Poll for Christians on Muslims

[steve_bakr]

Steve Bakr,
Then Islam cannot be true if our Christian faith is true because the Islamic faith affirms what the author of our faith, Jesus Christ, says is the spirit against Him.
But that is not entirely the case either as you see from above. . What makes something true is whether it is in line with Christ who is the truth.
So that is not from the source that is the truth.
As the Islamic religion is against the truth of Jesus Christ then why would you be looking to see truth in it?

Jesus Christ is the standard of truth, I couldn't agree with you more. Wherein we differ is that I see things in other religious works that do not disagree with the teachings of Jesus Christ and some that do disagree.

One of our primary disagreements with the Quran is the whole Christian Christology, such as the Divinity and Sonship of Jesus Christ. But when the Quran says that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, that he brought the dead back to life, that he healed lepers, and that he was taken up alive into heaven, therein we agree.

Peace

P.S. Are you up late, BMS?

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[brightmorningstar]

Steve Bakr,

Jesus Christ is the standard of truth, I couldn't agree with you more. Wherein we differ is that I see things in other religious works that do not disagree with the teachings of Jesus Christ and some that do disagree.

You haven’t addressed the point. Islam cannot be true if our Christian faith is true, because the Islamic faith affirms what the author of our faith, Jesus Christ, affirms is the spirit against Him.

 

[PaladinValer]

PaladinValer,
Which is liberalsim for denial.

No, which is part of reading comprehension you learn when you are in grade school.

I guess I could either 'interpret' the text for what it says or for something other than what it says?

<snips>

It is clear by the way you say or post things what you mean by them. That's a fundamental part of any spoken language, particularly our English one.

Pigs can fly.

<snips>

Embrace Manicheanism and Marcionism all you want. I'll stick to orthodox Anglicanism and reject.

And please, for now in STR, please don't dare based on this call any "liberal" in STR out for "unorthodoxy". Pot Kettle Black.

Also, quit the Straw Men. That is all.

 

[steve_bakr]

Steve Bakr,
You haven't addressed the point. Islam cannot be true if our Christian faith is true, because the Islamic faith affirms what the author of our faith, Jesus Christ, affirms is the spirit against Him.

You're making the false assumption that Islam has to be 100% true or 100% false. Neither is the case.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[brightmorningstar]

Steve Bakr,

You're making the false assumption that Islam has to be 100% true or 100% false. Neither is the case.

The statement was based on the truth of
the Bible and the falsehood of Islam. You have merely told me you dont trust Islam.

You haven't addressed the point. Islam cannot be true if our Christian faith is true, because the Islamic faith affirms what the author of our faith, Jesus Christ, affirms is the spirit against Him.
​

 

[steve_bakr]

Steve Bakr,
The statement was based on the truth of
the Bible and the falsehood of Islam. You have merely told me you dont trust Islam.
You haven't addressed the point. Islam cannot be true if our Christian faith is true, because the Islamic faith affirms what the author of our faith, Jesus Christ, affirms is the spirit against Him.

I think I have said that there are some things in Islam that are true and other things in Islam that are not true.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[brightmorningstar]

Brightmorningstar,

I think I have said that there are some things in Islam that are true and other things in Islam that are not true.

What benchmark are you using to make the judgement? Using the Bible as the truth, I wouldnt trust the Quran. Sure there are some values and morals shared, but you still havent addressed the point put to you.
Islam cannot be true if our Christian faith is true, because the Islamic faith affirms what the author of our faith, Jesus Christ, affirms is the spirit against Him.

 

[steve_bakr]

Brightmorningstar,
What benchmark are you using to make the judgement? Using the Bible as the truth, I wouldnt trust the Quran. Sure there are some values and morals shared, but you still havent addressed the point put to you.
Islam cannot be true if our Christian faith is true, because the Islamic faith affirms what the author of our faith, Jesus Christ, affirms is the spirit against Him.

I use the benchmark of my Christian faith as a filter for those things I accept or reject.

I think the difference in our thinking is that you want to reject Islam outright and, when I study Islam, I take each verse or doctrine or situation individually. So, I don't reject Islam in its entirety, only those things which don't agree with Christian doctrine.

BTW, you might want to visit the thread called, "A Case Study--priest converts to Islam" for some interesting conversation. One person who studied Islam intensely said that Islam was a beautiful religion.

I don't know if I would go that far, but Islam has some very elegant characteristics in the field of theology and philosophy which can be applied to Christian thought.

As a matter of fact, in their history, Islam and Christianity have borrowed from each other, particularly in the medieval period.

If I am not mistaken, St. Thomas Aquinas used Ibn Rushid's argument for the existence of God in his monumental work, Summa Theologica.

Muslim theology has some very useful observations about the names and qualities of God and Muslim philosophy has a very elegant description of creation and how God sustains it.

So, as I have said, there are both true and false things in Islam. Much of what is true, if you study deliberately, can be useful. Other things, which contradict our core beliefs, must be rejected.

Someone in another thread questioned my belief in the Bible. I do believe in it and I read parts of it every day.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[brightmorningstar]

Steve Bakr,

Jesus Christ is the standard of truth, I couldn't agree with you more.

Ok so when Jesus Christ&#8217;s NT teaching says the denial of the Son is the spirit of anti-Christ and the denial of the Father God as well, and the Quran says Jesus is not the risen Son of God or that God is Father Son and Holy Spirit, then you would believe Jesus Christ is the standard of truth rather than just claiming it but by demonstration showing you don&#8217;t trust Jesus as the standard of truth on this issue.

But when the Quran says that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, that he brought the dead back to life, that he healed lepers, and that he was taken up alive into heaven, therein we agree.

No because its not Jesus, it is the Islamic Isa. Jesus is the risen Son of God, the Quran doesn&#8217;t recognise Jesus Christ.
&#12288;

I use the benchmark of my Christian faith as a filter for those things I accept or reject.

So you claim, but the evidence shows you dont.

I think the difference in our thinking is that you want to reject Islam outright and, when I study Islam, I take each verse or doctrine or situation individually. So, I don't reject Islam in its entirety, only those things which don't agree with Christian doctrine.

If one believes Jesus Christ is the truth the way and the life one has already rejected Islam outright as explained to you. Your thinking doesnt buy into Christ as the truth, as soon as you come across what Jesus NT teaching says about such statements of denial in the Quran you ignore the truth of what Jesus Christ&#8217;s NT teaching says.

BTW,

BTW I have studied quite a lot about Islam and have a number of Muslim friends. I also know, and know of, a ex-Muslim scholars who are now born again Christians.
And I have studied the Quran and seen the evidence so I dont quite know why you are encouraging me to read about Muslim theology, if your benchmark really was the Bible the Quran is not reliable,.

 

[steve_bakr]

Steve Bakr,
Ok so when Jesus Christ's NT teaching says the denial of the Son is the spirit of anti-Christ and the denial of the Father God as well, and the Quran says Jesus is not the risen Son of God or that God is Father Son and Holy Spirit, then you would believe Jesus Christ is the standard of truth rather than just claiming it but by demonstration showing you don't trust Jesus as the standard of truth on this issue.
No because its not Jesus, it is the Islamic Isa. Jesus is the risen Son of God, the Quran doesn't recognise Jesus Christ.

So you claim, but the evidence shows you dont.

If one believes Jesus Christ is the truth the way and the life one has already rejected Islam outright as explained to you. Your thinking doesnt buy into Christ as the truth, as soon as you come across what Jesus NT teaching says about such statements of denial in the Quran you ignore the truth of what Jesus Christ's NT teaching says.

BTW I have studied quite a lot about Islam and have a number of Muslim friends. I also know, and know of, a ex-Muslim scholars who are now born again Christians.
And I have studied the Quran and seen the evidence so I dont quite know why you are encouraging me to read about Muslim theology, if your benchmark really was the Bible the Quran is not reliable,.

It pains me that you would make judgment of me that I don't trust Jesus, especially as you don't know what is in my heart. I have a very close daily relationship with Jesus Christ, and I am a devout Catholic.

You are not supposed to question my allegiance to my Savior here in CF just because your Bible interpretation disagrees with my saying that some teachings in Islam are true and some are false.

I have tried to explain my perspective to you, which is consistent with Vatican II of the Catholic Church. I have been trying to dialogue with you in a respectful manner. We may have to agree to disagree if you cannot reciprocate.

Peace

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[brightmorningstar]

Steve Bakr,

It pains me that you would make judgment of me that I don't trust Jesus, especially as you don't know what is in my heart.

Your argument doesnt stack up according to what the scriptures say. I have no intention of judging you or your heart.
The texts all speak for themselves. Interpreting the text is based on what the text says not the opposite.
Kindly address the points made.

Again. So when Jesus Christ's NT teaching says the denial of the Son is the spirit of anti-Christ and the denial of the Father God as well, and the Quran says Jesus is not the risen Son of God and not God the Father Son and Holy Spirit, then one cannot believe either the Holy Bible or the Quran by suggesting God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and Allah are the same. The texts tell us they are different.
It is just basic logic.

 

[DCJazz]

Personally I think there should be more options, but I chose the third one. I know that's wrong though. But it's difficult for a person who's focused on hate for most his adolescent life to change to the other side of the spectrum. I think a more accurate option would be I hate Islam, though. Too often do I associate that hate with the people, as well.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Good post DCJazz. It exposes the problem, it is separating the person's views and acts from the person themselves. If one cant do that one cant love a sinner, which is the heart of the gospel.
We may all forget at times that our rejection of Islam isnt to be our rejection of Muslims, but the liberal argument seems to include the idea that any rejection of Islam is a rejection of Muslims; perhaps thats the heart of the reason for the dispute.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Its also quite alarming what is going on here. Offering the argument based on what the scriptures says, both the Holy Bible and the Quran, attracts criticism on the basis its not the Christian faith because a Christian doesnt accept it.
So does Christianity inlcude a God of hate as well as a God of love if a Christian were to say God is hate and if one disagreed with them one would be questioning their faith as a Christian?

 

[steve_bakr]

Its also quite alarming what is going on here. Offering the argument based on what the scriptures says, both the Holy Bible and the Quran, attracts criticism on the basis its not the Christian faith because a Christian doesnt accept it.
So does Christianity inlcude a God of hate as well as a God of love if a Christian were to say God is hate and if one disagreed with them one would be questioning their faith as a Christian?

brightmorningstar,

What would you say about those teachings of Islam--such as helping widows, orphans, and the needy; or conforming your will to the will of God--which are in agreement with Christian faith?

I am repeating myself somewhat from another thread, but the first book I read about Islam was the classic, Mystics of Islam, by R.A. Reynolds. I was struck by the similarities between the Islamic and Christian mystics, and the nearness of Sufism to the spiritual principles of our faith--such as, repentance, serving the needy, conforming our will to the will of our Creator, the battle with the selfish nature of man and its diminishment so that God's light can shine through us, etc.

So you see, it seems if I rejected ALL of Islam's teachings, it would be tantamount to rejecting essential characteristics of our own faith.

I will explain to you the Vatican II Catholic approach to other religions--not to convince you, but to forward a better understanding--ie. that which we respectfully agree to disagree about while maintaining our fellowship as Christians. You see, I enjoy discussing theology but I don't like to debate.

The Catholic view is to acknowledge truth wherever it occurs in other religions. We do not demonize other religions and we do not accept that they are conspiracies of Satan. These other religions have a lot of good teachings, but what they lack is the Greatest Good, which is Christ. That's where the ministry of evangelism comes in.

There is more to say on this important subject but I will leave off after one personal observation. We--I--must always remember that Christ comes first, so that we--I--must not let debate in CF interfere with our personal devotions--ie, taking time to be with the Lord through prayer and Scripture, and listening to the still, small voice inside of us.

Peace of our Lord be with you.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[good brother]

What would you say about those teachings of Islam--such as helping widows, orphans, and the needy; or conforming your will to the will of God--which are in agreement with Christian faith?

I am repeating myself somewhat from another thread, but the first book I read about Islam was the classic, Mystics of Islam, by R.A. Reynolds. I was struck by the similarities between the Islamic and Christian mystics, and the nearness of Sufism to the spiritual principles of our faith--such as, repentance, serving the needy, conforming our will to the will of our Creator, the battle with the selfish nature of man and its diminishment so that God's light can shine through us, etc.

So you see, it seems if I rejected ALL of Islam's teachings, it would be tantamount to rejecting essential characteristics of our own faith.

The Catholic view is to acknowledge truth wherever it occurs in other religions. We do not demonize other religions and we do not accept that they are conspiracies of Satan. These other religions have a lot of good teachings, but what they lack is the Greatest Good, which is Christ. That's where the ministry of evangelism comes in.

Let's say you have a car you want to sell. Let's say I want to buy a car. Let's say you will only accept cold hard cash. Let's say I bring over $5,000 in $100 bills of cold hard cash, well mostly cash. Okay, only $300 in real cash. The rest of the "cash" is actually very well produced counterfeits. Would you accept all of my "cash" because it looks just like the real one. I mean it looks good. How about instead of accepting them for the $100 bills they appear to be, how about accepting them for $50 bills? That's HALF the value! Would you accept them for $20 bills? What about just $1 bills? Why wouldn't you accept them? Because they're worthless, that's why. It doesn't matter how closely the fakes look like the real thing, it doesn't make it any more valid. It doesn't matter if they are counterfeit $100 bills, they are still just as worthless as counterfeit $1bills.

Does rejection of the counterfeit money mean you have rejected all the real monies of the world? No, of course not. It just means that no matter how closely a fake looks like the real thing, it does not hold the value of the real thing. It doesn't even hold a fraction of the value of the real thing (much like me trying to get you to accept the fake $100 bills as worth $1 bills.)

I hope this makes some sense.

In Christ, GB

 

[steve_bakr]

I follow you if you mean that you can accept and acknowledge what is true in other religions and reject what is not true about them, which is what I have been saying.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[good brother]

I follow you if you mean that you can accept and acknowledge what is true in other religions and reject what is not true about them, which is what I have been saying.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

No, I am saying that Jesus Christ is the real true $100 bill. All other attempts to be passed off as a real $100 bills are worthless. I don't care how many things they have in common, if it's not real it's fake and that means it's worthless.

Jesus is the only truth when it comes to religion. O.N.L.Y. Only truth. Many other religions have come along and have copied a great many things from the truths of Jesus. They are only copies. If someone came up to you and said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me." does that make it true? No, not for that individual to put himself in a place reserved for Jesus, who is God. That person saying that statement to you does not mean that it's true across the board. When Jesus said it, it held meaning. When Jesus said it it was true. When Jesus said that, you could take that statement to the bank. If anyone else says it about themselves, it's a straight up lie from the depths of hell.

Just because there are a lot of copiers out there who like to throw in a lesson from the Bible every now and then does not make them a viable source on anything.

If I have two chocolate shakes in in two different glasses that are identical with the exception that one has a tablespoon of rat poison in it, does that mean you could take a drink from either one and be okay? No! Even though both have a whole bunch of good ingredients, the one that has the tiny bit of poison ruins the whole shake.

Does this make sense?

In Christ, GB

 

[steve_bakr]

No, I am saying that Jesus Christ is the real true $100 bill. All other attempts to be passed off as a real $100 bills are worthless. I don't care how many things they have in common, if it's not real it's fake and that means it's worthless.

Jesus is the only truth when it comes to religion. O.N.L.Y. Only truth. Many other religions have come along and have copied a great many things from the truths of Jesus. They are only copies. If someone came up to you and said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me." does that make it true? No, not for that individual to put himself in a place reserved for Jesus, who is God. That person saying that statement to you does not mean that it's true across the board. When Jesus said it, it held meaning. When Jesus said it it was true. When Jesus said that, you could take that statement to the bank. If anyone else says it about themselves, it's a straight up lie from the depths of hell.

Just because there are a lot of copiers out there who like to throw in a lesson from the Bible every now and then does not make them a viable source on anything.

If I have two chocolate shakes in in two different glasses that are identical with the exception that one has a tablespoon of rat poison in it, does that mean you could take a drink from either one and be okay? No! Even though both have a whole bunch of good ingredients, the one that has the tiny bit of poison ruins the whole shake.

Does this make sense?

In Christ, GB

You like analogies, lol. I understand where you are coming from. I used to go to an evangelical church and a calvary chapel before converting to Catholicism.)

Using your analogy about the money, I view the entire amount like another religion. Some of the bills are real and some are fake. I take the real bills--there's no sense throwing away the good money with the bad--as a deposit and tell the buyer to find away to.come up with the full amount. We both agree that the full amount is Jesus Christ. We just have a disagreement about throwing out the good with the bad.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[brightmorningstar]

Steve Bakr,

What would you say about those teachings of Islam--such as helping widows, orphans, and the needy; or conforming your will to the will of God--which are in agreement with Christian faith?

Of course no one is saying any different, quite a few of the teachings of Islam match those of Christ, but so do some of Ghandi&#8217;s but that doesn&#8217;t mean either of them acknowledge the same God.
I cant see why you keep presenting an argument that simply does hold any credibility?
Nor are you really addressing my points, you merely go to another argument you want to make which what you should have addressed also undermines.

The Catholic view is to acknowledge truth wherever it occurs in other religions. We do not demonize other religions and we do not accept that they are conspiracies of Satan. These other religions have a lot of good teachings, but what they lack is the Greatest Good, which is Christ. That's where the ministry of evangelism comes in.

Ok so what does demonising other religions mean? Otherwise I hav no problem with the statement, it doesnt says they are the same gods, it refers to the religion. Sure those other religions have a lot of good teachings but if Islam lacks Jesus Christ then according to the Biblical testimony of Jesus Christ it doesnt have the Father God either. This is the deal breaker that you keep glossing over.