Poll for Christians on Muslims

[brightmorningstar]

PaladinValer,

I already countered literal interpretations of the word "hate." Continuing to quote literally isn't a counter but a repeat.

Throughout the debates liberals and conservatives dispute the understanding of the word love, so it is hardly surprising there is now a dispute over the word hate. Sadly for you my friend the Bible versions all say hate. So hate it is.

If God is Love,

Let me stop you there. The Biblical testimony of God says God is love, as soon as you say ‘if’ you are introducing doubt. All things are possible for God, and if God can love and hate then God can hate, God is God He isnt boxed by human reasoning.

Either God is absolutely Love or He is not God.

then it is quite obvious God is absolutely love, absolute love hates evil.

I found a very interested Muslim interpretation of that passage which explains the passage: it refers only to those Christians and Jews who were attempting to be hostile towards the Muslims. That does make sense given the fact that this surah was written during a time when the Muslims were persecuted by many Pagan, Jewish, and Christian communities and peoples around them.

Ah. not quite. As far as I am aware these latter Quran verses make no specific distinction of Jews and Christians who are not hostile. The Quran references about Jews and Christians are with reference to what they believe from the Bible (Torah and Injil) As to the persecution of Muslims, that is Mohammed and his followers, this seems to be essentially the case. In my understanding there was grwoing antagonism and a Jewish women tried to poison Mohammed, though his 'bodyguard' had her killed. Towards the end Mohammed materminded military style campaigns against Jewsih and Arab tribes, not sure there is any indication of much in the way of Christian opposition in Medina. There is no real indication of any discrimination of Jews who accepted Allah as opposed to thoise who did as far as I am aware; perhaps you can give some examples from Haddith.

Your implied interpretation of the passage is then off.

Ah the old interpretation chestnut again, the one that’s claims when the Bible says men, it doesn’t mean all men if they are homosexual and when the Quran says believers of the Injil it doesn’t mean all Christians.

I do not defend the errors of Islam. However, I will not stand for people, especially non-Muslims, accusing Muslims of "believing thus because of this surah and verse" when Muslims themselves don't even interpret it the way they are being accused of. There is no justice in it and it only fuels tensions that already exist between many Christians and Muslims.

Which Muslims are you referring to, the ones who interpret what the Quran says the way it says it, or the ones who interpret what the Quran says the way you favour it?

If we want Muslims to understand the Bible (implying here how Christians interpret it), then we need to understand where the Muslims themselves are coming from.

True but which Muslims, the ones who are in line with what the Quran says, or the ones who interpret it differently from what it says?

The issue we have is about what the Bible and Quran say, not what different Christians and Muslims may or may not say about them.

 

[PaladinValer]

PaladinValer,
Throughout the debates liberals and conservatives dispute the understanding of the word love, so it is hardly surprising there is now a dispute over the word hate. Sadly for you my friend the Bible versions all say hate. So hate it is.

1. I'm not a liberal.
2. You forget that Christianity rejects dualism. I am neither a Gnostic or a Manichean. They embrace that heresy; I do not. If that is liberal, then Christianity is a load and we may as well follow some other religion. I have no delight in the heretical philosophies that make God an agent of evil or an equal to another force. No thank you.

Let me stop you there. The Biblical testimony of God says God is love, as soon as you say ‘if’ you are introducing doubt. All things are possible for God, and if God can love and hate then God can hate, God is God He isnt boxed by human reasoning.

1. Doubt isn't the enemy of faith. On the contrary, it is part and parcel to it, for faith without doubt no longer is faith.
2. I already gave exactly why I reject hate as being a part of God. It stems from a Gnostic or Manichean understanding and not an orthodox one. I utterly reject any sort of dualistic theology because God has no equal.

then it is quite obvious God is absolutely love, absolute love hates evil.

Hate is the absence of love. It isn't a substance of its own. That's orthodox Christianity.

Ah. not quite. As far as I am aware these latter Quran verses make no specific distinction of Jews and Christians who are not hostile.

Actually, it does. However, even if it didn't, the schematic knowledge cannot be ignored.

Ah the old interpretation chestnut again, the one that’s claims when the Bible says men, it doesn’t mean all men if they are homosexual and when the Quran says believers of the Injil it doesn’t mean all Christians.
Which Muslims are you referring to, the ones who interpret what the Quran says the way it says it, or the ones who interpret what the Quran says the way you favour it?

Again, I include schematic knowledge when I interpret because without doing so, you will not arrive to a correct interpretation. Same is true with any religious text; context is vital.

True but which Muslims, the ones who are in line with what the Quran says, or the ones who interpret it differently from what it says?

Circular Reasoning.

The issue we have is about what the Bible and Quran say, not what different Christians and Muslims may or may not say about them.

Circular Reasoning.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Paladinvaler,

1. I'm not a liberal.

I didn’t say you were, but liberals dispute the meaning of the words.

Let me stop you there. The Biblical testimony of God says God is love, as soon as you say ‘if’ you are introducing doubt. All things are possible for God, and if God can love and hate then God can hate, God is God He isnt boxed by human reasoning.

1. Doubt isn't the enemy of faith. On the contrary, it is part and parcel to it, for faith without doubt no longer is faith.

On the contrary, whilst it is not necessarily the enemy of faith, it often is according to Jesus is it. Not least with Thomas, but also James 1:6 “But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.”
But you have drifted off into tangents. The Biblical testimony says God hates, all you are now saying is that you doubt what God has said. .

2. I already gave exactly why I reject hate as being a part of God. It stems from a Gnostic or Manichean understanding and not an orthodox one. I utterly reject any sort of dualistic theology because God has no equal.

Nonsense, this is not doubt on your part but disbelief, the testimony says God who is Love hates evil.

Hate is the absence of love. It isn't a substance of its own. That's orthodox Christianity.

No, the word, which is orthodox Christianity says God is love and God hates evil, that it doesn’t fit your reasoning doesn’t change God.

Actually, it does. However, even if it didn't, the schematic knowledge cannot be ignored.

Actually it doesn’t and I am waiting to see you prove me wrong if I am wrong, with some example.

Again, I include schematic knowledge when I interpret because without doing so, you will not arrive to a correct interpretation. Same is true with any religious text; context is vital.

So do I so how come the difference?
Instead of claiming you do things try and demonstrate it’s the case with some examples.

Circular Reasoning.

logical fallicy, and straw man.
Please try and give some examples of your reasoning instead of just your own reasoning.

 

[Archivist]

Jesus hasent fulfilled yet anyhow. He has not come back to kill all sinners yet and take the good people to heaven. So he was not completely peaceful. Also he is the son of a worrier god.

A "worrier" god?

Exactly what does God worry about???

Anyhow Islamic people are wicked.

Not the ones I know.

 

[Ave Maria]

I love Muslims and hope to see them in Heaven someday.

 

[talitha]

I love Muslims and hope to see them in Heaven someday.

You do realize that this will only happen if they reject Islam when faced with the Gospel?

 

[steve_bakr]

I love Muslims and hope to see them in Heaven someday.

I feel the same way, Ave Maria.

Peace

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[PaladinValer]

You do realize that this will only happen if they reject Islam when faced with the Gospel?

Or, if they were truly practicing Christianity without realizing it. See St. Matthew 25:31-40...or within The Last Battle in St. C.S. Lewis' The Chronicles of Narnia, how Emeth winds up in Aslan's Country.

 

[steve_bakr]

Steve Bakr,
There are passages in Surah's 9 and 5 that seem to say just that.
And we have discussed the principle of abrogation and surah passages that address it.
As there are many anti-Christian and Jewish statements.
but are you going to acknowledge the ones that are negative towards Christians and the ones that deny Jesus Christ as the risen So of God.


Again, I suggest with abrogation it isnt. The nature of the Quran from the later Medina surahs is that Christians and Jews do not honour or follow Allah

I would have thought it was fairly obvious that from acknowledging both the earlier Mecca Surahs you cite, and the later Medina ones we cite that we do portray a balanced view and you don't.

that's true, but just because you object to a soapbox doesn't mean what is being said isnt true.
This is naughty. No one is denying Christ's love for all people, its in the Bible (not sure it is in the Quran) We are only dealing with what the Holy Bible and the Quran say, whether you agree with either or not.

About abrogation, I tried to mention in another discussion that it is not universally held by all Muslims.

Also, you seem to have some knowledge of Islam, but not a balanced knowledge. I suggest that you read authors such as Martin Lings, William Chittick, Frithjof Schuon, Titus Burkhart, and especially Seyed Nasr, who has written many fine works.

You seem unfamiliar with the Islam of these Islamic scholars and their view of the Quran. You seem unwilling to consider any interpretation of the Quran other than the most violent one. This is what fundamentalists do. Perhaps you do not want to consider any other view. I hope that you will.

One more author I forgot to mention is Muhammad Yusuf Ali. He is a scholar and translator whose Quran Translation and Commentary spans about 1850 pages. I read every word of it and I suggest that you do too.

Peace

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[woodpecker]

to the op,

the religion Islam is of Satan. As Christians we are called to love everyone, even our enemies.

As for those replying here who still live under the laws of the OT, you are cursed. Jesus told us the new law is to love God with all our being, and love our neighbors as ourselves, (and enemies)

PLEASE READ

1Oh, foolish Galatians (THOSE POSTING HERE)! Who has cast an evil spell on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christ’s death was made as clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross.

2Let me ask you this one question:

Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses?

Of course not!

You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ.

3How foolish can you be?

After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?

4Have you experienceda so much for nothing? Surely it was not in vain, was it?

5I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law?

Of course not!

It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ.

6In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”b 7The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God. (Galatians 3)

 

[good brother]

Or, if they were truly practicing Christianity without realizing it. See St. Matthew 25:31-40...or within The Last Battle in St. C.S. Lewis' The Chronicles of Narnia, how Emeth winds up in Aslan's Country.

Islam is NOT Christianity in disguise. Islam teaches a different Jesus than the one preached to us first in the Bible.

As far as the Matthew passage goes, it is talking about Jesus receiving people who trusted Him as Savior and followed His teachings, and sending people away from Him for NOT following Him.

And as far as the "Last Battle" goes, for as much as I absolutely loved (LOVED LOVED LOVED) the whole Narnia series ( I have read through them for my own enjoyment and look forward to sharing it with my son and reading it to him), it is not the same as the gospel and we would all be good to remember as much. It is just like the "Left Behind" series. I loved them too, but we must take everything back to Scripture. It's along the same lines as Dan Brown's novels. How many people have accepted them as truth because Brown said so but will question the Bible because they refuse to go back to the authority, the Bible. I hope this makes sense.

In Christ, GB

 

[brightmorningstar]

PaladinValer,

Or, if they were truly practicing Christianity without realizing it. See St. Matthew 25:31-40...or within The Last Battle in St. C.S. Lewis' The Chronicles of Narnia, how Emeth winds up in Aslan's Country.

Ah, the Chronicles are are fiction.
But the Matthew 25 passage concerns who truly know Jesus Christ; that would in theory eliminate Muslims, though it seems you are under the impression it somehow includes them.
Many Muslims are having dreams where Christ Jesus reveals Himself to them, ask some of these whether they think the Islamic Allah is the same.
　

 

[brightmorningstar]

Steve Bakr,

About abrogation, I tried to mention in another discussion that it is not universally held by all Muslims.

Not a suitable answer. Sure if for example one goes to Muslims in a country like Oman you will find they dont like the Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia. Who are you to judge which Muslims have it right? But the Quran verses explain abrogation, and if its not the case then why the conflicting passages?
but are you going to acknowledge the ones that are negative towards Christians and the ones that deny Jesus Christ as the risen Son of God. If you are then are you going to deny the Biblical testimony that says such denial of Christ denies also the Father God and is the spirit of anti-christ.
Because at the moment you seem to be rejecting the Biblical testimony and some of the Quran to choose a conflicting Islamic view that suits your preferred ideas of God.

Also, you seem to have some knowledge of Islam, but not a balanced knowledge. I suggest that you read authors such as Martin Lings, William Chittick, Frithjof Schuon, Titus Burkhart, and especially Seyed Nasr, who has written many fine works.

These guys are Muslims and Comparative religion scholars, why would the blind be any use leading the blind? I suggest you spend some time in Islamic countries and find out whether what they write is balanced. I suggest in response to them you read Jesus and Mohammed by Mark Gabriel.
I suggest instead of a thread about Muslims, which it seems we all love, you seem very keen on defending Islam, a religion that denies our Lord Jesus Christ who IS the risen Son of God.
But I suggest if you want a balanced view you read some books by some of the Christians whose ministries involve reconciliation of Jew and Arab and you will see God has plans for the Jew and the Arab through Jesus Christ. (ie Isaiah 19)
Try books by Bill Musk or Marcel Rebaia.

 

[PaladinValer]

Islam is NOT Christianity in disguise. Islam teaches a different Jesus than the one preached to us first in the Bible.

Straw Man.

As far as the Matthew passage goes, it is talking about Jesus receiving people who trusted Him as Savior and followed His teachings, and sending people away from Him for NOT following Him.

Actually, the passage is about the entirety of the human race. Look carefully at the language and pull up your books on idiom. Not all who will experience heaven are Christians, and not all who will experience hell are non-Christians. St. C.S. Lewis portrays the meaning of that particular passage in Holy Scripture extraordinarily well in the area where I referenced.

And as far as the "Last Battle" goes, for as much as I absolutely loved (LOVED LOVED LOVED) the whole Narnia series ( I have read through them for my own enjoyment and look forward to sharing it with my son and reading it to him), it is not the same as the gospel and we would all be good to remember as much.

Except you are then willingly ignoring or are not informed of his intentions by the books. I suggest you do a little research.

It is just like the "Left Behind" series. I loved them too, but we must take everything back to Scripture.

You are now comparing apples to oranges.

It's along the same lines as Dan Brown's novels. How many people have accepted them as truth because Brown said so but will question the Bible because they refuse to go back to the authority, the Bible. I hope this makes sense.

It doesn't make sense because you are equivocating things that don't equal each other based on false schema.

Learn the basis of the Chronicles of Narnia and you'll learn why you are completely wrong here.

PaladinValer,
Ah, the Chronicles are are fiction.
But the Matthew 25 passage concerns who truly know Jesus Christ; that would in theory eliminate Muslims, though it seems you are under the impression it somehow includes them.

Non-answer.

 

[brightmorningstar]

PaladinValer,

Straw Man.

no it is not a straw man, its the crucial part of why what you are saying is incorrect. Islam not only teaches another Jesus, but denies Jesus Christ for who He is.

Actually, the passage is about the entirety of the human race.

Who says? It says the nations and the people. There is every indication in this passage that it is all, the context of the chapter and the Bible holistically affirms it is.

Look carefully at the language and pull up your books on idiom.

yes, done that, and look carefully at the language and see what it says.

Not all who will experience heaven are Christians,

It doesn’t say that, but it doesnt indicate that perhaps all who call themselves Christians wont. Can you read it again please.
Again where do these liberal assumptions come from? What good brother wrote is a correct assumption according to the text.
As far as the Matthew passage goes, it is talking about Jesus receiving people who trusted Him as Savior and followed His teachings, and sending people away from Him for NOT following Him.

It doesn't make sense because you are equivocating things that don't equal each other based on false schema.

No idea what that means but yes people turn away from the truth of the Biblical testimony to another Jesus... for example the Isa of Islam

Non-answer.

A one line contradiction of an evidenced reason is really no debate at all,. We can assume its flawed your argument.

 

[PaladinValer]

PaladinValer,
no it is not a straw man, its the crucial part of why what you are saying is incorrect. Islam not only teaches another Jesus, but denies Jesus Christ for who He is.

Incorrect. It was a Straw Man. Learn what a Straw Man is.

Since I wasn't suggesting that Islam isn't another Christianity, him bringing it up as a counter is therefore a Straw Man fallacy.

In addition, he was also suggesting a very Marcion idea.

Who says? It says the nations and the people. There is every indication in this passage that it is all, the context of the chapter and the Bible holistically affirms it is.

What does "nations" in idiom mean in the Hebrew language? St. Matthew's Gospel had the Hebrew people in mind when it was written, so it will contain a lot of themes, idioms, and ideas that the Hebrew people would recognize.

It doesn't take a lot of thinking, if you have the schema, to recognize what is being said. As I said before: context.

yes, done that, and look carefully at the language and see what it says.

I recognize it very easily. Nations=non-Hebrews. People outside. Gentiles. And since the Church was around when the Gospel was written, it could also have a meaning of people outside Israel.

It is a warning. Right religion is practiced, not just believed in.

It doesn’t say that,

It most certainly does.

but it doesnt indicate that perhaps all who call themselves Christians wont. Can you read it again please.

I am well versed in the background. I know exactly what it means and how it is to be interpreted.

Again where do these liberal assumptions come from?

Actually, they are orthodox.

What good brother wrote is a correct assumption according to the text.

It rejected the idiom behind the verse. It was therefore an incorrect presupposition.

As far as the Matthew passage goes, it is talking about Jesus receiving people who trusted Him as Savior and followed His teachings, and sending people away from Him for NOT following Him.

No. It is a warning. They ask "when did we do those things?" Christians who live a life of faith wouldn't have to ask. Those outside would.

No idea what that means but yes people turn away from the truth of the Biblical testimony to another Jesus... for example the Isa of Islam

Marcionism, not orthodox Christianity. Having belief in but having wrong theology in the same deity as someone who also believes in said deity but has right theology about said deity doesn't mean that the first person believes in a different deity. That was the heretic Marcion's problem and why the Church condemned his teachings on that matter.

At least Muslims give official declaration of Jesus of being more than a good man. They even call him Messiah. Jews don't do that. I give credit where credit is due. Wrong theology, but better than that of practically every other religion out there.

 

[woodpecker]

it does not matter how close to Christianity a religion is, if a person does not believe and have faith in Jesus, God who came to earth, being the perfect sacrifice to die for our sins, the final sacrifice, and who was then raised from dead, to judge the saved and the unsaved....

if a person does not submit to this truth, they worship another god, and there sins are not covered in Christ blood, and will not spend eternity with God.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Paladinvaler

Incorrect. It was a Straw Man. Learn what a Straw Man is.

its the crucial part of why what you are saying is incorrect. Islam not only teaches another Jesus, but denies Jesus Christ for who He is.
No idea what that means but yes people turn away from the truth of the Biblical testimony to another Jesus... for example the Isa of Islam

Marcionism, not orthodox Christianity.

No, Marcion considered God in the OT was not the same as Christ, similar to Islam’s position.

At least Muslims give official declaration of Jesus of being more than a good man.

If one removes a little from the truth one no longer has the truth. As He is the risen Son of God, Islam no longer has the truth.

They even call him Messiah. Jews don't do that. I give credit where credit is due. Wrong theology, but better than that of practically every other religion out there.

But you are looking at what the Jews, Muslims and other religions say, I am looking at what Christ said and that is at odds with your other religion’s views.

 

[brightmorningstar]

it does not matter how close to Christianity a religion is, if a person does not believe and have faith in Jesus, God who came to earth, being the perfect sacrifice to die for our sins, the final sacrifice, and who was then raised from dead, to judge the saved and the unsaved....

if a person does not submit to this truth, they worship another god, and there sins are not covered in Christ blood, and will not spend eternity with God.

correct.
That is what some cannot see, I am just explaining to them why they cant see it, and it is because they are not trusting in what Christ said, but what philosophies that dont know Christ think about Him.

 

[PaladinValer]

it does not matter how close to Christianity a religion is, <snip>

Folks, READ MY POSTS and THEN respond.

Straw Man once again.

Paladinvaler
its the crucial part of why what you are saying is incorrect. Islam not only teaches another Jesus, but denies Jesus Christ for who He is.

Incorrect. They have a different and incorrect theology about the same person. That is basic stuff you learn in World History in high school.

No, Marcion considered God in the OT was not the same as Christ, similar to Islam’s position.
If one removes a little from the truth one no longer has the truth. As He is the risen Son of God, Islam no longer has the truth.

Again, Straw Man. I've said twice (now three times with the following) that I consider Islam to be a false religion. I have no clue why people are ignoring that fact, but part of reading comprehension is reading the ENTIRETY and THEN, after EVERYTHING is read as a WHOLE, responding to it. That's something kids in elementary school learn.

If you are going to debate, debate what is being said, not what you build up for yourself to debate or quote mines.

But you are looking at what the Jews, Muslims and other religions say, I am looking at what Christ said and that is at odds with your other religion’s views.

I'm going to prove, once and for all, you are building up Straw Men: I said, and I quote: "Wrong theology, but better than that of practically every other religion out there"

Bringing what you said above up makes ABSOLUTELY NO POINT when I have stated what I quoted above.

Quit the Straw Men. Answer my points and rebut if you must.

Finally, you are suggesting Marcionism. Look it up. You have an Anglican icon, and Anglicanism rejects Marcionism. My definition of it is absolutely true to what that particular heretic taught. Why are you promoting it here?