Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Jesusfreak5000:
So what do you believe is the difference, Ben? Regeneration, being "born from above" is a one-time act, since it is paralleled by Jesus to physical birth.​

I don't believe it's really "one-time". If you read the tense of 2Cor5:17, as I quoted it conveys a CONTINUING position. The old is pass-ING away. In essence, we abide in regeneration, as we abide in Christ.

This is the clear dictate of passages such as Rom6; by "considering ourselves dead to sin but alive in Christ", we walk in the Spirit's regeneration. If we begin to walk in sin/flesh/lust, then we are no longer regenerated. Such walking IS possible for the truly-saved, and IS "unbelief".

(Look at how 1Jn1:6-10 addresses this!)

Quote:
It is spiritual rebirth - something that happens in a moment, not an ongoing process (such as sanctification), just as physical birth is not an ongoing process. How could there be a difference in what "born from above" means under the old covenant and new covenant, if all that it means is spiritual rebirth?​

This has been a problem for many "OSAS" proponents. The reality is that we still sin. Sometimes some try to assert "they are regenerated and sinless SPIRITUALLY, but still sin in their FLESH". A variant of "Antinomiamisn" --- against that, what we do in our flesh, determines our destiny.

"Born of the Spirit", means righteousness, now --- and by the Spirit INDWELLING us. "Born of God", meant righteousness, then --- but the Spirit did not indwell as He does now.

QUote:
You kind of dodged the question - before you said that being "born again" only happens under the new covenant. Now you say there was a "born from above position". What are you trying to say?​

In Rom4:3, "Abraham believed, AND it was credited to him as righteousness."

Salvation under the Old Covenant, was by faith --- and it was God's grace. He offered forgiveness for sins, but Law requiring a blood offering for sins allowed a substitute sacrifice. Jesus is now "fulfilled the Law", and He is our "blood offering". So it's still grace, it's still faith, and now we obey Law BECAUSE He is in us.

But the discussion is "God made us alive WITH CHRIST" --- so let's focus on that, rather than try to prove or disprove things with Old Testament. The New did not invalidate the Old, but fulfilled it. And there is nothing in the OT that disproves Jesus' doctrine of Grace, through Faith.

We were discussing "see" --- do you accept that Lk9:27 answers what you were proposing about Jn3:3?

 

[MamaZ]

and now we obey Law BECAUSE He is in us.

We have the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit and therefore when we love we keep all of the commandments. It is not a list of rules that are in our hearts by the Holy Spirit that is in us..

 

[Blood]

In essence, we abide in regeneration, as we abide in Christ.

What you say here is illogical. Regeneration is the active work of the holy ghost in us. We are not the holy ghost so how can we have anything to do with abiding in something that we were unable to do ourselves? which he had to do for us?

 

[beloved57]

Gods saints are preserved forever..

ps 37:

28For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

What you say here is illogical. Regeneration is the active work of the holy ghost in us. We are not the holy ghost so how can we have anything to do with abiding in something that we were unable to do ourselves? which he had to do for us?

Ben believes regeneration is synergistic, which is total nonsense. Regeneration, or to be "born again", literally means just that - to be reborn. It is a picture; just as you were born into sin (physically), you are then reborn (or regenerated) into life (spiritually). The problem with synergistic regenertation is that it entirely defies the idea portrayed in birth - just as physical birth is never caused by the one being born, so it is with the spiritual. God is the cause of your rebirth, He is the one who bears you. You cannot possibly bear yourself, can you?

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

While Nicodemus asks a question that shows he doesn't understand, he essentially asks the correct type of question, which is basically "how can I do this"?

The obvious answer is, "you can't". One cannot bear themselves. This is proven in physical birth, and thus it must be the same in spiritual birth. You cannot cause your own existence. And that is the exact opposite of what synergistic regeneration teaches, which is says that you have a cause in your rebirth, and that you work alongside the Spirit.

It is entirely illogical.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
We have the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit and therefore when we love we keep all of the commandments. It is not a list of rules that are in our hearts by the Holy Spirit that is in us..​

I'm not sure what "abroad in our hearts" means, but we are in agreement; we follow Law because of Him-in-us; and, Jesus is the Law. He came not to destroy Law, but to fulfill it.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Beloved57:
Gods saints are preserved forever..

ps 37:

28For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
​

What if "HIS SAINTS", conveys "believers"? And, what if "belief" can become deceived to "unbelief"? It's what Heb3:6-14 says. And James1:12-14. And Col2:6-8 says. And 2Pet3:17 says. And many more.

While you're quoting the Old Testament, here is a passage on which I really desire to hear your thoughts; betting you won't be able to answer it:

Eze 18:21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Eze 18:22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.

Eze 18:23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live.

Eze 18:24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

Holding my breath until you respond. (Or until I turn blue, whichever comes first.)

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Jesusfreak5000:
Ben believes regeneration is synergistic, which is total nonsense.​

Do not --- never said that. Regeneration is completely by the Holy Spirit; men are incapable of righteousness.

...but, regeneration is by the RECEIVED Spirit. The word "poured" cannot mean anything else in Titus 3:5-6. Regeneration is by the Spirit who WAS POURED on us through Jesus OUR SAVIOR. Sequence is clear:

1. Jesus-our-Savior
2. Poured Spirit ("Poured", ekcheo, is "gifted/fell-upon/RECEIVED" and is AFTER belief -- Acts10:43-47 & 11:17; it is "sealed AFTER belief" Eph1:13
3. Then (and only then) regeneration...

Quote:
Regeneration, or to be "born again", literally means just that - to be reborn.​

100% right; but it is through faith. Not "before"...

Quote:
It is a picture; just as you were born into sin (physically), you are then reborn (or regenerated) into life (spiritually). The problem with synergistic regeneration is that it entirely defies the idea portrayed in birth - just as physical birth is never caused by the one being born, so it is with the spiritual. God is the cause of your rebirth, He is the one who bears you. You cannot possibly bear yourself, can you?​

Let's agree that "regeneration", is aligned with "begotten"; and per John1:13 it is all of God and NOTHING of men.

Agree so far?

Now --- what does verse 12 say? Becoming begotten, is by believing and receiving Jesus.

Quote:
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

While Nicodemus asks a question that shows he doesn't understand, he essentially asks the correct type of question, which is basically "how can I do this"?

The obvious answer is, "you can't". One cannot bear themselves. This is proven in physical birth, and thus it must be the same in spiritual birth. You cannot cause your own existence. And that is the exact opposite of what synergistic regeneration teaches, which is says that you have a cause in your rebirth, and that you work alongside the Spirit.​

In the copy of the Bible that's just there to your right, what do 1Tim4:16 and 1Pet1:9 say?

Do they say things like "save yourselves", and "by YOUR FAITH receive salvation"?

Quote:
It is entirely illogical.
​

It is "completely logical, Captain. Illogic is a Human emotion."

 

[A Brother In Christ]

benism ,, alive and death following

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Blood:
What you say here is illogical. Regeneration is the active work of the holy ghost in us. We are not the holy ghost so how can we have anything to do with abiding in something that we were unable to do ourselves? which he had to do for us?​

Hi, "Blood". Regeneration is the work of the Holy Ghost in us. But what does "in us", mean? Does the Spirit indwell an UNBELIEVER? Never.

He is IN us, because of faith.

As far as "God doing what we were unable", please read Rom8:3-13, especially 12-13. Can anyone deny a choice, to walk EITHER after the flesh (if we do, we must die) --- or by the Spirit put to death the flesh and live?

 

[beloved57]

Quoted by Beloved57:
Gods saints are preserved forever..

ps 37:

28For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
​

What if "HIS SAINTS", conveys "believers"? And, what if "belief" can become deceived to "unbelief"? It's what Heb3:6-14 says. And James1:12-14. And Col2:6-8 says. And 2Pet3:17 says. And many more.

While you're quoting the Old Testament, here is a passage on which I really desire to hear your thoughts; betting you won't be able to answer it:

Eze 18:21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Eze 18:22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.

Eze 18:23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live.

Eze 18:24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

Holding my breath until you respond. (Or until I turn blue, whichever comes first.)

ps 37:
28For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off

A siant and believer are the same..2 thess 1:

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day

eph 1:

15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

 

[Ben johnson]

"Beloved57", what do you think of the passage I quoted from Ezekiel? How do you understand it?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Quoted by Blood:
What you say here is illogical. Regeneration is the active work of the holy ghost in us. We are not the holy ghost so how can we have anything to do with abiding in something that we were unable to do ourselves? which he had to do for us?
​

Hi, "Blood". Regeneration is the work of the Holy Ghost in us. But what does "in us", mean? Does the Spirit indwell an UNBELIEVER? Never.[/QUOTE]
1 cor 6:9-20 has believers who are sleeping with prositutes in the flesh thus joining with them ... Paul is reminding them that they are not living Christ like .. 1 cor 6:19-20

romans 13:10-14 saved but living in sin ... wakes from sleep from dead ones.. vs 11
[QUOTE]

He is IN us, because of faith.

As far as "God doing what we were unable", please read Rom8:3-13, especially 12-13. Can anyone deny a choice, to walk EITHER after the flesh (if we do, we must die) --- or by the Spirit put to death the flesh and live?

Present tense salvation is different than intial salvation

 

[frumanchu]

Do not --- never said that. Regeneration is completely by the Holy Spirit; men are incapable of righteousness.

You don't have to say it for it to be true. Synergistic literally means working together. If regeneration CANNOT occur apart from prior action on our part, then it is by definition synergistic.

...but, regeneration is by the RECEIVED Spirit. The word "poured" cannot mean anything else in Titus 3:5-6. Regeneration is by the Spirit who WAS POURED on us through Jesus OUR SAVIOR. Sequence is clear:

1. Jesus-our-Savior
2. Poured Spirit ("Poured", ekcheo, is "gifted/fell-upon/RECEIVED" and is AFTER belief -- Acts10:43-47 & 11:17; it is "sealed AFTER belief" Eph1:13
3. Then (and only then) regeneration...

Your interpretation quite simply excludes the salvation of all the OT saints, for the Spirit was not "poured out" upon believers until Pentecost (Acts 2).

If regeneration is only possible by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then nobody prior to Pentecost was saved. Period. [post=47800493]That is the only logical conclusion of your position[/post].

Now --- what does verse 12 say? Becoming begotten, is by believing and receiving Jesus.

12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

NO. That's not what it says, Ben. The plain reading is that it gives two statements which establish no logical order (ie, no cause and effect). These are the two statements:

1. All who received him...[were given] the right to become children of God
2. All who received him...were born of God.

The word you MUST HAVE to make your argument is the word "then," and it does not appear in this verse. You are making the argument as though the mere fact that one statement follows the other in the sentence structure that it therefore means the first statement is the cause and the second is the effect. That is an immense linguistic and logical error.

In the copy of the Bible that's just there to your right, what do 1Tim4:16 and 1Pet1:9 say?

Do they say things like "save yourselves", and "by YOUR FAITH receive salvation"?

You cannot in the same post say that it is not synergistic and then quote verses that (according to your interpretation) cannot possibly be understood otherwise.

It is "completely logical, Captain. Illogic is a Human emotion."

Ben, logic is not an emotion. In fact, emotion is overwhelmingly the number one obstruction to logic. Emotion is what leads men to embrace the illogical. This year's presidential election is a pointed example of just that.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Quoted by Beloved57:
Gods saints are preserved forever..

ps 37:

28For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
​

What if "HIS SAINTS", conveys "believers"? And, what if "belief" can become deceived to "unbelief"? It's what Heb3:6-14 says. And James1:12-14. And Col2:6-8 says. And 2Pet3:17 says. And many more.

Completely theoretical in order to support your view, Ben. A saint must be someone who is saved. One cannot be a saint and not be saved. That violates the definition of the term in every sense.

One who simply professes (such as the demons) are not saints, because they are not saved. That simple.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

You cannot in the same post say that it is not synergistic and then quote verses that (according to your interpretation) cannot possibly be understood otherwise.

Well get used to it because that's what he's been doing for quite some time...

 

[frumanchu]

Completely theoretical in order to support your view, Ben. A saint must be someone who is saved. One cannot be a saint and not be saved. That violates the definition of the term in every sense.

One who simply professes (such as the demons) are not saints, because they are not saved. That simple.

Precisely. The concept missing here is that of covenant. One can be a Christian covenantally without being one soteriologically in the same way that Israelites could be so covenantally without being so soteriologically (Rom 9:6). Such concept is foundational to the book of Hebrews in particular.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by ABIC:
Present tense salvation is different than intial salvation
​

No it's not --- "saved", is "saved". It is belonging to God, through Christ.

It is "indwelt fellowship of love".
It is "walking in Christ, rather than in sin".
It is "a new creation".
It is "indwelt with and lead by the Holy Spirit".

It is persecution, affliction, temptation and trial; but it is already triumphant over that, because He is already triumphant.

"In this world you will have tribulation; but take courage, for I have overcome the world." Jn16:33

The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith, to ENDING faith; the just shall live BY faith. (Rm1:17!)

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Quoted by ABIC:
Present tense salvation is different than intial salvation
​

No it's not --- "saved", is "saved". It is belonging to God, through Christ.

It is "indwelt fellowship of love".
It is "walking in Christ, rather than in sin".
It is "a new creation".
It is "indwelt with and lead by the Holy Spirit".

It is persecution, affliction, temptation and trial; but it is already triumphant over that, because He is already triumphant.

"In this world you will have tribulation; but take courage, for I have overcome the world." Jn16:33

The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith, to ENDING faith; the just shall live BY faith. (Rm1:17!)

then why Gal 5:25 Since you are in the spirit ... walk in the spirit why did they need to be told?

why is there 1 jn 3:2-3 stating that we are not perfect yet... we can sin

faith is having a hope in a promise from God... heb 11:1 but abraham after he believed gen 15:6 doubted God in gen 15:8 ... yet God still kept his promise

Adam and eve sinned ... they ran away from God YET God made clothing and brought them to Adam and eve

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Jesusfreak5000:
Completely theoretical in order to support your view, Ben. A saint must be someone who is saved. One cannot be a saint and not be saved. That violates the definition of the term in every sense.​

You missed my point; a "saint", is a "believer" --- but what is a "saint" who comes to "unbelief"?

He ain't a saint no more...

Quote
One who simply professes (such as the demons) are not saints, because they are not saved. That simple.​

True (see James2:19).

But what of BELIEVERS who cease to believe? The man in 2Pet1:9 --- was once "purified" --- could he NOT have been saved? Impossible.

The man in Heb10:29 was "once sanctified, by Jesus' BLOOD" --- he too must have been saved; couldn't have been else.

Both of these guys are held out as the "bad example"; conveying, "Don't BE like him (them)"...

Quote:
Well get used to it because that's what he's been doing for quite some time...​

You missed another point.

Regeneration is not "synergistic"; it's all of God, and nothing of us.

SALVATION is "synergistic" --- it's God's grace, and our faith.

By faith, we receive His salvation, and we receive regeneration.

It is as John said in 1:12-13 --- the begottenness is nothing of men but all of God, but becoming begotten is by believing/receiving Jesus.

There is no way that you or I or anyone else, could read 2Tim1:12-14, and misunderstand:

God guard what we entrust to Him.
And WE guard (by the SPIRIT) what He entrusts to us.

The meaning is clear; we guard eternal life.

Nor is it deniable what Peter's saying in 2:1:5-10; the same thing --- GUARD yourselves. Specifically, "Against the man who WAS once purified, be all the more diligent to make sure of your calling and election; as long as godly fruits are yours, ...the gates of Heaven will BE ...provided to you."

Peter could not have been clearer. Paul agrees, so does James, John, and all the others...

With respect, by this time what people here should be "used to" in my posting, is comprehensive supporting of every point with precise Scriptures. And harmonizing those Scriptures, with the whole.

I love talking about how Jesus said "you can BELIEVE in Me just by looking at what I've DONE". That absolutely connects to His words to Thomas: "Blessed are those who have NOT seen, and yet believe".

And it's perfectly aligned with what Jesus said to Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum --- He rebuked them for having SEEN His miracles, but REFUSING to believe.

Jn10:38
Jn20:29
Matt11:21-24