Pope Francis backs same-sex civil unions

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FireDragon76

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Paragraphs are your friend.

It's just an overwrought polemic against prudent religious authority and an appeal to consumerist spirituality. Nothing new here, it's part-and-parcel of the Christian right.
 
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Tinker Grey

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It's just an overwrought polemic against prudent religious authority and an appeal to consumerist spirituality. Nothing new here, it's part-and-parcel of the Christian right.
Well, thanks for taking the trouble. No way I was going to even start on that Wall O' Text.
 
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Quartermaine

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Source? I didn't find anything about the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association not renting to minorities. I did find an old case where two women could not hold a "wedding" event back in 2007 because there was no such thing. That's not about minorities.

And the Church-run Association was not required to violate religious tenets to satisfy these women even if there were such a possibility in 2007.

To avoid further harassment, the outcome was the Association felt compelled to turn away weddings - because of this non-wedding that was not a legal possibility. Lose-lose.
and the result would have been the same if they refused to rent to an interracial couple even if they felt doing so would violate their religious tenets
 
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HIM

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Whether or not he is a legitimate Pope in the line of succession I probably won't know in my life time so I have to accept that he is for the time being. As long as he's not asking me to give up my salvation by actually changing the doctrines of the Catholic Church, and placing as a de fide dogma, which is incumbent upon all Christians in order to BE a Christian
We as individuals change dogma perception by our actions in word and deed, by example and profession. Either we represent Christ and God or ourselves and the world.

As Christians We are all one in Christ. It is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. And We will be known by our fruits.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
John 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
 
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HIM

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It's just an overwrought polemic against prudent religious authority and an appeal to consumerist spirituality. Nothing new here, it's part-and-parcel of the Christian right.
No it is not.
 
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Ananias

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The lack of further Vatican comment on such an explosive issue is very revealing in and of itself. I believe this is Francis and his faction (Bergoglio?) trying to shift the Overton window to the left on this issue. This whole tempest carries the stink of a well-planned psyop. Gin up some controversy that advocates an extreme position, proclaim yourself innocent of the charge, but do so in a way that still moves "consensus" away from where it used to be and towards your actual position. The Vatican is notorious for this kind of thing.

I've been waiting for Bishop Barron to go on Youtube and explain to us how all this is very Roman Catholic, very much in the spirit of Vatican II.
 
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FireDragon76

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I've been waiting for Bishop Barron to go on Youtube and explain to us how all this is very Roman Catholic, very much in the spirit of Vatican II.

Are you kidding?

I like watching Bishop Barron when I feel like being reminded why all is not well in Rome. Practically every other video he does evidences a tendency towards the extreme and the polemical (soft pedaled of course through a veneer of gentility) with shallow analysis of many topics he covers, despite the apparent breadth of citations and references. This is not a man whom I would say has what you might call "basic sanity", to borrow a phrase from contemporary American Buddhist circles- he is not very self-aware. He presents some of the worst stereotypes of a religion possible, presenting Catholicism as a kind of "augmented reality", an appendage to the real world that really has very little of substance to offer except the spiritual equivalent of entertainment and thrills.

With men of the cloth like Bishop Barron, it is no wonder that the Catholic Church is in trouble in the US. He's not some Leftie out to change the Church. He's a reactionary force cloaked in civility and letters.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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and the result would have been the same if they refused to rent to an interracial couple even if they felt doing so would violate their religious tenets
Absolutely incorrect. Race is not a biblical issue at all.

Sexual behavior does have scriptural proscriptions.

You cannot conflate the two, as race is an immutable characteristic. You can't decide to engage in a different race, should it suit you.
 
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Quartermaine

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Absolutely incorrect.
the venue operator would have lost the case in court if they had chosen to discriminate against an interracial couple and they would have lost just the same if they had tried to invoke some sort of religious justification for choosing to discriminate

Race is not a biblical issue at all.

Sexual behavior does have scriptural proscriptions.
yet racists use the bible to justify their prejudice just like homophobes

You cannot conflate the two, as race is an immutable characteristic. You can't decide to engage in a different race, should it suit you.
sure you can, just wear a lot of make up

leaving aside the fact that orientation is no more immutable than race - immutability isn't a factor in deciding what is and what is not discrimination. Religion is entirely a personal choice but it is still illegal to discriminate against someone because of their religion. if that venue operator chose to discriminate and refuse to rent their publicly available space to a Jewish couple they would still be guilty of discrimination.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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yet racists use the bible to justify their prejudice just like homophobes

leaving aside the fact that orientation is no more immutable than race - immutability isn't a factor in deciding what is and what is not discrimination. Religion is entirely a personal choice but it is still illegal to discriminate against someone because of their religion. if that venue operator chose to discriminate and refuse to rent their publicly available space to a Jewish couple they would still be guilty of discrimination.
Scriptures have been twisted to justify racial discrimination by those who don't know what they are talking about. Goodness, Moses was married to a black woman.

Sexual behavior is mutable and all kinds of experimentation is encouraged in schools today. You haven't been in one if you think otherwise. What you are drawn to because of various reasons is unimportant. It's what you DO that matters. Are babies born alcoholics? Or adulterers? No, they are not. They may make a series of decisions that lead them in that direction - or not.

Not much racial experimentation being encouraged, Dolezal and Krug notwithstanding.
 
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Quartermaine

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Scriptures have been twisted to justify racial discrimination by those who don't know what they are talking about.
just like it is twisted to justify hatred of people of other religions or of different orientations.

the fact remains that the owners of the publicly available venue chose to discriminate, they were taken to court and they lost their case
 
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hedrick

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Absolutely incorrect. Race is not a biblical issue at all.

Sexual behavior does have scriptural proscriptions.

You cannot conflate the two, as race is an immutable characteristic. You can't decide to engage in a different race, should it suit you.
Christians used Biblical arguments to justify racial discrimination, and prohibition of mixed-race marriages. Bad exegesis can be used to justify just about any predjudice.
 
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Cis.jd

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I truly thought that this was a joke or over exaggerating a press release of some kind.

Then I looked at the news...

Can they excommunicate the Pope?

I know that they are about to have a civil war within the ranks.
If it starts being done in the church, then yes.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Christians used Biblical arguments to justify racial discrimination, and prohibition of mixed-race marriages. Bad exegesis can be used to justify just about any predjudice.
It "can be". But not successfully. You have to excise parts of scripture to come up with some of the conclusions we have seen both then - and now.
 
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