Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[Rick Otto]

This much is true:

"We are not saved by a one time conversion experience."

And it is nothing near what we or scripture assert.

 

[chestertonrules]

So the work of the Holy Spirit holds no weight whatsoever? Furthermore, yet again, we make the cross of Christ of none effect when we say that salvation depends on us. God saves, we don't. As simple as that.

God offers salvation.

We accept it or reject is as free creatures because that is the way God chose to make us.

 

[Ormly]

Certainly, if anyone was ever saved, St. Paul was. Yet he himself states: 1Co 9:27 I punish my body and bring it under control, to avoid any risk that, having acted as herald for others, I myself may be disqualified.
If OSAS were true, he couldn't make such a statement.

The reformers did not hold such an innovation. And today, only a very small fraction of Christians hold such a belief. Even here in a predominantly Evangelical community, it is still a fraction of these who hold to this unbiblical doctrine of man. If it was biblical it would surly have been held by the early Christians. Yet it did not exist and no one held such a belief until the 18th century.

Paul is not speaking of salvation but something in Christ; beyond salvation and simply making it to heaven. He was continually explaining a race to be won by the believer.. . . already secure in Christ.

 

[Rick Otto]

God gifts saving grace to whom He elects.
Whosoever He determined to give it to is spiritualy born into belief followed by repentance. That is the way He chose to creat & save us.

 

[Ormly]

God gifts saving grace to whom He elects.
Whosoever He determined to give it to is spiritualy born into belief followed by repentance. That is the way He chose to creat & save us.

Repentance=works.

 

[CShephard53]

Fine.

Phi 2:12 KJV Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

That does not prove anything except that we should be mindful of our faith, of where we are at.

Jam 5:19 KJV Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jam 5:20 KJV Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Erring from truth is not the same as saying one has devoted their entire life to said truth and walked away from it after salvation has been achieved.

Heb 6:4 KJV For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 KJV And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 KJV If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Nice one. Problem is you can be a partaker of the HS and fall away. You can't if you're filled with the HS.

Also, see this article:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203sbs.asp

Yes, your article, let me address it:

When a Catholic hears the above assertion [Romans 10:9-10], his fist inclination is to immediately launch a litany of verses that emphasize that salvation can be lost. Usually this causes the other person to present just as many verses that speak of salvation as a completed event. Both parties feel as if they have offered plenty of evidence, but no progress has been made.

Right about that. Now, let's get to the real thing.

There’s a better way to go at it. Concede that the Bible does speak of salvation as a past-tense event.

Not in every verse it doesn't. Romans 10:9-10 says 'you will be saved' and that 'it is by ___ and ___ that you are justified and saved', not that it's an event. Salvation is not just a past tense event.

Offer some verses of your own, such as Ephesians 2:8–9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith." From there, add that Scripture also speaks of salvation as a present-tense event. In Philippians 2:12, Paul exhorted us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

As I pointed out, working out your salvation does not imply that you can lose it. It only shows that you need to be mindful of where you're at.

Just as we cannot deny that salvation is a past- and present-tense event, the Evangelical Protestant cannot deny that Scripture also speaks of it as a future-tense event. For evidence of this, verses such as Romans 13:11 might be offered: "our salvation is nearer than when we first believed" (Rom. 13:11; cf. 1 Cor. 3:15; 5:5).

Granted. However, bearing in mind that salvation is also a future event, how can one say that the future event can be nullified? After we achieve glorification, can we repent of our walk with God and go back?

When you emphasize that salvation can be lost, the Protestant often hears, "You have not yet been saved." He knows that the Bible speaks of salvation as a past-tense event, and so no matter how many verses you offer, you will not be able to prove this to be false. The way to move beyond this impasse is to offer the big picture of salvation: past, present, and future.

Good, so far.

The Evangelical will then not feel as if you are trying to prove that he has not been saved, but will perhaps be more open to look at salvation in a broader—and more biblical—context. Once you have reached this point, it’s time to offer the evidence that the free gift of salvation can be just as freely forfeited.

Contradiction. You cannot call salvation a future event and then say that one can lose it before that event even happens.

In the case of John 10:28, Jesus says that no one will be able to take us away from God. The language is similar to Paul’s in Romans 8:39 when he says that nothing in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Both of these passages address the same fact that no one is capable of removing you from the grace of God. No one is capable of nullifying your salvation. It would be like saying that no one is capable of pulling you out of a car driving at eighty miles per hour. This does not mean that you are incapable of opening the door and jumping out. In the same way, John 10:28 does not mean that we are incapable of severing our relationship with God. Read on in John, and you’ll see why.

On earth, perhaps.

Five chapters later in John’s Gospel, Christ tells the apostles at the Last Supper to remain in his love. He adds that if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. But he who does not remain in his love is "cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned" (John 15:6). Now, if salvation were a done deal, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in his love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling them to remain there. If they are unable to leave, it is senseless to ask them to remain.

And if it's not okay to quote it like I have, you can just say this about it:
All this addresses is the past event part of salvation, not all of what salvation is- same with the rest of the article. The article refutes itself by calling salvation a past, present, and future thing.

 

[Rick Otto]

Repentance=works.

That's right. It follows on the heels of belief.

 

[Ormly]

That's right. It follows on the heels of belief.

Absolutely! It is a varification of belief that conversion truly happened. I believe that is the essence of James' writing..

 

[Ormly]

.
Problem is you can be a partaker of the HS and fall away. You can't if you're filled with the HS. .

Huh???

 

[mattlock73]

Absolutely! It is a varification of belief that conversion truly happened. I believe that is the essence of James' writing..

And Paul's as well. Works are necessary. Not for salvation, but for sanctification.

 

[CShephard53]

Huh???

You can have a taste, like Saul did, of the HS and be a partaker and are able to fall away. However, you cannot be filled with the HS and fall away.

 

[mattlock73]

God offers salvation.

We accept it or reject is as free creatures because that is the way God chose to make us.

But here is the rub. When we accept that gift, we are told that we become a new creature in Christ. What you propose is that we can then completely divorce ourselves from our new nature, rejecting Christ who is now united in us and we in Him. While we certainly can turn our backs and walk in the flesh (sin) even after we have been united with Him, scripture tells us that God is STILL faithful, even when we are not. We cannot seperate ourselves from Him after once being joined with Him.

 

[Ormly]

You can have a taste, like Saul did, of the HS and be a partaker and are able to fall away. However, you cannot be filled with the HS and fall away.

1. Saul never had a taste of anything.

2. That raises the bar to include those who were in the NT and fell away simply because many did. Paul speaks of them. Many were indwelt with the Holy Ghost, baptised with the Holy Ghost and then took into themselves, human reasoning that the Lord said He "hated".

 

[Ormly]

But here is the rub. When we accept that gift, we are told that we become a new creature in Christ. What you propose is that we can then completely divorce ourselves from our new nature, rejecting Christ who is now united in us and we in Him. While we certainly can turn our backs and walk in the flesh (sin) even after we have been united with Him, scripture tells us that God is STILL faithful, even when we are not. We cannot seperate ourselves from Him after once being joined with Him.

When one walks away, one forfeits faith and all that is by it. That makes it different than being in Him and simply being faithless.

 

[Rick Otto]

1. Saul never had a taste of anything.

2. That raises the bar to include those who were in the NT and fell away simply because many did. Paul speaks of them. Many were indwelt with the Holy Ghost, baptised with the Holy Ghost and then took into themselves, human reasoning that the Lord said He "hated".

I'm pretty sure no one in the OT was "indwelt", rather The Spirit was "upon" some:
1 Samuel 10:9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day. 10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

 

[mattlock73]

When one walks away, one forfeits faith and all that is by it. That makes it different than being in Him and simply being faithless.

I am not sure I understand completely what you are saying. Even faith itself is not of ourselves, it is from the regeneration of our spirit that we have faith in the first place. If one has a true, saving faith, requiring one to be a new creature in Christ, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and our old spirit regenerated in Christ, how does one simply walk away from our new nature? How does the apple tree produce peaches?

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

But here is the rub. When we accept that gift, we are told that we become a new creature in Christ. What you propose is that we can then completely divorce ourselves from our new nature, rejecting Christ who is now united in us and we in Him. While we certainly can turn our backs and walk in the flesh (sin) even after we have been united with Him, scripture tells us that God is STILL faithful, even when we are not. We cannot seperate ourselves from Him after once being joined with Him.

Well I would say that If anyone was ever saved, it you would have to say that St. paul was. But, he himself admits the possibility of being disqualified:1Co 9:27 I punish my body and bring it under control, to avoid any risk that, having acted as herald for others, I myself may be disqualified.
Clearly he wasn't an OSAS adherent.

 

[mattlock73]

Well I would say that If anyone was ever saved, it you would have to say that St. paul was. But, he himself admits the possibility of being disqualified:1Co 9:27 I punish my body and bring it under control, to avoid any risk that, having acted as herald for others, I myself may be disqualified.
Clearly he wasn't an OSAS adherent.

I disagree. What he is talking about there is not the Great White Throne judgment, but the Bema Seat Of Christ. It is the difference between justification and sanctification.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Can anyone explain this for me. I can't see OSAS in this.

 

[mattlock73]

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Can anyone explain this for me. I can't see OSAS in this.

Sure. It's saying that it's impossible for a believer to fall away (lose their salvation) and them come back again without Christ being crucified anew. It's one of the foundations that support OSAS, not detract from it.