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Yes, I need scripture, because I don't know where you are getting the idea from a biblical standpoint that God's ultimate purpose in creation is that we reign with Christ. John 17 doesn't state anything having to do with God's ultimate purpose. I am not debating that this is a purpose of God, that we reign with Christ. But how was that the purpose in which God, in eternity past, willed that we come into existence? How does the idea that we reign with Christ exist as the sole purpose for God's creation, within the mind of God, the core of His being?
What do believe being in union with Him means? What does being in union with God bring with it?
What do believe being in union with Him means? What does being in union with God bring with it?
I am not sure... I have often wondered what is all entailed by the idea that we be one as the father and son are.
But if that is His ultimate purpose, then all of His actions must stem from that and be accordance with it. If that is the case, then how can some be sent to hell? How can God raise up Pharoah for the sole purpose of displaying His power?
I am not sure... I have often wondered what is all entailed by the idea that we be one as the father and son are.
But if that is His ultimate purpose, then all of His actions must stem from that and be accordance with it.
They are and they do.
If that is the case, then how can some be sent to hell?
If that is the case, then how can some be sent to hell?
Unbelief.
How can God raise up Pharoah for the sole purpose of displaying His power?
Pharoah's unbelief.
Throne-ship is what creation is all about. Settle on that before asking your other questions. Until you do, you will never run out of questions.
Jesus was the 'first of first fruits'. Because of His obedience there is now a Human in the Godhead, more are to follow.
Unbelief.
Pharoah's unbelief.
Throne-ship is what creation is all about. Settle on that before asking your other questions. Until you do, you will never run out of questions.
Jesus was the 'first of first fruits'. Because of His obedience there is now a Human in the Godhead, more are to follow.
Okay, so if God's ultimate purpose is that we (humanity) reign with Christ, and not all do actually reign with Christ, then God's purpose is not fullly fulfilled, is it?
Is this the time when we go stupid?
God's ultimate purpose is contingient upon man knowing about and desiring it. Adam was given a glimpse but chose his own way.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
The purpose of His raising up pharoah was NOT because of his unbelief as you say. It was "TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH".
How can that reconcile with your belief?
God raised up an unbeblieving, incorrigible, Pharaoh to accomplish what He wanted.
Hmm. So you think we will become Gods? If that is the case, then we will become equals with Christ, correct? Are you saying we will become deity?
I guess here is where we conveniently go brain dead.
Read my post again.
End of discussion unless you have a question I haven't already answered.
Is this the time when we go stupid?
God's ultimate purpose is contingient upon man knowing about and desiring it. Adam was given a glimpse but chose his own way.
God raised up an unbeblieving, incorrigible, Pharaoh to accomplish what He wanted.
Listen, just because I disagree, and IMO for a good reason, doesn't mean I am stupid. I would never call anyone stupid for simply disagreeing.
Listen, I didn't call you stupid, further fortifying my opinion that you have a problem in reading comprehension.
#2. You haven't said you disagree for any good reason but have indicated you are on fishing expedition. Don't you believe I can see though all that from you. You aren't looking for answers but words that might trip me up.
Here's where you have contradictions. If God's ultimate purpose is contigent upon man desiring it, then it no longer remains His ultimate purpose, simple as that.
No contradiction. You just can't accept the idea that man has a freewill and God's purpose for man is contingient upon man submitting it to Him.
His ultimate purpose is now to adhere to man's desires.
That is your twist on it based upon your mis-representation of my words. No where in my remarks have I declared God has to adhere to man's desires. God has His own timetable for summing up all things in Christ. If man is on board, man will be included. Obviously [to me anyway] all men won't be on board simply because of their own volition they will not bend their knee to God.
Once man does not desire God's purpose, God now institutes another purpose, and now the original purpose can no longer be ultimate or governing. God's ultimate purpose MUST influence all of His actions, otherwise it ceases to be His purpose in all things, and is no longer God's reason for acting the way he does.
Too much convolution for this person to sort out.
According to you, what He originally wanted was for Pharoah to reign with Christ. So what God wanted technically wasn't in accord with that. God wanted to demonstrate His power in Pharoah according to the text, not raise him up with Christ. I understand that you are saying God originally wanted pharoah to reign with Christ, but that once He was in a state of unbelief, God only then used Him in such a manner. Problem is, His secondary purpose of demonstrating His power isn't in accord with His primary purpose, is it? Further, how could God be sure Pharoah was not going to repent further on in his lifetime?
"I guess here is where we conveniently go brain dead."
You have been disenginuous.
Listen, I didn't call you stupid, further fortifying my opinion that you have a problem in reading comprehension.
#2. You haven't said you disagree for any good reason but have indicated you are on fishing expedition. Don't you believe I can see though all that from you. You aren't looking for answers but words that might trip me up.
No contradiction. You just can't accept the idea that man has a freewill and God's purpose for man is contingient upon man submitting it to Him.
That is your twist on it based upon your mis-representation of my words. No where in my remarks have I declared God has to adhere to man's desires.
God's ultimate purpose is contingient upon man knowing about and desiring it
God has His own timetable for summing up all things in Christ. If man is on board, man will be included.
Obviously [to me anyway] all men won't be on board simply because of their own volition they will not bend their knee to God.
You are too quick for the kill. I even included myself by inserting the word, we. Again, it is, I believe a reading for comprehension problem.
Sure, but with you people one always outweighs the other. That has been my experience. With a hope for genuineness from you because you asked, I took a chance and wrote what I did all that out clearly. I should know better.Originally Posted by Ormly
#2. You haven't said you disagree for any good reason but have indicated you are on fishing expedition. Don't you believe I can see though all that from you. You aren't looking for answers but words that might trip me up.
Did it ever occur to you that I ALWAYS look for both?
I am very critical for a reason; if I can logically break it down and make it contradict itself, then I can be sure it is not true. If I cannot, then it may be true, and I may adopt it as my own. Thus, all things spoken must be broken down and analyzed and critiqued. So you're wrong that I'm looking not for answers, but I would agree that I am looking for things that trip you up. If I didn't, then I would just be accepting all that you say!
You say it doesnt and yet it is part of the elementary teaching of Jesus. Go figger. Not to believe it is to mis-represent what He has taught. I say mis-represent because that is what it winds up being in order for you to support the sum total of your doctrine. The sad part is when you don't recognize your contradictions after the first lap around the circle.Originally Posted by Ormly
No contradiction. You just can't accept the idea that man has a freewill and God's purpose for man is contingient upon man submitting it to Him.
I can't accept it because Scripture teaches the opposite.
Aside from being irrelevant, that is a twist on Pauls words, again to support your doctrine.Rom 9:11 ... so that God's purpose according to {His} choice (not ours) would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls...
It is contingient upon our desire AFTER we know about. The gate is narrow and few go therein. God's purpose is an absolute. Man's freewill submitted to God is the ticket whereby, in the process of submitting, is God's will and purpose for man made complete.. It is man's choice in the matter after he is born again. Let he who builds his house, count the cost.You're saying the exact opposite, that God's purpose is contigent upon our choices.
I'm sorry, but until you expound, I will have to disagree. Simply saying "No contradiction" doesn't help at all, it's just a restating of your illogical position.
Originally Posted by Ormly
That is your twist on it based upon your mis-representation of my words. No where in my remarks have I declared God has to adhere to man's desires.
last post-
Originally Posted by Ormly
God's ultimate purpose is contingient upon man knowing about and desiring it
A twist to make it say something else.Thus, if God's purpose is contingent upon man desiring it, then God's purpose only becomes His purpose when man desires it.
This means God's purpose is always in accordance with whether man desires it or not. Your belief taken fruition is exactly that: "God has to adhere to man's desires."
Originally Posted by Ormly
God has His own timetable for summing up all things in Christ. If man is on board, man will be included.
Obviously [to me anyway] all men won't be on board simply because of their own volition they will not bend their knee to God.
So tell me... if it is obvious that some men won't be on board, how was God sure in eternity past that some would,
if He didn't predestine it to be so?
I don't believe you can answer that question without questioning the omniscience of God as well.
Sure, but with you people one always outweighs the other. That has been my experience. With a hope for genuineness from you because you asked, I took a chance and wrote what I did all that out clearly. I should know better.
I have no problem with anyone doing that however, when you run out argument it goes circular, guaranteed.
That is not honest since it doesnt support sincerity. FWIW, I am very critical too and words mean something. I try to get it right when I read and when I write.[/FONT]
Sure, but with you people one always outweighs the other.
You say it doesnt and yet it is part of the elementary teaching of Jesus. Go figger. Not to believe it is to mis-represent what He has taught. I say mis-represent because that is what it winds up being in order for you to support the sum total of your doctrine. The sad part is when you don't recognize your contradictions after the first lap around the circle.
Aside from being irrelevant, that is a twist on Pauls words, again to support your doctrine.
It is contingient upon our desire AFTER we know about. The gate is narrow and few go therein. God's purpose is an absolute. Man's freewill submitted to God is the ticket whereby, in the process of submitting, is God's will and purpose for man made complete.. It is man's choice in the matter after he is born again. Let he who builds his house, count the cost.
It is contingient upon our desire AFTER we know about.
God's purpose is an absolute.
You call it illogical in ignorance.
Study for yourself. Ask intelligent questions after studying the scriptures to see I am not speaking of salvation, which is probably the only part of the gospel you have been exposed to. Thats too bad.
A twist to make it say something else.
Adding the word "adhere" only puts more twist on it. God has only to adhere to His Character. God's purpose is always in accordance with what He wants and He will have from men who "freely" love Him.
In this He only predestined His purpose.
Originally Posted by Ormly
Sure, but with you people one always outweighs the other. That has been my experience. With a hope for genuineness from you because you asked, I took a chance and wrote what I did all that out clearly. I should know better.Ouch. You complain about misrepresentation, and then say hypocritcal things like this.
Originally Posted by Ormly
I have no problem with anyone doing that however, when you run out argument it goes circular, guaranteed.I think that's just your perception, that one has run out of argument. Just because someone reposts something similar to what they have already said, and clarifies even further in response to an argument doesn't mean they have run out of argument; rather, they think you don't see what they see, and they obviously think it is an effective enough argument to post it again. They think that they can expound further and further so you understand. That's not circular arguing. Circular arguing never occurs because of the arguments themselves, but only because those holding the arguments aren't willing to honestly evaluate the other's point. So, if I honestly evaluate your point, and even restate something I've already said, it doesn't mean it is circular arguing, it just means maybe you should look further into what I say, and not assume you know everything about everyone and everything about every argument as to not even waste your time with it. Believe it or not, that is the vibe that you give off, that your view is absolutely correct and no other argument even deserves another thought in your mind because you know them all exhaustively. This is because you even refuse to discuss another's argument. Discussion shows that you even care enough to ponder the argument, but flat out dismissing the whole idea shows you don't care at all, and also have no respect for the position.
JesusFreak wrote:
I dismiss yours for only one reason, disingenuine circularism and not for any truth or error that might be contained in your post.
I refuse to chase your rabbits.
You're kidding me! Where am I using "disingenuine circularism"???
Thanks but, no thanks.
Both is true Ben.... what happens if God does not get Satan out of the way... 2 cor 4:3-6 they do not believe
Without the Father seed which marks the elect ... 1 jn 3:9, eph 1:4 for the Holy Spirit His part
Without the Holy Spirit ... Conviencing work ...john 16:7-11
without the Holy Spirit Telling Satan to get out of the way...
thus making John 6:65 ... so true...
Very true ... thus we do sin even after believeing ... 1jn 1:8-10 ... 2 cor 3:18 [/color]
Yet in 1 cor 1:2 states that they have been set apart in Christ... making them believers who are carnal 1 cor 3:1-3
how were they carnal they were looking at people how they were on this earth... instead of how God sees them in Christ : perfect ...
by doing this they were being a respecter of certain men ... thus choosing not to love the unacttractive believer according to this world .. 1cor 2:9, jn 13:34-35
Yet when any man believes ... they do not recieve what they deserve .... romans 4:2-5
Quoted by MamaZ:
Well Christians are not the citizens of earth. For our citizenship is in heaven. So to see the Kingdom of Heaven is to be born of the Spirit of God for then through our spiritual eyes we can see the Kingdom of Heaven but a natural man cannot.Hi, "MamaZ". Does John3:3 convey "perceive", or "physically behold"? Is there any place in Scripture that indicates natural (unregenerated men) cannot believe savingly in Jesus?
Since the Holy Spirit is given and one of things He does is to convict the world of sin, it can't be concluded to mean simply the elect therefore,
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