Hi, "Squint". Question --- do you agree that the Holy Spirit, and the Son, physically indwell the believer?
1 John 4:
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for
love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
The "one lump", in context, reflect the "saved". One lump is ON His "Potter's Wheel" --- conveying belief.
Paul also taught that
in the SAME LUMP there
is both a vessel of honor, and
a vessel of dishonor.
Paul also taught, and as Jesus also showed,
that the devil and his messengers are IN mankind and they ARE spoken to IN mankind.
Paul also admitted that he too carried a special messenger of Satan that was given to him to buffet his flesh.
Paul also taught that Israel was given a SPIRIT OF STUPOR that was PUT upon them.
The observation still in play here Ben is that Paul had sin indwelling him that he termed NO LONGER I. Paul also taught that EVIL was present with him.
One lump is made to "honor", the other to "common" --- it is like Paul said in 1Cor12, "There are different gifts; if all were an eye, where would be the hearing? Or if all an ear, where would be the seeing?"
Neither of us is going to escape the fact that indwelling sin is in our flesh as it was for Paul and neither of us is going to escape the fact that whenever we desire to do good, that EVIL is also present with us. This does not make US the SAME AS that which we are bound with, nor does it make the SLAVE of these things the SAME AS what THEY are bound with.
The construction of the Body of Christ is formed IN PART by the TRUTH of these matters as has been disclosed to US ALL. Apart from Truth, there just ain't much understanding available because we are not rendering the "facts" into our understandings.
I blame not you, or I or our fellow fallen believers WHEN we are SLAVES of those workings. Those workings are DONE in the flesh BY the controlling parties to WHOM we are not to YIELD ourselves or our bodies or our minds.
It is the third group, who is not ON the Potter's Wheel, who is not saved --- "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction".
Ben, I really have no use dividing the LUMP when both vessels are so obviously with us as they are with Paul, but that is an attempt that many make. THEY only want to be the "good vessel" and they want to make the OTHER PERSON the vessel of dishonour...BUT the fact is that BOTH vessels are IN OUR LUMP too, as evidenced by SIN INDWELLING and EVIL PRESENT. I have no use to DENY that these are in my FLESH/lump IF those were also in PAUL'S flesh/lump.
Paul knew of their "power" which is BY THE LAW...and Paul said that IN HIS FLESH he still served THE LAW OF SIN...Romans 7:25, meaning that when THE LAW arrives, the presence of sin is both EMPOWERED and REVEALED to be IN US ALL. There is simply no getting around these facts.
We also know that "wherever the Word is sown" SATAN COMES immediately to steal, which does in fact place SATAN in very close proximity...TO the hearts of ALL who hear. Where then would we expect to find MORE VICTIMS of DECEPTION and THEFT than amongst believers? I have no use to shoot my commrades in the back, knowing the confrontations that we ALL face everyday. I have even less use to eternally condemn MY fellow believers. That's just not right.
I can however tell anyone including myself that we should use caution to not be again ENSLAVED by those working powers of darkness. It's just not good to be A SLAVE of SIN because those workings are of the DEVIL in the FLESH...and the body or mind that YIELDS to that IS a SLAVE as long as they are overpowered by that which is IN THEM.
I am not confused; we either walk in Jesus, or walk in sin --- the first reflects "belief", the second "unbelief". It's that black-n-white.
You'll not be convincing me anytime soon that you are sinless in either thought or deed Ben, so let's not even go there.
No unbeliever will be saved --- Scripture is clear on that.
You and I will DIFFER on "who" the "unbelievers" are Ben. If the devil is a liar, then IF he speaks THROUGH MEN, I have no use to condemn the blinded captive, and Jesus did no such thing either.
The devil is the UNBELIEVER, even while speaking TRUTH FROM SCRIPTURE and THAT'S who the devil is and what THE DEVIL does IN mankind.
If you have no measures to determine "who" the parties are that are involved with mankind, HOW would you DETERMINE whether it was PETER SPEAKING or SATAN speaking THROUGH Peter?
God's children speak IN AGREEMENT with the entirety of The Word...and IF they do not, it is NOT THEM, but a SPIRIT OF ERROR that is upon them.
I don't HAVE to blame my fellow believers for that Ben, just as Jesus didn't BLAME Peter for being spoken through by SATAN. Jesus will always rebuke the PARTY who is at FAULT...and Jesus will also SEE that there are more than a SINGLE ENTITY in mankind. I then should see likewise, dontchathink?
In Rev20, people are thrown into the "Lake of Fire".
The term employed is 'THEY' not PEOPLE. People has been recently added by translators who could not see the difference or WHO is in mankind and then just inserted the term PEOPLE.
I have pointed out prior that there is not ONE SINGLE NAMED PERSON of mankind who is said to be going to the infamous Lake of Fire nor is there even ONE SINGLE NAMED PERSON ever threatened with such a fate.
I have NO PROBLEM with the devil and his messengers who are IN MANKIND to suffer that fate and I have NO USE in blurring the lines between these two parties.
You seem to be espousing a form of "Humanism".
Let's not try to spin this Ben. If you find fault with my observations then make specific critique, but obviously I may see a lot more going on in mankind than perhaps what you do?
Many things I have not been able to avoid FROM WORD COMMANDMENTS.
One, I MUST love my neighbors as myself. IF that does not transpire IN ME, then MY FAITH is VOID because
FAITH WORKS through LOVE...and if that is TRUE, which I happen to believe is VERY TRUE, then I should measure ALL MY NEIGHBORS as I would be measured myself...AND I would prefer the measure of LOVE to them as God has so MEASURED to me in Christ Jesus.
You can call this humanism, but I don't think this resembles humanism whatsoever.
I also believe in every eternal torment scripture, so please don't accuse me of neglect. I also believe that THE LAW stands against LAWLESSNESS in the flesh, even in the flesh of BELIEVERS...and the LAW is meant to CONDEMN lawlessness...
The absolute worst hatred available to our fellow man, and to fallen believers in particular is to CONDEMN THEM TO BURN ALIVE in eternal conscious torment. You cannot deliver any GREATER HATRED than that. And that is QUITE the opposite of LOVING them by anyones measures.
What of Heb10:26? Do you think that somehow "fire that consumes the adveraries", isn't permanent?
The FIRE is UTTER AND IT WILL UTTERLY CONSUME and DESTROY the parties for which it intends to consume and destroy.
I gave you a list --- including verses like James5:19-20. I gave you four verses from Paul's letters to Timothy (five verses, I think) --- have you answered them?
I will when you deliver the goods on Romans 11 supplied multiple times now. So far all you did was conceptualize ALL OF ISRAEL but did not say how you got there, AND you tried to make GOD'S CHILDREN the "same as" the spirit of stupor" that was PUT upon them...and I addressed how that is really just altering the text from plain meanings to suit.
Our souls have been redeemed --- we will receive new bodies. Christ redeemed all from the Cross --- each person RECEIVES that redemption (while alive), or rejects it.
Romans 11 clearly says otherwise Ben. Enemies of the Gospel SHALL BE SAVED, and that is a POST MORTEM salvation because THOSE ENEMIES are now very DEAD in the flesh.
Many times action is ascribed to God, that men did to themselves. Pharaoh is an excellent example; it's written that "GOD hardened his heart" (Ex10:1) --- but clearly Pharaoh did it HIMSELF (Ex9:34)
Again Ben, I simply cannot look at a man and SEE only a man when Paul gave US some relatively simple observations for HIMSELF which if understood WILL CHANGE what you see and how you see it. You see ONLY Pharaoh.
I cannot DENY that Satan CONTROLLED Pharaoh or ANY slave of sin because...
"He who commits sin is OF THE DEVIL.." and Pharaoh was certainly not THE DEVIL.
So we do for no uncertain FACT have the DEVIL up to his eyeballs IN EVERY SIN Ben, and in the light of THAT FACT there is no use to see ONLY PHARAOH.
When you get around to rendering the parties, then perhaps we can have a more informed discussion of these matters. Until then Ben, I will not see like a blind man nor do I have to.
enjoy!
squint
