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Polystrate Fossils

Miami Marlins 2012

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Very well AV. For example, when Mt. St. Helens erupted in 1980, it either blew away or washed large parts of the forest around it. Many tree trunks were ripped away from their roots and washed downstream. Scientists have discovered thousands of polystrate tree trunks at the bottom of Spirit Lake. To their surprise, many of the tree trunks have embedded themselves upright into the soil at the bottom of the lake....so there is a literal forest of dead tree trunks standing upright at the bottom of the lake. They are slowly being covered up by many layers of silt and volcanic ash.

In many thousands of years someone will discover a forest of polystrate tree trunks surrounded by multiple layers of rocks, and I'm sure some creationist (if there is any religion at the time) will point out how this contradicts science and proves Noah's flood was a global historical event.

The fact is that most polystrate tree fossils do have roots, and those that do not can be explained by natural explanations, such as what has occurred at Spirit Lake, in the vicinity of Mt. St. Helens.

As for dead upright trees covered by multiple layers of rocks, in general, there is nothing unusual about them. Many dead tree trunks continue to stay standing up for many years, and if the area round it is blanketed by layers of sediment from volcanic eruptions or other natural means during a short period of time, then the trunk will eventually be preserved cutting across several layers of rocks.

Yes, some sedimentary layers can be formed fast, and others slowly. So age can only be determined by radiometric dating or by the fossil record (in combination with radiometric dating.)
 
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Miami Marlins 2012

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Remember AV, the only thing statigraphy says is that the bottom layer is older than the layer on top, but it doesn't tell us how fast the layers formed. In come cases it could be millions of years, and in others a few years (for example, multiple ash deposits from an active volcano in an area, or layers of mud from floods in a flood-prone area.)

To know age with certainty, you need radiometric dating of the radioactive isotopes in the layers of rock.
 
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CabVet

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AV1611VET

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Okay -- you just spent a large portion of this post telling me that in situ fossils can from quickly -- something I've been saying all along.

Then you want me to believe it has taken millions of years to form these.

And you're wondering why I'm not buying it?
The fact is that most polystrate tree fossils do have roots,
Try 1 in 50.
 
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AV1611VET

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Great video, thanks for posting, but I am 100% sure that creationists will not watch it.
Put me in that catagory -- this conversation is going nowhere.

All I'm hearing is that volcanoes make in situ fossils overnight.

And this is supposed to disprove what exactly?
 
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Miami Marlins 2012

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And this is supposed to [...]prove what exactly?

Scientists never claimed it takes millions of years to form all layers of rock. This is a myth propagated by dishonest creationists who twist the science to say something that it never said.
 
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AV1611VET

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Scientists never claimed it takes millions of years to form all layers of rock. This is a myth propagated by dishonest creationists who twist the science to say something that it never said.
Okay, I'm tired of hearing how dishonest we are -- that's old news now.

Now could we please get back to why there are trees standing upright in layers of rock that are different ages; and why this wouldn't be good evidence of the Flood?

Or are we just venting now?
 
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CabVet

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Okay, I'm tired of hearing how dishonest we are -- that's old news now.

Now could we please get back to why there are trees standing upright in layers of rock that are different ages; and why this wouldn't be good evidence of the Flood?

Or are we just venting now?

Watch the video, it's only 10 minutes.
 
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Miami Marlins 2012

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Now could we please get back to why there are trees standing upright in layers of rock that are different ages; and why this wouldn't be good evidence of the Flood?

Watch the second half of the video, it talks about such trees and why the evidence contradicts your interpretation.

I'm not going to type 1000 words explaining it to you when all you have to do is take 3 minutes to watch the explanation. I've already taken plenty of time to type out the scientific explanation for your benefit, but you don't seem to get it. Perhaps you are a visual learner, so the video might help you better to understand what I'm talking about.
 
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thaumaturgy

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Put me in that catagory -- this conversation is going nowhere.

All I'm hearing is that volcanoes make in situ fossils overnight.

And this is supposed to disprove what exactly?

"Polystrate fossils" (a term used mostly be creationists, not geologists) are not evidence of a global flood but usually more evidence of a rapid deposition of sediments around a tree or some such item.

Remember that when geologists look at the world we see that there are indeed flooding events like levee breaks and flood plain events. We see these every day all over the earth.

To assume that all formations are deposited slowly and methodically is to ignore the reality that sometimes things get deposited quite rapidly!

This is where "common sense" or "wisdom" comes in when people want to play geologist.

It is a simple matter of uniformitarianism. The processes we see happening today probably occurred in the past at about the same rates. This does not mean that everything took millions of years to accumulate.

This is why it is important, when one wishes to play Junior G-Man (geologist-man) that one actually go outside and look at the earth at it IS not as one wishes it to be.

That's why windows are nice, but doors are better.

Want to discuss sedimentology? Go to a river or stream or the ocean shoreline and watch the world. It's a pretty dynamic place.

But it does require actually looking at the world.

Sometimes you have to take your eyes off the heavens and look down at the ground.
 
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RickG

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My source of information is here: Polystrate Fossils.

The site claims polystrate fossils are the best evidence for a global flood. They are ignoring that all those fossils are exponentially older than the biblical flood and formed under different conditions.

I plan to learn this as best as I can -- not that I care for scientific evidence, but so I can try and pwn you guys down on your own level; but I don't hold much hope in that category.

All we ask is for you to read what the science says, not what creationist literature says science says.

I already argued radiohalos [somewhat] successfully -- in my opinion.

Selective reasoning and ignoring the full body of evidence can do that.
 
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AV1611VET

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All we ask is for you to read what the science says, not what creationist literature says science says.
Just answer my questions, and I'll be happy; but if you would rather shoot the messenger and not the message, then I don't have to play along.

This is why I'm normally reluctant to give sources other than the Bible.

You guys were doing a poor job before I gave my source, and now you're doing even worse.
 
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RickG

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Just answer my questions, and I'll be happy; but if you would rather shoot the messenger and not the message, then I don't have to play along.

This is why I'm normally reluctant to give sources other than the Bible.

You guys were doing a poor job before I gave my source, and now you're doing even worse.

I pointed out one problem with your source, there are many, and I don't specifically mean "the source", I mean what "it" says.

Let's begin with your source ignoring that all polystrate fossils are much older than the biblical flood and are formed under different conditions.
 
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AV1611VET

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I pointed out one problem with your source, there are many, and I don't specifically mean "the source", I mean what "it" says.

Let's begin with your source ignoring that all polystrate fossils are much older than the biblical flood and are formed under different conditions.
I don't want to discuss the age of anything, as I believe God embedded age into His creation, as well as the fact that I believe scientists only use dating methods that give them the desired results they are looking for.

So let's just "pretend" everything we are looking at is the same age; and with that, I contend you cannot explain polystrate fossils all over the globe sans a global catastrophe.
 
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RickG

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I don't want to discuss the age of anything, as I believe God embedded age into His creation, as well as the fact that I believe scientists only use dating methods that give them the desired results they are looking for.

So let's just "pretend" everything we are looking at is the same age; and with that, I contend you cannot explain polystrate fossils all over the globe sans a global catastrophe.


So you don't want to discuss anything that proves that polystrate fossils were not caused by the biblical flood.

All of those polystrate fossils are of different ages and causes of formation. Playing the embedded age card doesn't fly. Embedded age is only something made up. If it had any substance there would be evidence supporting it.
 
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AV1611VET

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All of those polystrate fossils are of different ages...
:eek: -- Imagine that!

I would stay out of your local junk yard ("automobile reclamation center" to educatees) if I were you.

You might scratch yourself to death wonder why all the cars ("automobilies" to educatees) aren't the same age.
 
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RickG

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:eek: -- Imagine that!

I would stay out of your local junk yard ("automobile reclamation center" to educatees) if I were you.

You might scratch yourself to death wonder why all the cars ("automobilies" to educatees) aren't the same age.

More obfuscation. Perhaps I should address deliberate misrepresentations in your source. Would seeing that they pick and choose what they want you to read and ignoring the rest wake you up to the fact that what they are presenting is not on the up and up?
 
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AV1611VET

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More obfuscation. Perhaps I should address deliberate misrepresentations in your source. Would seeing that they pick and choose what they want you to read and ignoring the rest wake you up to the fact that what they are presenting is not on the up and up?
/thread
 
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thaumaturgy

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I don't want to discuss the age of anything, as I believe God embedded age into His creation,

Unfalsifiable statement of faith (ergo: NOT SCIENCE)

as well as the fact that I believe scientists only use dating methods that give them the desired results they are looking for.

Unevidenced statement based on your personal ignorance of how science works in general and how specifically geologic dating works (ergo: NOT SCIENCE, but actually accusation of wrong doing WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP. However since you are so ignorant of the actual science it is not technically "bearing false witness". But I'm curious if this is an activity your God approves of? Do you like it when people make fun of your ideas without researching them? I don't think so. We've heard you whine so many times about that very thing. So I'll just assume that Luke 6:31 was part of the Bible you "skipped".)

So let's just "pretend" everything we are looking at is the same age; and with that, I contend you cannot explain polystrate fossils all over the globe sans a global catastrophe.

You skipped my post clearly.

Do do that a lot? Just ignore the stuff that is "inconvenient" for you?
 
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