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Quoted by MamaZ:Where in Scripture is the idea that any person is not offered mercy? In Rom11:32, "God has mercy on ALL MEN". In Jn12:32, Jesus "draws (helkuo-DRAGS) all men to Himself." In Acts17:30, God commands all men to repent. In the parable of Matt22:2-14 --- ALL were invited, but they were not chosen who REFUSED the invitation (one for farming, another for business), and he who refused to put on clean clothes. The KING decided NOTHING of who would be chosen, and who would not.
God Poured out mercy to those whom called upon Him by looking forward to the cross.
"MANY (all) are called, but FEW (those who receive) are chosen."QUote:
He now gives mercy to those whom call upon Him by looking back at the cross. This is why we see Christ being spoken of to the sperpent. That is why we are to preach Christ and Him crucified..He gives mercy to ALL.
There is not one soul ever created, who cannot choose to live forever. Atonement is "unlimited".
"He is the propitiation of our sins; and not just ours, but also the WHOLE WORLD." 1Jn2:2
No way can "holos kosmos" not mean "every man"...
"I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies (says the Lord God); so repent and live." Ezk18:32
That's God's attitude towards us; Jesus repeated it in places like Mk1:15: "The kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the Gospel."
Quoted by MamaZ:Where in Scripture is the idea that any person is not offered mercy? In Rom11:32, "God has mercy on ALL MEN". In Jn12:32, Jesus "draws (helkuo-DRAGS) all men to Himself." In Acts17:30, God commands all men to repent. In the parable of Matt22:2-14 --- ALL were invited, but they were not chosen who REFUSED the invitation (one for farming, another for business), and he who refused to put on clean clothes. The KING decided NOTHING of who would be chosen, and who would not.
God Poured out mercy to those whom called upon Him by looking forward to the cross.
"MANY (all) are called, but FEW (those who receive) are chosen."QUote:
He now gives mercy to those whom call upon Him by looking back at the cross. This is why we see Christ being spoken of to the sperpent. That is why we are to preach Christ and Him crucified..He gives mercy to ALL.
There is not one soul ever created, who cannot choose to live forever. Atonement is "unlimited".
"He is the propitiation of our sins; and not just ours, but also the WHOLE WORLD." 1Jn2:2
No way can "holos kosmos" not mean "every man"...
"I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies (says the Lord God); so repent and live." Ezk18:32
That's God's attitude towards us; Jesus repeated it in places like Mk1:15: "The kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the Gospel."
Quoted by MamaZ:Where in Scripture is the idea that any person is not offered mercy? In Rom11:32, "God has mercy on ALL MEN". In Jn12:32, Jesus "draws (helkuo-DRAGS) all men to Himself." In Acts17:30, God commands all men to repent. In the parable of Matt22:2-14 --- ALL were invited, but they were not chosen who REFUSED the invitation (one for farming, another for business), and he who refused to put on clean clothes. The KING decided NOTHING of who would be chosen, and who would not.
God Poured out mercy to those whom called upon Him by looking forward to the cross.
"MANY (all) are called, but FEW (those who receive) are chosen."QUote:
He now gives mercy to those whom call upon Him by looking back at the cross. This is why we see Christ being spoken of to the sperpent. That is why we are to preach Christ and Him crucified..He gives mercy to ALL.
There is not one soul ever created, who cannot choose to live forever. Atonement is "unlimited".
"He is the propitiation of our sins; and not just ours, but also the WHOLE WORLD." 1Jn2:2
No way can "holos kosmos" not mean "every man"...
"I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies (says the Lord God); so repent and live." Ezk18:32
That's God's attitude towards us; Jesus repeated it in places like Mk1:15: "The kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the Gospel."
QUoted by MamaZ:Hi, "MamaZ".
you preach a different gospel. for you believe that it is your faith that saves you and your faith that justifies you but yet cannot answer What Part God did for your faith or justification..
May I?
Peter says "receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls."
Jesus said, "By your endurance gain your souls."
Paul said "Persevere in your teachings; as you DO you will save yourselves..."
1Pet1:9, Lk21:19, 1Tim4:16
Will you consider that "justification CAME to all men", in exactly the same measure ("so then / even so") as condemnation came to all men? (Rom5:18)
Will you also consider that "justifcation must be received"?
"...much more those who receive the abundance of grace and (who receive) the gift of righteousness shall reign in life thorugh the One, Jesus (shall be justified)." Rom5:17
He did die for the sins of every man. But not every man will believe and be saved.
Regeneration preceeds faith.
Can a dead man revive himself?
If Justification came to all men then all men would be saved, Daaaaaaaaaaaaa
Quoted by Yashualover:And I perceive Jn10:9 to say "all who enter, become His sheep".
Jesus said "I came to give my life for the sheep"
There are those who are not His sheep and He did not come for them.
But please show me anywhere in Scripture where Jesus did not come for any man.
Quote:Right.
God hates the sin but loves the sinner (where is that in the bible?), so does the sinner's sin get cast into hell or the sinner. God is angry with the sinner every day!
Quote:WHY does God's wrath rest on him? In 1Jn5:10, men perish BECAUSE they have not believed. In Rom2:6-8, God's wrath is BECAUSE they sought selfish things rather than God and immortality.
John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.
Quote:Please show me anywhere in Scripture, where anyone is not sincerely invited to salvation. The best place is probably Matt22:2-14; who was not truly invited? "Many called".
YHWH's Sovereign general grace is upon those who are not His sheep (ie sends rain upon the just and the unjust) There lives are hanging by a thread over the fires of hell. The only thing that keeps them from immediatly falling into hell is God's hand of restraint, there is a time for everything.
Who was not chosen? Three --- one who CHOSE business, one who CHOSE farming, and one who CHOSE filthy clothes. Where did the KING decide?
Quote:Is it? Then who does the word "OURS", reflect? Do you see three groups there?
1Jn 2:2 It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world's.
To say that the word world means every human from Adam to the end is foolinshness.
1. Ours-saved.
2. Whole-world-FEW-ELECT.
3. Rest of the world UNELECT.
I don't see the second group, "Yashualover". "Holos Kosmos" conveys the entire world.
Quote:That's true --- IF salvation is sovereignly accomplished. What if men choose?
In the contex the world of believers defines the word world. If Jesus Christ died for the sins of every human all humans would enjoy the new heavens and earth for eternity, we know this can not be true since the word tells us many will be thrown into hell.
Quote:Nawww, you missed the point.
Just because YHWH takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked does not mean they will not be cast into hell to be tormented for all eternity
"So REPENT and LIVE!"
Repenting is a CHOICE that He GIVES. In no way can this statement co-exist with "God grants repentance to only a FEW that He PREDESTINES".
"God is the Savior of ALL MEN, malista/chiefly/above-all believers."
"All" is the provision, "belief" is the fulfillment.
...and it's not something God decides...
NO man can believe lest God opens the eyes of those to understand who Jesus truly is or what it is that Jesus truly has done. Even Peter who had walked with Him for quite some time didn't not know on HIS own who Christ is.. Even after they had been with Him they still did not understand the death of Christ. They went back to being fishermen after His death. So now if it is mans will they surely would have been the men that willed themselves. Don't you think?Now you are thinking. . . . . with the operative words being, "man will" as in "man wills it/himself" to believe.
Quoted by Jesusfreak5000:Hi, "JF". I do tend towards "dogmatic". Lending credibility towards "non-sovereign-gifted-understanding", I'll propose verses 9-10:
Ben -
I see this discussion on John 3 as not going anywhere if we keep repeating the same things as we have been saying. So far, all we have determined is that it could actually be interpretted either way, and neither of us can be dogmatic on our interpretation.
Jn3:9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"If sovereign divine instilled perception is required before one can understand, then how is it that Jesus is incredulous that "Nick" does NOT understand?
Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?
The only way that, "How can you, a teacher, NOT understand?" --- makes sense, is if that understanding was EXPECTED. Making it "non-gifted by God".
Quote:Oh dear; hope I didn't jump the gun. Then again, I would relish hearing your comments on verses 9-10. The fact that Jesus expected Nick TO understand, seems to conflict with "sovereign-gifted-understanding" (to the few-elect) to me...
So I am going to take some time before I repost (say, a day, or maybe longer), and get as much information as I can and then try to provide some more information for you as to why I believe I am correct.
Quote:Which "decree"?
As far as the decree is concerned, I am not interested in discussing it right now. Let's just stick to one topic and stay focused on John 3. Once this is settled or we exhaust the topic, then we can discuss the decree.
Quote:Agreement on discussing "see/perceive/behold"? That's great.
Are we in agreement?
Quote:I would be curious what others have been saying about me.
By the way, I don't care what everyone else says about you...
I always strive very hard to discuss with love, respect, and honor.Quote:It's much more than SHOWING you respect. I DO respect you. I'm well aware that Calvinists read and study Scripture, and find support for their positions. The fun for me, is in seeing through YOUR eyes, and I pray it is equally enjoyable for others to see through MY eyes. What if one of us connects Scripture in a way that makes sense, that the other has not considered before? That's the goal. Sharpening each other, maturing each other in Christ, and above all displaying the reality of Christ in our hearts to the world, through the love and fellowship we have between us.
you have shown me respect, and therefore, I will continually discuss opinions with you and keep an open mind about what you say.
Quote:I'm always painfully conscious of "invested emotion". A person here with much time invested in one position, might be well, embarassed at discovering verses that conflict that position. I've certainly been accused (often) of "stubbornly refusing correction because of emotional commitment to a refuted position". One or two have flat said, "Ben, you never admit you're wrong". That's when I invite a discussion of those "refutations". If I can be SHOWN wrong on certain Scriptures, with clear theological foundation, that would be grand.
It seems to me that some people get upset at you simply because you have an argument that they can't refute, and so they make it personal. The only reason why one would do this is to be selfish and take pride in their own belief, not to truly pursue the truth of the Scriptures.
I came up with "The Five Ways" to show how just making a statment (which I call "throwing-a-Five-Way") and calling something "refuted", doesn't fly. Three examples (for illustration, not for argument):
A "refutation" is either established and not contradictable, or it's not a "refutation".
In James5:19-20, "Throwing-a-Five-Way" is to state "those who fell away were never REALLY saved, but were LURKING amongst the saved; thus James said 'those who are led back to where they never really WERE, will be saved, for the FIRST time'." This is not refutation; it does not explain what James said. "BACK" conveys "were-there-before".
In 1Cor2:14, the "THINGS" are the same "things" as in verse 12; because those "THINGS" are revealed by the received Spirit, Paul cannot be including "saving-belief-in-Jesus". One must believe in Jesus and then receive the Spirit, so that THEN the "spiritual things" in 12 and 14 are revealed. This is refutation.
In 2Cor4:3-4 it's thought that "the god of this world has blinded (veiled) them so they cannot believe in Jesus". But verse 3:16 says "WHEN a man TURNS to the Lord, the veil over his eyes is removed." Flat placing "turn-to-Lord", before "remove-veil". This is also refutation.
Quote:An excellent and honorable attitude. However, if you DO "make it personal" towards me, I will expect the kindness and consideration you have shown.
So don't expect me to make anything personal, I just want a friendly, intellectual and scholarly discussion.
...and if I do "make it personal towards you", then expect the same kindness and consideration I have shown.
Another name for "respect", is "love". It is our essence.
Regeneration preceeds faith.
Can a dead man revive himself?
If Justification came to all men then all men would be saved, Daaaaaaaaaaaaa
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