The Grand Canyon Supergroup

doubtingmerle

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Another evidence for an old Earth is the Grand Canyon Supergroup, which is the layers of rock circled in red in the picture below. This is a set of rock thousands of feet thick at the bottom of the Grand Canyon that has tilted. These tilted layers show every indication of having been deposited over an extended period. Notice also that there are two blocks, with the layers of one block matching the adjacent block, except with an offset. It is obvious that these layers were once continuous across the two blocks. But as continental plates collided, the entire area squished together and uplifted. The tilted layers shown below broke into separate blocks and tilted.

Before the layers tilted, additional sediments had piled up above the Grand Canyon Supergroup rocks. But erosion wiped away the upper rocks including the extension of these layers beyond the surviving rocks. The upper layers continued to erode until the surface dropped down to the level known as The Great Unconformity (marked with a blue line below). Most of the rocks below The Great Unconformity are metamorphic rocks that have been transformed by intense heat and pressure to look quite different from the original rocks. But those tilted layers of the Grand Canyon Supergroup are down there also, still basically in their original state.

[picture removed] - Base picture from https://zionpark.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/GEO-MAP-1.jpg

Years later, the Colorado River changed path and carved out the Grand Canyon, exposing the Grand Canyon Supergroup once again. All of that took millions of years. There is no way around it. It must have taken millions of years.

The layers in the Grand Canyon Supergroup have fossils of single-celled lifeforms piled together to form stromatolite fossils. But there are no fossils with skeletal parts down here. Fossils with skeletons end up above the Great Unconformity line, and single-cell colonies like this end up below that line.

Above these supergroup rocks we find multiple layers, each with their own story. The overall story is illustrated quite elegantly in the beautiful book, The Grand Canyon: Monument to an Ancient Earth. In these layers we find buried sandstones from ancient beaches, shale from clay that had been deposited in shallow waters, and limestone from shells deposited in deeper water. We find buried sand dunes, buried nests, and buried footprints. You can read about all this in that easily understood book.

Each such layer is unexpected by creationism. Each requires an ad hoc explanation. And yes, you can propose an ad hoc explanation for each, but when you multiply the probabilities of each unlikely explanation together, your young Earth creationism beomes very improbable.

Excerpted from Billions of Angels Did It! at my website.
1/25/2023 Corrected per post below.
 
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Nice drawing.

Just out of curiosity, how did someone get that perpendicular cross section?

If I went down the Colorado River in a canoe, could I see both sets of those "tilted rocks" from my canoe?

Or would I have to rely on a set of drawings by faith?

(And is that third word from the end of your post supposed to be "becomes," not "because"?)
 
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The IbanezerScrooge

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Nice drawing.

Just out of curiosity, how did someone get that perpendicular cross section?

If I went down the Colorado River in a canoe, could I see both sets of those "tilted rocks" from my canoe?

Or would I have to rely on a set of drawings by faith?

(And is that third word from the end of your post supposed to be "becomes," not "because"?)




Plus you can, from your canoe, see the sides of the canyon and note the layers and take samples of them. Then you can compare that to other areas around the canyon to get a complete picture of the span of those layers.
 
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AV1611VET

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Plus you can, from your canoe, see the sides of the canyon and note the layers and take samples of them. Then you can compare that to other areas around the canyon to get a complete picture of the span of those layers.

That may be true, but his point is that they are tilted.

And if indeed they are, it doesn't surprise me, as I don't think the Grand Canyon was caused by the Flood in the first place.

I think it was created when God pulled the continents apart in Peleg's time.

HOWEVER, just to see where this goes, let's assume the Grand Canyon was created for the Flood.

In that case, I would postulate that, since God can make water gush from rocks in great magnitude ...

Psalm 105:41 He opened the rock, and the waters gushed out; they ran in the dry places like a river.

... and given the fact that ...

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

... it could be that God used these tilted rocks all over the world to "super soak" the earth during the Flood.
 
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dlamberth

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That may be true, but his point is that they are tilted.

And if indeed they are, it doesn't surprise me, as I don't think the Grand Canyon was caused by the Flood in the first place.

I think it was created when God pulled the continents apart in Peleg's time.
That would have been an extremely violent event, way more so than what the the earth has ever experienced. other. The chaos experienced would have wrecked havoc world wide with massive human and other biosphere deaths. Makes one wonder why no record of said event even happened. By your calculations, God had already cleaned up the Flood mess, and now we have the Continents being pulled/jerked apart, causing yet an even worse mess. Are we to assume that all of those layers above the tilted ones are yet another attempt by God to clean up after jurking apart the contentents? They are not from Noah's flood, as Peleg was born afterwards. None of this makes sense.
 
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dlamberth

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That may be true, but his point is that they are tilted.

And if indeed they are, it doesn't surprise me, as I don't think the Grand Canyon was caused by the Flood in the first place.

I think it was created when God pulled the continents apart in Peleg's time.
That would have been an extremely violent event, way more so than what the the earth has ever experienced, way more than Noah's flood. The chaos experienced would have wrecked havoc world wide with massive human and other biosphere suffering and deaths. Makes one wonder why no record of said event has come forward. Such a world wide event would have been so dramatic that at some level, somewhere, perhaps in the shape of mythology or oral story telling it would have been brought forward to today's understanding. By your calculations, God had already cleaned up the Flood mess before Peleg, but now we have the Continents being pulled apart, causing yet an even worse mess.
 
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AV1611VET

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That would have been an extremely violent event, way more so than what the the earth has ever experienced.

I'd say that's putting it mildly.

Why do you think I capitalize "Flood"?

The chaos experienced would have wrecked havoc world wide with massive human and other biosphere deaths.

Yup.

Makes one wonder why no record of said event even happened.

Um ... where do you think we get it?

By your calculations, God had already cleaned up the Flood mess, and now we have the Continents being pulled/jerked apart,

Yup.

Time to put an end to Pangaea.

... causing yet an even worse mess.

As far as destruction and death, not even close.

I'm not sure anyone died in the breakup.

But it did make a major change to our maps.

Are we to assume that all of those layers above the tilted ones are yet another attempt by God to clean up after jurking apart the contentents?

Nope.

They are not from Noah's flood, as Peleg was born afterwards.

Correct.

None of this makes sense.

Then how is it you got most of what you said correct?
 
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The IbanezerScrooge

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That may be true, but his point is that they are tilted.

And if indeed they are, it doesn't surprise me, as I don't think the Grand Canyon was caused by the Flood in the first place.

I think it was created when God pulled the continents apart in Peleg's time.

HOWEVER, just to see where this goes, let's assume the Grand Canyon was created for the Flood.

In that case, I would postulate that, since God can make water gush from rocks in great magnitude ...

Psalm 105:41 He opened the rock, and the waters gushed out; they ran in the dry places like a river.

... and given the fact that ...

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

... it could be that God used these tilted rocks all over the world to "super soak" the earth during the Flood.
Since this "God" can literally do anything according to your beliefs there is no way to determine what it did or didn't do, so postulating such things is completely pointless.

Instead, we look at the actual rocks and layers, compare that to known, observed and well understood processes and hypothesize how the formations in question came to be. We might be completely wrong, but you would need to present actual observational evidence that contradicts what has already been observed and understood.
 
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dlamberth

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I'd say that's putting it mildly.

Why do you think I capitalize "Flood"?



Yup.



Um ... where do you think we get it?



Yup.

Time to put an end to Pangaea.



As far as destruction and death, not even close.

I'm not sure anyone died in the breakup.

But it did make a major change to our maps.



Nope.



Correct.



Then how is it you got most of what you said correct?
Like with the flood, did God come through again and clean things up after the continent's were jerked apart? Is this also in your perspective when mountain building happened?
 
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AV1611VET

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Like with the flood, did God come through again and clean things up after the continent's were jerked apart? Is this also in your perspective when mountain building happened?

Is there a reason you're using the term "jerked apart," rather than "divided"?

I suspect you're exaggerating, so as to make any reply have to look monumental.
 
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Instead, we look at the actual rocks and layers, compare that to known, observed and well understood processes and hypothesize how the formations in question came to be.

The past is key to the present.

Is that correct?
 
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dlamberth

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Is there a reason you're using the term "jerked apart," rather than "divided"?

I suspect you're exaggerating, so as to make any reply have to look monumental.
Because physically to move the land masses that quickly they would have to been jerked apart.

But what about my question regarding the clean up afterwards.
 
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The IbanezerScrooge

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The past is key to the present.

Is that correct?
In a sense, sure. Given our understanding of physics and chemistry and geological processes, what we see active today were likely also active in the past.
 
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Because physically to move the land masses that quickly they would have to been jerked apart.

But what about my question regarding the clean up afterwards.

If there was a cleanup to be made -- (whether by God or man) -- then I'm sure it was done.

What kind of mess are you looking for?

Some tell me that the energy applied to Pangaea to break it up would have boiled the oceans away into deadly hot steam that would have obliterated the earth.

I point out to them the story of Daniel's friends in the fiery furnace, and how they were divinely protected from thermal damage.

So please give me a scenario, and I'll see if there's anything in the Bible similar to it that God has dealt with.
 
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In a sense, sure. Given our understanding of physics and chemistry and geological processes, what we see active today were likely also active in the past.

And therein lies your problem from our perspective:

Uniformitarianism by natural processes (as opposed to catastrophism by miracles).
 
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This science does not disprove creationism. It casts serious doubt young earth creationism, but not old earth creationism. As a old earth creationist and a believer in theistic evolution, this certainly fits in with what I believe with no contradictions. As you may know most YEC hold that these geologic formations were laid down during the flood year. Essentially these things were created during the 120 days of the flood. I believe in the flood, but not that all these geologic formations came about while Noah was in the boat. Note: there are also numerous Ignatius formations in the grand canyon strata, a scenario impossible to reconcile with the flood sedimentation. Also, many of the eroded layers have signs of life. All these layers intermixed, shuffled, and tilted.
If the earth looks like it is 4 billion years old, it most likely is. If the universe looks 14 billion years old, it most likely is. In my belief system, all this is certainly possible with no contradictions. If you are a believer, do not be dissuaded by these facts.
 
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If the earth looks like it is 4 billion years old, it most likely is. If the universe looks 14 billion years old, it most likely is. In my belief system, all this is certainly possible with no contradictions. If you are a believer, do not be dissuaded by these facts.

Just out of curiosity and nothing else, do you think God cleaned up the mess after the Flood?
 
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doubtingmerle

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Nice drawing.

Just out of curiosity, how did someone get that perpendicular cross section?

If I went down the Colorado River in a canoe, could I see both sets of those "tilted rocks" from my canoe?

Or would I have to rely on a set of drawings by faith?

(And is that third word from the end of your post supposed to be "becomes," not "because"?)
Yes, you can see the Supergroup from within the Grand Canyon. And since the river wanders back and forth on its path, we get various cross sections of the Supergroup.

There are other techniques to analyze the portions that are burried.

And no, science is not based on accepting drawings by faith.

I accept these drawings because they come from a group of informed scientists who relied on peer-reviewed sources. You can find their sources for these rocks on pages 212 and 213 of the book I recommended.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Just out of curiosity and nothing else, do you think God cleaned up the mess after the Flood?
Could have. I don't know. But I do not think He would have erased evidence of the truth of what happened. No disturbing of the crime scene to hide the "crime." He may have had .to work things up to allow for the survival of the Ark passengers. He can do anything. Except lie.
 
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The IbanezerScrooge

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And therein lies your problem from our perspective:

Uniformitarianism by natural processes (as opposed to catastrophism by miracles).
No, that would be your problem.

Uniformitarianism has evidential support. Catastrophism by Miracles has literally zero. i.e. You can not demonstrate your position. I can.
 
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