Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[NoDoubt]

I give up.

Nooooo!!!!

 

[chestertonrules]

You clearly weren't educated in the faith, not that it was your fault!

From the catechism:

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.[187]

 

[chestertonrules]

I give up.

You give up because you must reject scripture to maintain your dogma.

 

[chestertonrules]

For the record, here is more scripture you reject:

21So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."

22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

 

[Ormly]

You give up because you must reject scripture to maintain your dogma.

No, I give up because in this your obstancy rules, God won't even go against it..

 

[NoDoubt]

You clearly weren't educated in the faith, not that it was your fault!

From the catechism:

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.[187]

One sec...

Para 1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. "The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession.

Para 1380 …The Church and the world have a great need for Eucharistic worship…

Para 1379 …the Church became conscious of the meaning of silent adoration of the Lord present under the Eucharistic species. It is for this reason that the tabernacle should be located in an especially worthy place in the church and should be constructed in such a way that it emphasizes and manifests the truth of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.

The Bible Says

Deuteronomy 4:13, 15-16 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even Ten Commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake...Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure…

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The Scripture clearly identifies that God is Holy and He alone is worthy of our worship. “Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee…” Revelation 15:4

The Catechism’s physically literal interpretation of Scripture leads to idolatry. According to the Bible, we must not give worship to any false god or idol, meaning anything man-made (as an image) to represent God. In the Old Testament, Aaron fell into this same grave error of idolatry, “…when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, up, make us gods, which shall go before us…” Aaron made the golden calf as a medium through which the Israelites were to worship God. "These be thy gods, O Israel...” he states. As physically literal as Aaron and the people of Israel were, they did not imagine that this image was itself a god. Rather, they made the image a representation of the true God, whom they intended to worship in and through the image. This is idolatry. It is the same mistake the Church of Rome makes at every Mass.​

The true worship of God ought to be in spirit and truth, as the Lord proclaimed, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” This worship brings true peace and true Christian living. Worship of the Eucharist brings about the wrath of God as promised in His Word. God looks upon those who practice idolatry as haters of Him, though they pretend to love Him. He will judge their iniquity. We are told that God is One, “…who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments” (Ex. 34:7b).
We remember the simple Word of the Lord in Mark 13:21, “if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not.” To command worship of the Eucharist is idolatry and idolatry is spiritual adultery. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry 1Co 10:14.​

 

[Ormly]

Nooooo!!!!

Whats the point when up against a mind snapped shut?

 

[chestertonrules]

One sec...

Para 1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. "The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession.

Para 1380 …The Church and the world have a great need for Eucharistic worship…

Para 1379 …the Church became conscious of the meaning of silent adoration of the Lord present under the Eucharistic species. It is for this reason that the tabernacle should be located in an especially worthy place in the church and should be constructed in such a way that it emphasizes and manifests the truth of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.

The Bible Says

Deuteronomy 4:13, 15-16 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even Ten Commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake...Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure…

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The Scripture clearly identifies that God is Holy and He alone is worthy of our worship. “Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee…” Revelation 15:4

The Catechism’s physically literal interpretation of Scripture leads to idolatry. According to the Bible, we must not give worship to any false god or idol, meaning anything man-made (as an image) to represent God. In the Old Testament, Aaron fell into this same grave error of idolatry, “…when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, up, make us gods, which shall go before us…” Aaron made the golden calf as a medium through which the Israelites were to worship God. "These be thy gods, O Israel...” he states. As physically literal as Aaron and the people of Israel were, they did not imagine that this image was itself a god. Rather, they made the image a representation of the true God, whom they intended to worship in and through the image. This is idolatry. It is the same mistake the Church of Rome makes at every Mass.​

The true worship of God ought to be in spirit and truth, as the Lord proclaimed, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” This worship brings true peace and true Christian living. Worship of the Eucharist brings about the wrath of God as promised in His Word. God looks upon those who practice idolatry as haters of Him, though they pretend to love Him. He will judge their iniquity. We are told that God is One, “…who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments” (Ex. 34:7b).

We remember the simple Word of the Lord in Mark 13:21, “if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not.” To command worship of the Eucharist is idolatry and idolatry is spiritual adultery. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry 1Co 10:14.​

You don't get it.

The eucharist is the real presence of Christ.

I challenge you to find a single Christian in the first 1000 years of Christianity who didn't believe this central tenet of our faith.

 

[Ormly]

You don't get it.

The eucharist is the real presence of Christ.

Whom you crucify again and again. That's his point, isn't it, based upon your remarks that he disagrees with and has given his reasons why? . . . that you refuse to understand.

 

[chestertonrules]

1 Cor 11

For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

1 Cor 10

I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
Early Church Fathers:

circa 150 A.D.: St. Justin Martyr,
First Apology, 66
St. Justin is talking about the Mass, and he has described the consecration and communion. Then he says

We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins annd for regeneration, and is thereby living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread nor as common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our flesh and blood is nourished, is both the flesh and blood of that incarnated Jesus.​

circa 165 A.D.: St. Irenaeus of Lyons Adversus Haereses Book 4, ch. 18, s. 5

Then, again, how can they say that the flesh, which is nourished with the body of the Lord and with His blood, goes to corruption, and does not partake of life? Let them, therefore, either alter their opinion, or cease from offering the things just mentioned.(4) But our opinion is in accordance with the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn establishes our opinion. For we offer to Him His own, announcing consistently the fellowship and union of the flesh and Spirit.(5) For as the bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread,(6) but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly; so also our bodies, when they receive the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity.​

Augustine


"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

"I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ" (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).



You may hold a different opinion, but realize that in so doing you are rejecting the bible and the first 1000 years of Christianity, not to mention the majority of Christians in the world today.
​

 

[chestertonrules]

Talk about illiterate!!

From the catechism excerpt above:

But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish ONCE AND FOR ALL on the cross

 

[seekingpurity047]

I believe this thread has been raped by the OBOB congregation... What a shame that people believe they can lose their salvation. I guess Jesus didn't come into the world to save sinners... I guess the work isn't finished... Wow... what a shame

 

[CShephard53]

It's biblical. You can characterize it however you like, but you can't change it!

- Hebrews 12:14 "Strive for peace with all men and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- John 15:1-6 "...Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he [the Father] takes away...Abide in me and I in you...I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit...If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."

- John 6:53-54 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

We are not saved solely by works, that is not biblical in the least. Ephesians 2:8-10 point to that, as do others. It's both together, not just works. Justification, sanctification, glorification.

 

[ReformedChapin]

If its the reformed doctrine of eternal security by his regenerating grace then I voted YES.

 

[Ormly]

Talk about illiterate!!

From the catechism excerpt above:

But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish ONCE AND FOR ALL on the cross

WoW! Whatta distortion of the intention of Jesus.

 

[chestertonrules]

We are not saved solely by works, that is not biblical in the least. Ephesians 2:8-10 point to that, as do others. It's both together, not just works. Justification, sanctification, glorification.

Nor would I ever make such a claim.

We are saved by the grace of Jesus.

We can choose to reject this grace, however, by our thoughts and actions.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Care to show any proof, that is if it exists.

Certainly, if anyone was ever saved, St. Paul was. Yet he himself states: 1Co 9:27 I punish my body and bring it under control, to avoid any risk that, having acted as herald for others, I myself may be disqualified.
If OSAS were true, he couldn't make such a statement.

The reformers did not hold such an innovation. And today, only a very small fraction of Christians hold such a belief. Even here in a predominantly Evangelical community, it is still a fraction of these who hold to this unbiblical doctrine of man. If it was biblical it would surly have been held by the early Christians. Yet it did not exist and no one held such a belief until the 18th century.

 

[chestertonrules]

WoW! Whatta distortion of the intention of Jesus.

John 6

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

 

[seekingpurity047]

So the work of the Holy Spirit holds no weight whatsoever? Furthermore, yet again, we make the cross of Christ of none effect when we say that salvation depends on us. God saves, we don't. As simple as that.

 

[NoDoubt]

You don't get it.

The eucharist is the real presence of Christ. No

I challenge you to find a single Christian in the first 1000 years of Christianity who didn't believe this central tenet of our faith.

I do get it.

The Catechism Says:​

Para 1357 … bread and wine which, by the power of the Holy Spirit and by the words of Christ, have become the body and blood of Christ. Christ is thus really and mysteriously made present.

Para 1374 … In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist ‘the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained, ‘This presence is called 'real'…

The Bible Says:

Hebrews 10: 10-14 ... we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Mathew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Catechism

Para 1376 … that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.

Bible

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Catechism

Para 1380 It is highly fitting that Christ should have wanted to remain present to his Church in this unique way. Since Christ was about to take his departure from his own in his visible form, he wanted to give us his sacramental presence…


According to the Bible Jesus was offered up on the cross for the sins of His people. After His death and resurrection, He was taken up into the clouds and is perpetually seated at the right hand of God the Father. Before His departure from this world, Jesus had many conversations in which He foretold the manner of His return. The Bible is clear that Jesus Christ will return in the same manner that He was taken up and that it will be just as obvious. Matthew 24:27 states, “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” To put it in more simplistic terms, Jesus said that He would come back in bodily form just as when He departed, He in no way every mentions in His Word, that He would return in the from of a piece of bread.


Before He left, Jesus promised His followers to send the Holy Spirit to comfort and guide them, so they would not be as orphans. God has given us a spiritual presence of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit, “… And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 1 John 5:6-7. “…And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth, …ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you,"
John 14:16-17.


It is imperative to know Jesus Christ spiritually by faith. For the written Word of God will bear witness to the real Messiah. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. Mark 13:21-22. Have you come to know Jesus spiritually, are you trusting by faith in Him alone?