Poll for Christians on Muslims

[good brother]

Straw Man.

You say my argument is a "strawman" yet let's take a look at the truth of who Jesus is according to Islam and Christianity.

Christian Jesus: Son of God, born of a virgin, sinless, Messiah, died a sacrificial death, rose again three days later, seated at the right hand of God the Father, said "It is finished" thus completing the work of salvation and reconciliation.

Islam Jesus: NOT the Son of God, did NOT die on the cross,(therefore) NOT resurrected from the dead to victor over death and the grave, Mohammed said that Jesus prophecied of him (Mo) concerning a "last prophet" that would come (That is ironic that this supposed last prophet, Mo, would come and tell people things contrary to what Jesus taught. If Jesus's work really was finished, why would He need another person to come and reveal more especially if that "prophet" was teaching things diametrically oppsed to what was taught earlier by Jesus Himself?)
​

Do they paint the same picture? No. Therefore, as I said before, Islam teaches a DIFFERENT JESUS than the one preached to us from the Bible.

Actually, the passage is about the entirety of the human race. Look carefully at the language and pull up your books on idiom. Not all who will experience heaven are Christians, and not all who will experience hell are non-Christians.

You need to read that passage in it's entirety.

St. C.S. Lewis portrays the meaning of that particular passage in Holy Scripture extraordinarily well in the area where I referenced.

For as wonderful as his analogies were concerning Biblical matters, his books are NOT the absolute, God breathed, inspired, inerrant, infallible word of God.

Except you are then willingly ignoring or are not informed of his intentions by the books. I suggest you do a little research.

Friend, I know Lewis's books very well and have thoroughly enjoyed them for the imagery that he paints when he stirs together Biblical truths in a wonderful work of fiction. I love how Aslan portays Jesus as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and how "He's not a tame lion." meaning that Aslan/Jesus is not some "pet" by which we call on for parlor or circus tricks. I love how Peter is High King Peter, a direct reference to Simon Peter. I love how Aslan laid down his life for the traitor (Edmund) just as Jesus laid down His life for me, a traitor against Jesus (God demonstrated His love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us). I love how Susan and Lucy are just like Mary and Mary as they went to the tomb to care for the dead body of their crucified hero. I love how the stone table which contained the "Deep Magic" (the Law) was broken when when Aslan rose from the dead. I loved how in the book "Voyage of the Dawn Treader" how when Eustace became a dragon, he could only have the scales removed by Aslan, and that he couldn't do it on his own. That is just like how it is with us that Jesus must be the One to cleanse us, we cannot do it on our own.

I could go on and on and on about the wonderful images the C.S. painted with his pen, but the fact remains that his works are not the Word of God. Everything must be compared to God's word, including Mr. Lewis's.

You are now comparing apples to oranges.

LaHaye and Jenkins paint pictures in a fictional series based upon passages from the Bible. I don't see how they are any different from Lewis.

It doesn't make sense because you are equivocating things that don't equal each other based on false schema.

Brown began his novel "The DaVinci Code" with a sentence along this line: "This story is true." Even though it is not true, Brown sets it up to appear as truth. Many people would rather read the latest book than the most important book, and therefore don't know the truth from a hole in the ground because they have relied upon a piece of fiction for their theology rather than going back to the original (the Bible).

Learn the basis of the Chronicles of Narnia and you'll learn why you are completely wrong here.

I know the basis of "the Chronicles of Narnia"- it was to introduce Biblical truths to a younger crowd. I believe it says something along those lines somewhere in one of the later books in the series (I could be mistaken but I want to say it's in "Voyage of the Dawn Treader" or "Silver Chair"). This does not change the fact that it (Narnia), in and of itself, is NOT the word of God and should not be treated as holy or as sacred as the ACTUAL word of God.


I hope this is clear for I don't know if I could make it any clearer. Even if it's not as clear, we can always start up a thread comparing and contrasting Narnia.

As back to the topic at hand- I think my first statement in this post to you demonstrates well enough that the Jesus of Islam is not the same Jesus of the Bible and therefore must be considered a false doctrine we were warned of in the NT.

In Christ, GB

 

[brightmorningstar]

Paladinvaler

Incorrect. They have a different and incorrect theology about the same person. That is basic stuff you learn in World History in high school.

Not according to Christ Jesus. I follow Christ Jesus not schools comparative religion. Why are you citing comparative religion contrary to Christ’s teaching?

Now let me repeat,
its the crucial part of why what you are saying is incorrect. Islam not only teaches another Jesus, but denies Jesus Christ for who He is.

if you say incorrect to that statement I am afraid you are denying not only what the Bible says but also what the Quran says.

Again, Straw Man. I've said twice (now three times with the following) that I consider Islam to be a false religion.

If its a false religion why would be thinking it follows the same God when Christ’s teaching says without acknowledging the Son, it doesnt have the Father God either?
　

I'm going to prove,

Let me stop you there. Let me repeat,
But you are looking at what the Jews, Muslims and other religions say, I am looking at what Christ said and that is at odds with your other religion’s views.
That is my response to your point, are my statements correct.?

 

[good brother]

Bright, I think the world needs less Compartive Religion classes and more Contrasting Religion classes. We already know that Satan sneaks around masquerading as a minister of Light, what we really need now is a dose of "Knowing the truth so we can tell the difference between the truth and a lie so we can spot the masquerading Devil and avoid falling into his trappings."

In Christ, GB

 

[steve_bakr]

Incorrect. It was a Straw Man. Learn what a Straw Man is.

Since I wasn't suggesting that Islam isn't another Christianity, him bringing it up as a counter is therefore a Straw Man fallacy.

In addition, he was also suggesting a very Marcion idea.



What does "nations" in idiom mean in the Hebrew language? St. Matthew's Gospel had the Hebrew people in mind when it was written, so it will contain a lot of themes, idioms, and ideas that the Hebrew people would recognize.

It doesn't take a lot of thinking, if you have the schema, to recognize what is being said. As I said before: context.

I recognize it very easily. Nations=non-Hebrews. People outside. Gentiles. And since the Church was around when the Gospel was written, it could also have a meaning of people outside Israel.

It is a warning. Right religion is practiced, not just believed in.

It most certainly does.

I am well versed in the background. I know exactly what it means and how it is to be interpreted.

Actually, they are orthodox.

It rejected the idiom behind the verse. It was therefore an incorrect presupposition.

No. It is a warning. They ask "when did we do those things?" Christians who live a life of faith wouldn't have to ask. Those outside would.

Marcionism, not orthodox Christianity. Having belief in but having wrong theology in the same deity as someone who also believes in said deity but has right theology about said deity doesn't mean that the first person believes in a different deity. That was the heretic Marcion's problem and why the Church condemned his teachings on that matter.

At least Muslims give official declaration of Jesus of being more than a good man. They even call him Messiah. Jews don't do that. I give credit where credit is due. Wrong theology, but better than that of practically every other religion out there.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[steve_bakr]

Bright, I think the world needs less Compartive Religion classes and more Contrasting Religion classes. We already know that Satan sneaks around masquerading as a minister of Light, what we really need now is a dose of "Knowing the truth so we can tell the difference between the truth and a lie so we can spot the masquerading Devil and avoid falling into his trappings."

In Christ, GB

Sometimes the similarities found in religions can be a springboard for sharing the Gospel.

Peace

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[Archivist]

Brown began his novel "The DaVinci Code" with a sentence along this line: "This story is true."

As a librarian I really have to correct this.

The DaVinci Code begins as follows:

"The Priory of Sion —a European secret society founded in 1099—is a real organization."

Although this is stated as fact, the book is clearly labled as being a work of fiction. The Priory of Sion does exist. That is fact. It was not, however, founded in 1099. That is fiction. It is not unusal for writers of fiction, particularly historical fiction, to take liberties with actual facts. Newt Gingrich takes similiar liberties in his Civil War historical novels by having armies march over roads that didn't exist. There are certain "facts" that have to be accepted as such for the story to work. The book is still fiction.

I know, off-topic. Just a rant by a librarian. You may now return to your regularly scheduled programing.

 

[good brother]

Sometimes the similarities found in religions can be a springboard for sharing the Gospel.

Though I think more often than not, those similarities draw people away from the truth because they have an appearance of truth without being the truth. Isn't that why false religions contain a "Jesus" in their theology (though not the same Jesus of the Bible). They want to APPEAR like Christianity. That's what the NT says, "Satan masquerades as a minister of light therefore it's no wonder that his servants disguise themselves as servants of righteousness"-2 Cor 11:14-15.

In Christ, GB

 

[steve_bakr]

Though I think more often than not, those similarities draw people away from the truth because they have an appearance of truth without being the truth. Isn't that why false religions contain a "Jesus" in their theology (though not the same Jesus of the Bible). They want to APPEAR like Christianity. That's what the NT says, "Satan masquerades as a minister of light therefore it's no wonder that his servants disguise themselves as servants of righteousness"-2 Cor 11:14-15.

In Christ, GB

The ECF's, for example St. Augustine, said, whatever is true in other religions belongs to the Master of truth. That is why the earliest Christian apologists held Plato so highly, because the truth in his philosophy helped them develop a Christian theology.

What is true in Islam and other religions is true for us. Like the ECFs knew, we can even learn from them just as they learned from Plato. There are Catholic.Christians who also practice Buddhism. Bede Griffiths used the Hindu concept of Being, Consciousness, and Bliss to explain the Trinity. This is nothing new. Even Paul quoted a Pagan writer in the Bible--"In him we live and move and have our being." We cannot reject All of Islam without rejected some truths that are in Christianity.

I find some passages in the Quran downright edifying to my faith. For example, "God is closer to you than your own jugular vein;" "God has prepared for us a place wherein we will not know fatigue or tiredness" "Truly when we call on him, God hears;" and the 99 Names of God found in the Quran are very instructive--the Responder of Prayers, the Forgiver of Sins." And Muslim Philosophy is very informative as well. The works of Ibn Rushid were utilized by both Muslims and Christians.

I could go on, but the point is, following your view of religion, you would have to gut a good deal of Christian theology and apologetics.
We use what is true unapologetically, even though some of the Imams cry foul when we do so, because truth, wherever it occurs, belongs to the Holy Spirit.

Peace

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[PaladinValer]

You say my argument is a "strawman" yet let's take a look at the truth of who Jesus is according to Islam and Christianity.

A Straw Man is an argument which doesn't answer another person's argument but instead a constructed one, made up by the replier.

ANSWER MY POINTS, NOT THE ONES YOU MAKE UP FOR YOURSELF.

Do they paint the same picture? No.

Easy, perfect, undebatable counter:

Child 1 points to the sky as says "the sky is blue"
Child 2 points at the same sky as says "they sky is green"

Both point to the same thing, although only one is correct on the particular notion of color. It is the same object; one has the wrong opinion on it.

Both Islam and Christianity accept Jesus as the Messiah. Only one, Christianity, is correct in the theology. Same person, only Islam is wrong and Christianity is right on the particulars.

Otherwise, you fall into Marcionism and out of orthodox Christian theology.

You need to read that passage in it's entirety.

I have.

For as wonderful as his analogies were concerning Biblical matters, his books are NOT the absolute, God breathed, inspired, inerrant, infallible word of God.

It is, however, a correct interpretation of the Holy Scriptures based on the idiom.

Friend, I know Lewis's books very well and have thoroughly enjoyed them for the imagery that he paints when he stirs together Biblical truths in a wonderful work of fiction. I love how Aslan portays Jesus as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and how "He's not a tame lion." meaning that Aslan/Jesus is not some "pet" by which we call on for parlor or circus tricks. I love how Peter is High King Peter, a direct reference to Simon Peter. I love how Aslan laid down his life for the traitor (Edmund) just as Jesus laid down His life for me, a traitor against Jesus (God demonstrated His love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us). I love how Susan and Lucy are just like Mary and Mary as they went to the tomb to care for the dead body of their crucified hero. I love how the stone table which contained the "Deep Magic" (the Law) was broken when when Aslan rose from the dead. I loved how in the book "Voyage of the Dawn Treader" how when Eustace became a dragon, he could only have the scales removed by Aslan, and that he couldn't do it on his own. That is just like how it is with us that Jesus must be the One to cleanse us, we cannot do it on our own.

I could go on and on and on about the wonderful images the C.S. painted with his pen, but the fact remains that his works are not the Word of God. Everything must be compared to God's word, including Mr. Lewis's.

And St. Lewis is correct in his interpretation. It is also shared by the other Apostolic churches.

Enough with the Marcionism and Manicheanism here. How about orthodoxy?

Paladinvaler
Not according to Christ Jesus. I follow Christ Jesus not schools comparative religion. Why are you citing comparative religion contrary to Christ’s teaching?

<snip>

No, correction: according to your incorrect interpretation. Mine is correct. Mine isn't based on Manicheanism nor Marcionism. I don't adhere to those false theologies. Orthodox Christianity, which includes the entirety of orthodox Anglicanism, utterly rejects those theologies as heresy. Any sort of saying hate is a substance when it is the opposite of love is Manichean. Any sort of suggesting it isn't the same Jesus because of bad theology on him is Marcion. Look up what those theologies teach and you'll see my definitions are dead on target.

I am an orthodox Christian. If you think rejecting Marcionism and Manicheanism are "liberal," then we have a serious problem...

Furthermore, I'd love it if people would quit building Straw Men. Debate what people say, not what you think they did nor what you want to when you quote them. It is only respectful and it is only honest.

 

[brightmorningstar]

PaladinValer,

No, correction: according to your incorrect interpretation.

Straw man, I havent given any interpretation, I have given you the scriptures, they speak for themselves. If you dont believe what they say then its unbelief on your part.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Steve Bakr,

What is true in Islam and other religions is true for us. Like the ECFs knew, we can even learn from them just as they learned from Plato. There are Catholic.Christians who also practice Buddhism. Bede Griffiths used the Hindu concept of Being, Consciousness, and Bliss to explain the Trinity. This is nothing new. Even Paul quoted a Pagan writer in the Bible--"In him we live and move and have our being." We cannot reject All of Islam without rejected some truths that are in Christianity.

I find some passages in the Quran downright edifying to my faith. For example, "God is closer to you than your own jugular vein;" "God has prepared for us a place wherein we will not know fatigue or tiredness" "Truly when we call on him, God hears;" and the 99 Names of God found in the Quran are very instructive--the Responder of Prayers, the Forgiver of Sins." And Muslim Philosophy is very informative as well. The works of Ibn Rushid were utilized by both Muslims and Christians.

Then like so often we seem to be having different faiths.
Islam cannot be true if our Christian faith is true because the Islamic faith affirms what the author of our faith, Jesus Christ, says is the spirit against Him. Thats what the Quran for the Islamic faith says and what the Holy Bible of our faith says. Quite where your ideas are coming from I dont know

 

[woodpecker]

Paul did use a pagan author to witness to pagans, but but he was not using the pagan author for his own edification.

Yes we should know what other religions believe, even the philosophies of men (women) but we should not live by their "holy" scriptures or books of wisdom for our own spiritual growth, or how to live....we are not of the world, but our wisdom comes from the Spirit, reading the bible, and authors blessed to teach by the Holy Spirit.

The wisdom of men, is foolishness to God. (1Corinthians 3)

 

[Matariki]

I respect Muslims, just like how I respect Christians. The difference between me and them is that we don't associate with the same beliefs. Otherwise besides that, I treat them no differently from how I treat anyone else.

 

[PaladinValer]

PaladinValer,

Straw man, I havent given any interpretation, I have given you the scriptures, they speak for themselves

To read is to interpret. Without having to, you've offered an interpretation. Sadly, it is the wrong one because it suggests heresies are true.

If you dont believe what they say then its unbelief on your part.

I believe what they say in an orthodox interpretation. Not one that supports Manicheanism or Marcionism.

 

[brightmorningstar]

PaladinValer,

To read is to interpret.

Which is liberalsim for denial. I guess I could either 'interpret' the text for what it says or for something other than what it says? You could know one because of what the text says. how could you know another 'interpretation' without me telling you, and how could you know whether I had interpreted it diferently in the first place?
To interpret a text one is reading, one has to interpet what the text says.

I believe what they say in an orthodox interpretation. Not one that supports Manicheanism or Marcionism.

Pigs can fly.
Islam cannot be true if our Christian faith is true, because the Islamic faith affirms what the author of our faith, Jesus Christ, says is the spirit against Him. Thats what the Quran for the Islamic faith says and what the Holy Bible of our faith says.
Can you address what the scriptures say instead of giving us your opinion on what you think Marcionism is?

 

[NDNgirl4ever]

The Muslims that I met have been very nice. I have no problem with them.

 

[steve_bakr]

Paul did use a pagan author to witness to pagans, but but he was not using the pagan author for his own edification.

Yes we should know what other religions believe, even the philosophies of men (women) but we should not live by their "holy" scriptures or books of wisdom for our own spiritual growth, or how to live....we are not of the world, but our wisdom comes from the Spirit, reading the bible, and authors blessed to teach by the Holy Spirit.

The wisdom of men, is foolishness to God. (1Corinthians 3)

I understand your concern. Not every Christian can study other religions. Some may become too enamored of them, others will only use what they've learned to spread enmity and forget their original calling to Love. But Paul must have found the Pagan writer edifying or he would not have put his words in the Bible. And today those words are there for our edification.

Peace

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[steve_bakr]

Steve Bakr,

Then like so often we seem to be having different faiths.
Islam cannot be true if our Christian faith is true because the Islamic faith affirms what the author of our faith, Jesus Christ, says is the spirit against Him. Thats what the Quran for the Islamic faith says and what the Holy Bible of our faith says. Quite where your ideas are coming from I dont know

My faith is in Jesus Christ.

The point I am making is that, in Islam just as in any other religion, there are things that are true and things that are not true. As St. Athanasias said, Whatever is true comes from the Holy Spirit, regardless of where it comes from. Whatever is false we reject. We don't have to paint everything with broad strokes.

Peace

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[steve_bakr]

My faith is in Jesus Christ.

The point I am making is that, in Islam just as in any other religion, there are things that are true and things that are not true. As St. Athanasias said, Whatever is true comes from the Holy Spirit, regardless of where it comes from. Whatever is false we reject. We don't have to paint everything with broad strokes.

And don't question my faith just because I have a different approach to World Religions than you do.

Peace

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[brightmorningstar]

Steve Bakr,

My faith is in Jesus Christ.

Then Islam cannot be true if our Christian faith is true because the Islamic faith affirms what the author of our faith, Jesus Christ, says is the spirit against Him.

The point I am making is that, in Islam just as in any other religion, there are things that are true and things that are not true.

But that is not entirely the case either as you see from above. . What makes something true is whether it is in line with Christ who is the truth.

So the Islamic religion which denies As St. Athanasias said, Whatever is true comes from the Holy Spirit, regardless of where it comes from. Whatever is false we reject. We don't have to paint everything with broad strokes.

So that is not from the source that is the truth.
As the Islamic religion is against the truth of Jesus Christ then why would you be looking to see truth in it?