Poll for Christians on Muslims

[Deuteronomy13]

My thing is its not fully fulfilled yet until after the end times. So the old testimant is still in practice.

 

[ViaCrucis]

My thing is its not fully fulfilled yet until after the end times. So the old testimant is still in practice.

Perhaps you've heard of this Jesus person. He had a few things to say to those who would follow Him.

It didn't involve killing anyone.

It did, however, involve loving and forgiving e v e r y o n e.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[schpoogie]

exactly, Jesus never killed anyone, he was very loving and forgiving.
This is how we ought to live
-Love our enemies
-Do good to those who curse us
-Lend without expecting anything in return
-If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn the other also
-Give to anyone who asks
-Be merciful as God is merciful
All these were just fro Luke 6:27...

This is how Jesus wants us to live Deuteronomy13
If you think we still need to obey the OT laws then, i have to ask you again, Do you observe the Sabbath?
You can't even walk more than 3/4 of a mile on a sabbath day, not allowed to gather firewood...etc
If you don't think that Jesus fulfilled the OT law then you ought to be observing the sabbath.

 

[talitha]

I'm totally with brightmorningstar (not to mention his Namesake ) - Love Muslims, hate Islam.

 

[PaladinValer]

Hating evil only increases it. It is the exact opposite of Christian orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

Love is given irrespectively, or at least it must be given so, or else it isn't love. Unless you (speaking to the 3rd person, not to anyone specifically here) yourself are willing to love all like God did for all with the Incarnation, then you've missed the mark terribly.

I understand Islam well enough not to pidgeonhole it. If I did otherwise, then I'd be a terrible hypocrite.

 

[Deuteronomy13]

exactly, Jesus never killed anyone, he was very loving and forgiving.
This is how we ought to live
-Love our enemies
-Do good to those who curse us
-Lend without expecting anything in return
-If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn the other also
-Give to anyone who asks
-Be merciful as God is merciful
All these were just fro Luke 6:27...

This is how Jesus wants us to live Deuteronomy13
If you think we still need to obey the OT laws then, i have to ask you again, Do you observe the Sabbath?
You can't even walk more than 3/4 of a mile on a sabbath day, not allowed to gather firewood...etc
If you don't think that Jesus fulfilled the OT law then you ought to be observing the sabbath.

Thats a good point about the sabbath. But what about this?

Matthew 5:18-19

English Standard Version (ESV)

18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Deuteronomy13]

If we dont keep the old testament law then why keep the 10 commandments?

 

[schpoogie]

I already explained that verse

18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

The very verse before this Jesus said that he was going to fulfill the law. This verse is saying how the law will never pass away and must be accomplished. Man is not able to, only Jesus.

19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This verse shows that every single law is important and must be fulfilled, even the least of all the commandments.
I'm no bible scholar but i think this verse was directed at the pharasees who categorised the mosaic law into greater and lesser categories. And they taught people to not worry too much about the lesser laws. But Jesus is saying that you must fulfill ALL of the law.

If we dont keep the old testament law then why keep the 10 commandments?

I don't think we keep the 10 commandments in the same way as the Israelites did, because observing the sabbath is the 4th commandment.
We do as Jesus told us to do, Love God and Love our neighbours because this sums up the law and the prophets.
The ten commandments have good morals like, worship God and reject idols, do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal etc etc
These were things that Jesus also stood for.
But the fact is, man is incapable of achieving these because if you break one law you are considered a lawbreaker.

So in christianity, the ten commandments serve more as a reminder that we cannot obtain God's standards. we are helpless without Jesus.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If we dont keep the old testament law then why keep the 10 commandments?

As a decent condensation of moral principles.

However the Decalogue can be virtually summed up in the Great Commandment which the Lord Jesus Christ gave us explicitly.

Also, I've yet to meet a single Christian who claims to observe Torah actually observe Torah. I pray you don't wear any clothing of mixed fabrics, and that you follow kashrut to the letter, including not combining meat and dairy together in a meal. Do you wear tzitzit and tefillin? Could you describe your mezuzah for us? You make sure not to travel too far on the Shabbot I take it? Nor do you ever take a loan with interest? I pray that you don't shave the corners of your beard.

And that's only a very tiny sampling.

So, with all due respect, unless you're actually observing every jot and iota of Torah you have no business telling anyone else that we should be.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[talitha]

Hating evil only increases it.

I don't think that is scriptural.
"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil...." (Proverbs 8:13)
"You love justice and hate evil Therefore God your God has anointed you pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone." (Psalm 45:7)
"Hate evil, you who fear the Lord...." (Psalm 97:10)
"Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good...." (Romans 12:9)

It is the exact opposite of Christian orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

How could something that Scripture teaches be the opposite of Christian orthodoxy and orthopraxy? I hate anything that leads people astray from eternal life in Christ and the love of the Father.

Love is given irrespectively, or at least it must be given so, or else it isn't love. Unless you (speaking to the 3rd person, not to anyone specifically here) yourself are willing to love all like God did for all with the Incarnation, then you've missed the mark terribly.

I totally agree with this.

I understand Islam well enough not to pidgeonhole it. If I did otherwise, then I'd be a terrible hypocrite.

I understand Islam well enough to know that it is an insidious plan of the enemy that has lead many many people to eternal destruction.

blessings in Jesus' name
tal

 

[steve_bakr]

Hating evil only increases it. It is the exact opposite of Christian orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

Love is given irrespectively, or at least it must be given so, or else it isn't love. Unless you (speaking to the 3rd person, not to anyone specifically here) yourself are willing to love all like God did for all with the Incarnation, then you've missed the mark terribly.

I understand Islam well enough not to pidgeonhole it. If I did otherwise, then I'd be a terrible hypocrite.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[PaladinValer]

I don't think that is scriptural.
"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil...." (Proverbs 8:13)
"You love justice and hate evil Therefore God your God has anointed you pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone." (Psalm 45:7)
"Hate evil, you who fear the Lord...." (Psalm 97:10)
"Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good...." (Romans 12:9)

Hyperbole.

If God is Love, and hate is the absence of love, then God cannot hate.

Hate implies a certain malice in addition to extremely intensive dislike to the point of desiring the entire eradication of something.

The problem is, evil doesn't exist. Evil is the lack of good, not a substance in and of itself. You need to remember that Christianity absolutely rejects Dualism: evil isn't a power against good.

It is illogical to hate what doesn't exist. We are called to reject evil because it is a corruption and aberration of what is inherently good: all existence (according to Genesis 1, all things are inherently good).

Likewise, hate is the absence of love. Hate doesn't exist in and of itself.

How could something that Scripture teaches be the opposite of Christian orthodoxy and orthopraxy? I hate anything that leads people astray from eternal life in Christ and the love of the Father.

Hating hate only increases hate; it only further corrupts and ignores the inherent goodness of all things. Furthermore, given the above statements, it seems fundamentally impossible for God to hate anything.

God does wish to see the end of evil, but He is incapable of hatred. You need to remember that God is the Good. His creation is good, for nothing not good can come of Him, for that would betray His very Being. We must reject dualism if we wish to be orthodox. And to live a life that suggests that hatred is acceptable; ie, actually hating, is to live outside orthopraxy.

I totally agree with this.

Then you likewise cannot hate, for hatred is the absolute lack of agape.

I understand Islam well enough to know that it is an insidious plan of the enemy that has lead many many people to eternal destruction.

You give the Devil far too much credit...

Furthermore, Islam, if practiced correctly, wouldn't dare try to harm Christianity or Christians, considering us Peoples of the Book and our religion to also worship God (even if they reject our theology as "corrupted"; then again, we consider Islam to be a corruption of Christianity, and in fact, such as been the historic view of orthodox Christianity...many EOs consider it a heresy more than a different religion!).

Of course, Islam, like Christianity, has its share of those who pervert it for malign deeds and goals, but they do not represent it respectfully just like Christians who go around assassinating abortion doctors and picketing soldier's funerals are respecting Christianity.

I don't allow Muslims who go around blowing people and buildings up color what Islam authentically teaches. To do so would be illogical. Of course I disagree with Islam and consider it a false religion, but based on its teachings, it is a lot closer to Christianity than Judaism is in a lot of important respects. And when they defend views that even Jews won't even accept as true but Christians do, then I will acknowledge and celebrate those commonalities with the greatest of joy.

 

[good brother]

If God is Love, and hate is the absence of love, then God cannot hate.

...it seems fundamentally impossible for God to hate anything.

Psalm 11:5 The LORD examines the righteous,
but the wicked, those who love violence,
he hates with a passion.

Isiaih 61:8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery and wrongdoing.

Revelation 2:6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
​

God's word says there are certain things He hates.

Then you likewise cannot hate, for hatred is the absolute lack of agape.

It seems like a different thread topic, but if God can hate yet He is the source and originator of agape love, then your above statement is not true.

Furthermore, Islam, if practiced correctly, wouldn't dare try to harm Christianity or Christians...

From the Qu'ran:

The Immunity 9.30 And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
​

It looks as though the above (from the Qu'ran) is calling for the destruction of those who would follow Jesus.

No, Islam and Christianity are not just splinters, Islam is a false religion.

As to the OP: Gotta love the sinner, all while hating the sin. We would do a great and grave disservice to tell those who have been decieved that they are fine to stay on the path they are currently on. We also must remember that WE WERE ALL ENEMIES of God before we were reconciled to Him through the precious blood of Jesus.

In Christ, GB

 

[steve_bakr]

Psalm 11:5 The LORD examines the righteous,
but the wicked, those who love violence,
he hates with a passion.

Isiaih 61:8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery and wrongdoing.

Revelation 2:6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
God's word says there are certain things He hates.

It seems like a different thread topic, but if God can hate yet He is the source and originator of agape love, then your above statement is not true.

From the Qu'ran:

The Immunity 9.30 And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
It looks as though the above (from the Qu'ran) is calling for the destruction of those who would follow Jesus.

No, Islam and Christianity are not just splinters, Islam is a false religion.

As to the OP: Gotta love the sinner, all while hating the sin. We would do a great and grave disservice to tell those who have been decieved that they are fine to stay on the path they are currently on. We also must remember that WE WERE ALL ENEMIES of God before we were reconciled to Him through the precious blood of Jesus.

In Christ, GB

Your quoted passage is saying that Allah will judge the Christians on Judgment Day. It is not calling for the destruction of Christians at the hands of Muslims. We've discussed this before. There are many pro-Christian statements in the Quran. Since you know the Quran so well, I'm sure you are familiar with them.

Peace

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[good brother]

Your quoted passage is saying that Allah will judge the Christians on Judgment Day. It is not calling for the destruction of Christians at the hands of Muslims.

Even if you were correct on your statement, it wouldn't change a thing. Either way it is (my interpretation or yours), Islam still says that the Christians should/will be destroyed by Allah. That kind of theology is in direct opposition to what the Bible says will happen in the end. The Bible says that those who have trusted in Jesus (Christians) will get eternal life, not destruction as the Qu'ran teaches. Either way it says the opposite of what the Bible says. That, my friend, is a false religion according to the Bible's standards.

In Christ, GB

 

[steve_bakr]

Even if you were correct on your statement, it wouldn't change a thing. Either way it is (my interpretation or yours), Islam still says that the Christians should/will be destroyed by Allah. That kind of theology is in direct opposition to what the Bible says will happen in the end. The Bible says that those who have trusted in Jesus (Christians) will get eternal life, not destruction as the Qu'ran teaches. Either way it says the opposite of what the Bible says. That, my friend, is a false religion according to the Bible's standards.

In Christ, GB

I take issue with those verses as well. The Quran also says that the followers of Christ will be held in greater esteem by Allah than other men. Go figure. That's the nature of the Quran.

What I point out to you is that you never portray a balanced view of the Quran and Islam. You take a very dishonest approach. I don't think that it serves Christianity as you think it does, because, those who make an honest study of religion, can see exactly what you are doing.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[good brother]

I take issue with those verses as well. The Quran also says that the followers of Christ will be held in greater esteem by Allah than other men. Go figure. That's the nature of the Quran.

What I point out to you is that you never portray a balanced view of the Quran and Islam. You take a very dishonest approach. I don't think that it serves Christianity as you think it does, because, those who make an honest study of religion, can see exactly what you are doing.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

Show me one verse from the Quran that directly negates the verse I quoted. If you cannot, then we must think that it still stands.

In addition to the verse I have already presented, there is the issue of the fact that the Quran teaches a Jesus other than the one preached to us in the Bible. According to the Bible we are not to accept ANY Jesus other than the one preached of in the Bible. The Bible warns us that anyone who teaches a different Jesus is a false teacher and a false prophet belonging to false religions

4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

... 12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

​

This passage really cannot be seen any other way than a warning for believers to not listen to those who would "preach a Jesus other than the Jesus" that was first preached to them from the Bible. This verse shows that those who would preach a different Jesus are false apostles. I really don't know how one can mesh together two opposing religions based upon what they say individually about the other, let alone the fact that we, as Christians, count the Bible as the absolute source on the written revelation of Yahweh God.


In Christ, GB

 

[steve_bakr]

Show me one verse from the Quran that directly negates the verse I quoted. If you cannot, then we must think that it still stands.

In addition to the verse I have already presented, there is the issue of the fact that the Quran teaches a Jesus other than the one preached to us in the Bible. According to the Bible we are not to accept ANY Jesus other than the one preached of in the Bible. The Bible warns us that anyone who teaches a different Jesus is a false teacher and a false prophet belonging to false religions

4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

... 12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

This passage really cannot be seen any other way than a warning for believers to not listen to those who would "preach a Jesus other than the Jesus" that was first preached to them from the Bible. This verse shows that those who would preach a different Jesus are false apostles. I really don't know how one can mesh together two opposing religions based upon what they say individually about the other, let alone the fact that we, as Christians, count the Bible as the absolute source on the written revelation of Yahweh God.

In Christ, GB

You're doing it again. Just because you can preach on a soapbox doesn't mean you are handling the subject fairly. Just because you can be holier-than-thou doesn't make you an embodiment of Christ's love for all people. You need to concentrate on Christ's love instead of trolling the Muslim threads.

In Christ.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[PaladinValer]

Psalm 11:5 The LORD examines the righteous,
but the wicked, those who love violence,
he hates with a passion.

Isiaih 61:8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery and wrongdoing.

Revelation 2:6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
​

God's word says there are certain things He hates.

I already countered literal interpretations of the word "hate." Continuing to quote literally isn't a counter but a repeat.

Answer the points, please.

It seems like a different thread topic, but if God can hate yet He is the source and originator of agape love, then your above statement is not true.

If God is Love, then He is incapable of hating, for hate is a void of love. We say God cannot do evil because He is Good, after all.

Again, Christianity is a religion that absolutely rejects dualism like you are suggesting. Either God is absolutely Love or He is not God.

From the Qu'ran:

The Immunity 9.30 And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
​

It looks as though the above (from the Qu'ran) is calling for the destruction of those who would follow Jesus.

I found a very interested Muslim interpretation of that passage which explains the passage: it refers only to those Christians and Jews who were attempting to be hostile towards the Muslims. That does make sense given the fact that this surah was written during a time when the Muslims were persecuted by many Pagan, Jewish, and Christian communities and peoples around them.

The Qur'an makes it very clear that Muslims honor those who make peace treaties and keep them.

Your implied interpretation of the passage is then off.

No, Islam and Christianity are not just splinters, Islam is a false religion.

Straw Man. I never suggested as much, and I specifically said I believe Islam to be a false religion. If you actually took the time to read what I said, you'd not even bother replying to me with this sentence.

I do not defend the errors of Islam. However, I will not stand for people, especially non-Muslims, accusing Muslims of "believing thus because of this surah and verse" when Muslims themselves don't even interpret it the way they are being accused of. There is no justice in it and it only fuels tensions that already exist between many Christians and Muslims.

If we want Muslims to understand the Bible (implying here how Christians interpret it), then we need to understand where the Muslims themselves are coming from. That means understanding their religion and their Qur'an in how they interpret it, not how we think it should be.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Steve Bakr,

It is not calling for the destruction of Christians at the hands of Muslims.

There are passages in Surah’s 9 and 5 that seem to say just that.

We've discussed this before.

And we have discussed the principle of abrogation and surah passages that address it.

There are many pro-Christian statements in the Quran.

As there are many anti-Christian and Jewish statements.

Since you know the Quran so well, I'm sure you are familiar with them.

but are you going to acknowledge the ones that are negative towards Christians and the ones that deny Jesus Christ as the risen So of God.

I take issue with those verses as well. The Quran also says that the followers of Christ will be held in greater esteem by Allah than other men. Go figure. That's the nature of the Quran.

Again, I suggest with abrogation it isnt. The nature of the Quran from the later Medina surahs is that Christians and Jews do not honour or follow Allah

What I point out to you is that you never portray a balanced view of the Quran and Islam.

I would have thought it was fairly obvious that from acknowledging both the earlier Mecca Surahs you cite, and the later Medina ones we cite that we do portray a balanced view and you don’t.

You're doing it again. Just because you can preach on a soapbox doesn't mean you are handling the subject fairly.

that’s true, but just because you object to a soapbox doesn’t mean what is being said isnt true.

Just because you can be holier-than-thou doesn't make you an embodiment of Christ's love for all people. You need to concentrate on Christ's love instead of trolling the Muslim threads.

This is naughty. No one is denying Christ’s love for all people, its in the Bible (not sure it is in the Quran) We are only dealing with what the Holy Bible and the Quran say, whether you agree with either or not.