Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[Dispy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxZKJSNVgqM

In response to you youtube commentator concerning Jacob and Esau.

The following is a protion taken from chapter 9 from the book The Power of God Unto Salvation - Is the Gospel Enough by Joel Finck.

Calvinists often use several verses from Romans chapter 9 to support the notion that God picks some people to be saved and others are "hardened" so they will remain lost. In this chapter, we will show that this simply is not the case. We have already covered Romans 9:11-13, but will review it here so we see it in the context of the entire chapter. "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11- 13).

This remarkable passage is construed by Calvinism to mean that before Jacob and Esau were born, Jacob was chosen to be saved and Esau to be damned. The text says nothing of the sort. C.R. Stam correctly comments, "Surely the above passage has nothing to do with predestination to Heaven or Hell. It does not say, nor imply that God gave eternal life to Jacob but consigned Esau to eternal damnation, much less that God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were born. Nor yet does 'the purpose of God according to election,' in verse 11, have to do with eternal salvation and reprobation, but rather with His purpose to make the descendants of Jacob, rather than those of Esau, His special people."

It can easily be demonstrated that God had nations, not individuals in mind when He said to Rebekah, "The elder shall serve the younger." This quote comes from Genesis 25:23, "And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger."

Furthermore, we know God had nations, not individuals in mind, for Esau never served Jacob personally. But the nation which descended from Esau (Edom) did serve the nation which descended from Jacob (Israel). An example of this is found in I Chronicles, "And he put garrisons in Edom; and all the Edomites became David's servants" (I Chron. 18:13a).

The statement, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:13) is often used by Calvinists to "prove" that God picked Jacob to be saved and Esau to be lost, even before they were born. But the fact is, this statement was first made in Malachi 1:2, some FOURTEEN HUNDRED YEARS after they were born. Again, the point in Malachi is not God's love or hatred for Jacob and Esau, personally. Rather, it refers to God's view of the two nations which descended from these two men.

Now, what is the point of this discussion of Jacob and Esau? Remember the overall context of Romans chapters 9-11 is to explain how God could set aside the Jews and turn to the Gentiles. Paul is simply illustrating from history that God can work through whomever He chooses, and if He decides to depart from the "norm," He has the fight to do so. Technically, Esau should have become the chosen nation, because he was the firstborn. But God, in His sovereignty, chose to use Jacob instead to become the father of the chosen nation.

 

[Gareth]

Where is your scriptural proof to show that nobody went to heaven before YHWH came in the flesh?

YHWH is not Jesus. YHWH stands apart from Jesus as a distinct seperate spiritual entity. In addition to the Scriptures already quoted, Jesus own words bear testament (John 3:13). If YHWH is Jesus then these words of Jesus are a lie, that YHWH died at Calvary is a lie, that YHWH was raised up from the dead is a lie, that YHWH ascended into heaven is a lie, that YHWH sat down at the right side of the throne of God is a lie, that for centuries people have believed and died for has been on the basis of a lie. For YHWH has always existed, he is immortal. Where is your proof that an immortal can die, whereas YHWH says he has always been? Where is your proof that Jesus said he was YHWH as a man, where do the writings of the Apostles and Paul say that YHWH and Jesus are both one and the same?

No wonder people hate religion so much.

 

[savedbygrace57]

It can easily be demonstrated that God had nations, not individuals in mind when He said to Rebekah, "The elder shall serve the younger." This quote comes from Genesis 25:23, "And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger."

You misrepresent scripture, He also had individuals in mind..

The very fact that jacob the individual recieved the birthright blessing that was by design, to go to easu the elder , Illustrated the point for which paul mostly referred to in the First place, and that is God is Sovereign in All things..

 

[yashualover]

YHWH is not Jesus. YHWH stands apart from Jesus as a distinct seperate spiritual entity. In addition to the Scriptures already quoted, Jesus own words bear testament (John 3:13). If YHWH is Jesus then these words of Jesus are a lie, that YHWH died at Calvary is a lie, that YHWH was raised up from the dead is a lie, that YHWH ascended into heaven is a lie, that YHWH sat down at the right side of the throne of God is a lie, that for centuries people have believed and died for has been on the basis of a lie. For YHWH has always existed, he is immortal. Where is your proof that an immortal can die, whereas YHWH says he has always been? Where is your proof that Jesus said he was YHWH as a man, where do the writings of the Apostles and Paul say that YHWH and Jesus are both one and the same?

No wonder people hate religion so much.

I never said they are one and the same.


Father Son and Holy Spirit are one, they are three in essence but they are one.

There is only ONE God. Otherwise to worship Jesus would be idolotry and break the first commandment.

Our puny minds can not fully understand the Trinity, but because our canon of 66 books clearily teach us that, we accept and embrace it.

Now I ask you again to answer my question:

Where is your scriptural proof to show that nobody went to heaven before YHWH came in the flesh?

 

[yashualover]

You misrepresent scripture, He also had individuals in mind..

The very fact that jacob the individual recieved the birthright blessing that was by design, to go to easu the elder , Illustrated the point for which paul mostly referred to in the First place, and that is God is Sovereign in All things..

Amen!

God is Sovereign in all things and does not need the help of us puny pathetic humans.

And Joel Fink the Fink is guilty of verse abuse.

YHWH deals with individuals, for example the prophesied birth of Yeshua through the human called Mary who is an individual.

 

[yashualover]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxZKJSNVgqM

And that's the way the cookie crumbles!

 

[ThomasDa]

Yashualover: Where is your scriptural proof to show that nobody went to heaven before YHWH came in the flesh?

Jo.3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jo.3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven

If he is speaking after they had died and ascended he might have a point.. enoch and elisha never died and the ot saints I believe ascended after christ did..

matt 27:

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Yashualover: Where is your scriptural proof to show that nobody went to heaven before YHWH came in the flesh?

Jo.3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

If he is speaking after they had died and ascended he might have a point.. enoch and elisha never died and the ot saints I believe ascended after christ did..

matt 27:

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

OT saints and unbeliever went to the center of the earth... God moved all the believer to the third heaven after the cross..

did those people who were resurrected ... glorified or just revived to die again ... till the future date?

 

[Dispy]

You misrepresent scripture, He also had individuals in mind..

The very fact that jacob the individual recieved the birthright blessing that was by design, to go to easu the elder , Illustrated the point for which paul mostly referred to in the First place, and that is God is Sovereign in All things..

I will agree with you that God is soverign in all things. BUT, Did Esau ever serve Jacob? Did the elder serve the younger? Maybe you and I are reading different Bibles.

 

[Dispy]

I will agree with you that God is soverign in all things. BUT, Did Esau ever serve Jacob? Did the elder serve the younger? Maybe you and I are reading different Bibles.

Amen!

God is Sovereign in all things and does not need the help of us puny pathetic humans.

And Joel Fink the Fink is guilty of verse abuse.

YHWH deals with individuals, for example the prophesied birth of Yeshua through the human called Mary who is an individual.

PLEASE prove your statement with facts and Scripture. Insulting and accusing an author of verse abuse MUST be proven along with the accusation. If you can show me that the elder served the younger, then I will agree with you.

 

[Iosias]

Chapter 17: Of the Perseverance of the Saints

17:1 They, whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally, nor finally, fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved (John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:5, 9; 2 Peter 1:10; 1 John 3:9).

17:2 This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father (Jeremiah 31:3; 2 Timothy 2:18, 19); upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ (Luke 22:32; John 17:11, 24; Romans 8:33-39; Hebrews 7:25; 9:12-15; 10:10, 14; 13:20, 21); the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them (John 14:16, 17; 1 John 2:27; 3:9); and the nature of the covenant of grace (Jeremiah 32:40): from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof (John 10:28; 2 Thessalonians 3:3; 1 John 2:19).

17:3 Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins (Matthew 26:70, 72, 74); and, for a time, continue therein (Psalm 51:14 and title): whereby they incur God’s displeasure (2 Samuel 11:27; Isaiah 64:5, 7, 9), and grieve His Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30), come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts (Psalm 51:8, 10, 12; Song of Songs 5:2-4, Song of Songs 5:6; Revelation 2:4), have their hearts hardened (Isaiah 36:17; Mark 6:52; 14), and their consciences wounded (Psalm 32:3, 4; 51:8), hurt and scandalize others (2 Samuel 12:14), and bring temporal judgments upon themselves (Psalm 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32).

Question 79: May not true believers, by reason of their imperfections, and the many temptations and sins they are overtaken with, fall away from the state of grace?
Answer: True believers, by reason of the unchangeable love of God, and his decree and covenant to give them perseverance, their inseparable union with Christ, his continual intercession for them, and the Spirit and seed of God abiding in them, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

 

[Dispy]

Chapter 17: Of the Perseverance of the Saints

17:1 They, whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally, nor finally, fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved (John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:5, 9; 2 Peter 1:10; 1 John 3:9).

17:2 This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father (Jeremiah 31:3; 2 Timothy 2:18, 19); upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ (Luke 22:32; John 17:11, 24; Romans 8:33-39; Hebrews 7:25; 9:12-15; 10:10, 14; 13:20, 21); the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them (John 14:16, 17; 1 John 2:27; 3:9); and the nature of the covenant of grace (Jeremiah 32:40): from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof (John 10:28; 2 Thessalonians 3:3; 1 John 2:19).

17:3 Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins (Matthew 26:70, 72, 74); and, for a time, continue therein (Psalm 51:14 and title): whereby they incur God’s displeasure (2 Samuel 11:27; Isaiah 64:5, 7, 9), and grieve His Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30), come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts (Psalm 51:8, 10, 12; Song of Songs 5:2-4, Song of Songs 5:6; Revelation 2:4), have their hearts hardened (Isaiah 36:17; Mark 6:52; 14), and their consciences wounded (Psalm 32:3, 4; 51:8), hurt and scandalize others (2 Samuel 12:14), and bring temporal judgments upon themselves (Psalm 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32).

Question 79: May not true believers, by reason of their imperfections, and the many temptations and sins they are overtaken with, fall away from the state of grace?
Answer: True believers, by reason of the unchangeable love of God, and his decree and covenant to give them perseverance, their inseparable union with Christ, his continual intercession for them, and the Spirit and seed of God abiding in them, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

The doctrine of men.

 

[yashualover]

Chapter 17: Of the Perseverance of the Saints

17:1 They, whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally, nor finally, fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved (John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:5, 9; 2 Peter 1:10; 1 John 3:9).

17:2 This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father (Jeremiah 31:3; 2 Timothy 2:18, 19); upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ (Luke 22:32; John 17:11, 24; Romans 8:33-39; Hebrews 7:25; 9:12-15; 10:10, 14; 13:20, 21); the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them (John 14:16, 17; 1 John 2:27; 3:9); and the nature of the covenant of grace (Jeremiah 32:40): from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof (John 10:28; 2 Thessalonians 3:3; 1 John 2:19).

17:3 Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins (Matthew 26:70, 72, 74); and, for a time, continue therein (Psalm 51:14 and title): whereby they incur God’s displeasure (2 Samuel 11:27; Isaiah 64:5, 7, 9), and grieve His Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30), come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts (Psalm 51:8, 10, 12; Song of Songs 5:2-4, Song of Songs 5:6; Revelation 2:4), have their hearts hardened (Isaiah 36:17; Mark 6:52; 14), and their consciences wounded (Psalm 32:3, 4; 51:8), hurt and scandalize others (2 Samuel 12:14), and bring temporal judgments upon themselves (Psalm 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32).

Question 79: May not true believers, by reason of their imperfections, and the many temptations and sins they are overtaken with, fall away from the state of grace?
Answer: True believers, by reason of the unchangeable love of God, and his decree and covenant to give them perseverance, their inseparable union with Christ, his continual intercession for them, and the Spirit and seed of God abiding in them, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

Amen! Also great to see many scriptures for proof.

Plenty of proof.

 

[yashualover]

Yashualover: Where is your scriptural proof to show that nobody went to heaven before YHWH came in the flesh?

Jo.3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Clark commentary on John 3:13

Joh 3:13
No man hath ascended - This seems a figurative expression for, No man hath known the mysteries of the kingdom of God; as in Deu_30:12; Psa_73:17; Pro_30:4; Rom_11:34. And the expression is founded upon this generally received maxim: That to be perfectly acquainted with the concerns of a place, it is necessary for a person to be on the spot. But our Lord probably spoke to correct a false notion among the Jews, viz. that Moses had ascended to heaven, in order to get the law. It is not Moses who is to be heard now, but Jesus: Moses did not ascend to heaven; but the Son of man is come down from heaven to reveal the Divine will.
That came down - The incarnation of Christ is represented under the notion of his coming down from heaven, to dwell upon earth.
Which is in heaven - Lest a wrong meaning should be taken from the foregoing expression, and it should be imagined that, in order to manifest himself upon earth he must necessarily leave heaven; our blessed Lord qualifies it by adding, the Son of man who is in heaven; pointing out, by this, the ubiquity or omnipresence of his nature: a character essentially belonging to God; for no being can possibly exist in more places than one at a time, but He who fills the heavens and the earth.

 

[savedbygrace57]

I will agree with you that God is soverign in all things. BUT, Did Esau ever serve Jacob? Did the elder serve the younger? Maybe you and I are reading different Bibles.

So are you saying that God lied ?

 

[Dispy]

I will agree with you that God is soverign in all things. BUT, Did Esau ever serve Jacob? Did the elder serve the younger? Maybe you and I are reading different Bibles.

So are you saying that God lied ?

Never said, or implied that God lied. I even agreed with you that God is soverign in all things.

Why don't you answer my questions????????????

 

[savedbygrace57]

Never said, or implied that God lied. I even agreed with you that God is soverign in all things.

Why don't you answer my questions????????????

Yes it was fulfilled spiritually, Jacob Inherited the birthright , easu inherited a curse and excluded out of the covenetal relationship of Gods Love..

In a spiritual sense , all the non elect serve the elect , al things are ours 1cor 3:


21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;
22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

 

[Dispy]

Yes it was fulfilled spiritually, Jacob Inherited the birthright , easu inherited a curse and excluded out of the covenetal relationship of Gods Love..

In a spiritual sense , all the non elect serve the elect , al things are ours 1cor 3:


21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;
22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

WHY DON'T YOU ANSWER MY QUESTIONS? I'LL REPEAT THEM FOR YOU. Did Esau ever serve Jacob? Did the elder serve the younger? That seems to be your grounds of you remark on "verse abuse".

 

[Ben johnson]

Read Romans 8:35-39 again, and then give Paul an answer.

Hi, Dispy. No THING can separate us from His LOVE --- but does He love those who perish, and desire them to be SAVED? Yes.

And Rom8 must be read entirely; "If WE walk according to the flesh, WE must die"...

If what you say is true, then that one he "broke his probation." Eph. 1:12-14 is a lie.

Not at all; the "seal" of the Spirit, in verse 13, is affixed to belief. If belief ends, so does the seal. Rom11:21-23 applies: "Do not be arrogant --- if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold the kindness and severity of God --- to those who fell, severity, to you kindness if you CONTINUE in His kindness otherwise YOU WILL BE CUT OFF; and if they do not continue in unbelief they will be grafted in again..."

Very easy, I look to see to whoml what was written is addressed. At one time I was a postal letter carrier. I had to sort the mail prior to making my delievers. To do that I checked to see the name and address on the letter/parcel to be delivered.

It seems to me that it is easy to make a "theological stand", and then filter what we read in Scripture in light of that stand. I mean no disrespect; how can Peter's words, or James', not apply? If we are understanding wrong, then that can be demonstrated by showing Peter and James mirror things Paul said.

They do.

If the content of the letter said that the adressee had won $1,000,000, I would not have been able to collect it. When Biblical passages are written to Israel, under the Law, It was not written to Gentiles that were not under the Law. Letters that are addressed to the Church, the Body of Christ, (Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law) are for the members of the Body of Christ.

All this time, I've been wondering where my box of money went. Now I know who to blame...

Now, tell me, to whom are the letters of James, 1, 2 Peter, and 1, 2, 3 John written? Were they written to those saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom," or under the preaching of "the gospel of the Grace of God." i.e. "the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, that was kept secret since the world began?

If James and Peter say the same things as Paul said, then we cannot separate or discard entire letters.

Being Israel is "the Bride of Christ," I must assume that you are referring to Israel as the "chosen lady." I am not a Jew or spiritual Jew. 2 John is not written to me as a member of the Body of Christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben johnson
I'm referring to the wording in the first of the chapter....

What words were you referring to. To whom did James, Cephas (Peter) and John agree to remain with in Gal. 2:9?

He's speaking of "the teachings of Christ", therefore it's our dispensation.

To "rightly divide" the Word, one must take into consideration to whom the author is writing and the purpose of the letter. The letters of James, 1, 2 Peter, and 1, 2, 3 John, are written to the dispersed Jews. When reading those letters, keep in mind that they are written to Jewish believers that were saved during the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom," and have an earthly kingdom to look forward to; which they will enter at the 2nd coming of Christ.

So all it remains for me to do, is convince you that James Peter and John were saying the same things as Paul....

When did Paul ever preach "the gospel of the kingdom," and when did Peter, James, and John ever preach "the gospel of the Grace of God." i.e. Jesus Christ...

They all taught the same.

according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began.

The "mystery", is "also-Gentiles".

I was once a sinner that was saved by God's Grace. Like the Corinthians, I a now a saint that still sins.

Do you WALK in sin? No.

Paul is saying that as saved believers, we do not have a license to sin. Paul stresses that we walk in our "calling," "I BEESCH (BEG) you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your selves a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonalbe service" (Rom. 12:1).

He clearly says "If we walk in sin, we must die". It's undeniably, a choice.

What does Paul mean when he wrote in 1 Cor. 6:12: "All things are lawfell unto me, but all thing are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any"? Also in 10:23 " All things are lawful for me, but all thing are not expedient (proper): all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

What he means, is he's responding to a local belief --- "ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL". So he says "Not really; not everything is beneficial".

Again, I was once a sinner that was saved by God's Grace. Now I am a saint that still sins.

...still sins OCCASIONALLY.

If we continue sinning willfully, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the adversaries. Heb10:26

Is Hebrews also a letter that we can ignore? (No offense intended.)