

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association said they wouldn't rent a venue to a minority. Just like what would have happened if they had refused to rent to an interracial couple or to a Hindu couple

Source? I didn't find anything about the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association not renting to minorities. I did find an old case where two women could not hold a "wedding" event back in 2007 because there was no such thing. That's not about minorities.

And the Church-run Association was not required to violate religious tenets to satisfy these women even if there were such a possibility in 2007.

To avoid further harassment, the outcome was the Association felt compelled to turn away weddings - because of this non-wedding that was not a legal possibility. Lose-lose.

 

[Tinker Grey]

*snip*

Paragraphs are your friend.