Poll for Christians on Muslims

[brightmorningstar]

Steve Bakr,

Using your analogy about the money, I view the entire amount like another religion. Some of the bills are real and some are fake. I take the real bills--there's no sense throwing away the good money with the bad--as a deposit and tell the buyer to find away to.come up with the full amount. We both agree that the full amount is Jesus Christ. We just have a disagreement about throwing out the good with the bad.

But you arent addressing the analogy good brother has given, you are discussing a variation of that analogy which involves a payment.
If you take the real bill you take Jesus Christ and throw way Islam. If you treat the Islam the same as Jesus Christ you fail to recognise the fake.
I would add, if the truth is 'the big red bus went up the hill', you only have to change one part of that truth for it to no longer be true.
If the big green red bus went up the hill, then it wasn’t the big red bus that went up the hill. You cannot says the green bus and the red bus are the same bus just because they both went up the hill.
And that is the problem with trying to make similarities like the hill as Abraham or simlilar teachings.

 

[steve_bakr]

Steve Bakr,
Of course no one is saying any different, quite a few of the teachings of Islam match those of Christ, but so do some of Ghandi's but that doesn't mean either of them acknowledge the same God.
I cant see why you keep presenting an argument that simply does hold any credibility?
Nor are you really addressing my points, you merely go to another argument you want to make which what you should have addressed also undermines.

Ok so what does demonising other religions mean? Otherwise I hav no problem with the statement, it doesnt says they are the same gods, it refers to the religion. Sure those other religions have a lot of good teachings but if Islam lacks Jesus Christ then according to the Biblical testimony of Jesus Christ it doesnt have the Father God either. This is the deal breaker that you keep glossing over.

Thank you for your post. It seems, then, that our only point of disagreement is on whether different religions worship the same God or different gods.

I understand the point you are making, and you present it in a coherent, logical manner. When you present your view without polemics, I must respect it as a valid viewpoint.

However, I hold the view that there is only One God. I therefore must conclude that the different religions are making reference to the same God, not different gods, even though Christianity is the true religion, which as expressed in the Nicene Creed, has the truest doctrine of Salvation. To borrow a quote from the Upanishads, "I (God) am the Source of all religions."

Allow me to use a metaphor consisting of water representing the Truth (or God) and different colored bottles representing the different religions, whereas Christianity is represented by a clear bottle.

Pour the water of Truth into all the bottles. The water appears to take on the color of each bottle. It is the same water--ie., the same God--seen in the glasses though it appears different in each bottle.

I reserved the clear bottle for Christianity because it represents the Truth and therefore we see the water in its purest form, without the coloration of other doctrines.

I hope that this metaphor helps me to explain that my view is all the religions refer to God, but they have different doctrines about God. Your view is that each bottle--ie., religion--reflects a different God and I will respect that view when it is presented as you have just done.

I hope this helps give you and me a better understanding of our respective views.

Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always.

steve

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[steve_bakr]

Steve Bakr,
But you arent addressing the analogy good brother has given, you are discussing a variation of that analogy which involves a payment.
If you take the real bill you take Jesus Christ and throw way Islam. If you treat the Islam the same as Jesus Christ you fail to recognise the fake.
I would add, if the truth is 'the big red bus went up the hill', you only have to change one part of that truth for it to no longer be true.
If the big green red bus went up the hill, then it wasn't the big red bus that went up the hill. You cannot says the green bus and the red bus are the same bus just because they both went up the hill.
And that is the problem with trying to make similarities like the hill as Abraham or simlilar teachings.

I used my analogy of Islam as the payment because I could represent both the true and the false in it by whether each bill was either real or fake. That way I could accept the truth and reject the false without refusing the entire payment.

But if I was forced to use the analogy of Christianity representing the real bill and Islam representing a fake bill--that is, if you are saying by that analogy that I must choose one and reject the other--then I would accept the real bill and reject the other.

As a matter of fact, I was given that choice to make in reality due to my deep study of Islam and my contact with Sunni Muslims. There is much attraction in the Quran if you hear it recited in the Arabic by a master reciter like Sheik Alafasy. Islamic theology and philosophy present very elegant and attractive arguments. Because I was so deeply involved, I did indeed have to choose what religion to invest my faith in.

As you know, I choose the truth of Jesus Christ as my Savior and my God, which is blasphemy for a Muslim to do. So, to follow your analogy, I did reject Islam, but I still study the Arabic Quran as a matter of interest and an exercise of my mind.

I hope that I have addressed your point in this post.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[brightmorningstar]

Steve Bakr,

I used my analogy of Islam as the payment because I could represent both the true and the false in it by whether each bill was either real or fake. That way I could accept the truth and reject the false without refusing the entire payment.

So the payment was illegal that you accepted because it had fake bills. So the payment wasn’t actually made but you gloss over that.

But if I was forced to use the analogy of Christianity representing the real bill and Islam representing a fake bill--that is, if you are saying by that analogy that I must choose one and reject the other--then I would accept the real bill and reject the other.

Ok so Allah isn’t the same as God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Right? Or have you on purpose been referring to religion rather than the Jesus Christ v Islamic gods which is the subject of the thread and which we have been referring to in our arguments so as to avoid the issue?

As a matter of fact, I was given that choice to make in reality due to my deep study of Islam and my contact with Sunni Muslims. There is much attraction in the Quran if you hear it recited in the Arabic by a master reciter like Sheik Alafasy. Islamic theology and philosophy present very elegant and attractive arguments. Because I was so deeply involved, I did indeed have to choose what religion to invest my faith in.

But with respect, if you are prepared to accept or give fake money to a payment then it is no surprise that you see some value in the fake.

As you know, I choose the truth of Jesus Christ as my Savior and my God,

No, I am saying one isn’t choosing the truth of Jesus Christ’s teaching that the denial of Him means the denial of the Father (1 John ) if one then also accepts as reliable the source that makes that very denial.

 

[steve_bakr]

Steve Bakr,
So the payment was illegal that you accepted because it had fake bills. So the payment wasn't actually made but you gloss over that.
Ok so Allah isn't the same as God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Right? Or have you on purpose been referring to religion rather than the Jesus Christ v Islamic gods which is the subject of the thread and which we have been referring to in our arguments so as to avoid the issue?

But with respect, if you are prepared to accept or give fake money to a payment then it is no surprise that you see some value in the fake.

No, I am saying one isn't choosing the truth of Jesus Christ's teaching that the denial of Him means the denial of the Father (1 John ) if one then also accepts as reliable the source that makes that very
# # #
I honestly thought that my post was making concessions that would satisfy you. It seems your intent is to argue with everything I say.

Clarify--say more clearly--that you are saying I do not accept the truth of Jesus Christ after I just gave testimony that I do, and I will refer it to the Moderator.

We are approaching the end of our discussion, as I have tried to be conciliatory with you and you reject it. This will be my last post to you unless you acknowledge my belief in Jesus Christ.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[brightmorningstar]

Steve Bakr,

Thank you for your post. It seems, then, that our only point of disagreement is on whether different religions worship the same God or different gods.

Well they either do or dont, so its a debate about which of us is right.

However, I hold the view that there is only One God.

Which? God the Father, Son and Holy spirit as in the Bible or Allah who isn’t Father, Son or Holy Spirit, in Islam?

I therefore must conclude that the different religions are making reference to the same God, not different gods,

But they are making references to different gods, and they are describing two different gods. One of which says that the others description isnt God. )

Allow me to use a metaphor consisting of water representing the Truth (or God) and different colored bottles representing the different religions, whereas Christianity is represented by a clear bottle.

Pour the water of Truth into all the bottles.

Let me stop you there. You cant put the living water of God the Father Son and Holy Spirit into the Islamic bottle as it has Allah who isnt Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[brightmorningstar]

sorry duplicate post

 

[IndieVisible]

I love the sinner hate the sin

 

[good brother]

Earlier with the analogy of the water being th truth and the bottles of different colors representing different religions, let me change it up to demonstrate what I feel is a closer to truth analogy using water and bottles.

Imagine you have four crystal clear bottles before you. Everyone of them is spotless and polished to a brilliant shine. Each bottle is filled with fluid that appears to be identical. There are four crystal clear polished bottles, each with a crystal clear fluid inside.

Bottle #1 has hydrochloric acid as it's contents.

Bottle #2 has sulfuric acid in it.

Bottle #3 has water in it.

Bottle #4 has isopropyl alcohol in it.

Which bottle is safe for human consumption? Only bottle #3. The rest have the same outward appearance as #3, but only one it safe.

That's really what it's like. It is not as though all religions contain God just bottled differently any more than saying that all soda cans contain Mt Dew, that all shoes fit size 13 feet, or that all cars have the same engine. I hope this helps.

In Christ, GB

 

[woodpecker]

19We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one. (1 John 5)
---------

The fact is, you are either serving God or you are serving Satan.

You choose who you serve every time you make a decision, or whom you choose to worship (in this case Allah).

any other religion, but Christianity, is worshiping the evil one, whether they know this or not.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Steve Bakr,

I honestly thought that my post was making concessions that would satisfy you. It seems your intent is to argue with everything I say.

1. Neither Christianity nor Islam, nor The Holy Bible nor the Quran/Haddith are chnaged by what you and I might agree here. We can however test what we are saying against them.
2. Obviously, if you cant see/acknowledge the difference then every argument will be wrong.

Clarify--say more clearly--that you are saying I do not accept the truth of Jesus Christ after I just gave testimony that I do, and I will refer it to the Moderator.

You are welcome to. Let me clarify
I am saying one cant be choosing the truth of Jesus Christ's teaching which says the denial of Him means the denial of the Father (1 John ) if one then also accepts as the same God what denies Jesus Christ as the risen Son. How can one?

 

[steve_bakr]

I'm a Catholic and Catholic teaching is that Muslims worship the God of Abraham, so I am bound by that teaching.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[steve_bakr]

Steve Bakr,


[*]Neither Christianity nor Islam, nor The Holy Bible nor the Quran/Haddith are chnaged by what you and I might agree here. We can however test what we are saying against them.
[*]Obviously, if you cant see/acknowledge the difference then every argument will be wrong.


You are welcome to. Let me clarify
I am saying one cant be choosing the truth of Jesus Christ's teaching which says the denial of Him means the denial of the Father (1 John ) if one then also accepts as the same God what denies Jesus Christ as the risen Son. How can one?

Jesus Christ is my Savior, so you can be judged by having denied that.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[steve_bakr]

Steve Bakr,


[*]Neither Christianity nor Islam, nor The Holy Bible nor the Quran/Haddith are chnaged by what you and I might agree here. We can however test what we are saying against them.
[*]Obviously, if you cant see/acknowledge the difference then every argument will be wrong.


You are welcome to. Let me clarify
I am saying one cant be choosing the truth of Jesus Christ's teaching which says the denial of Him means the denial of the Father (1 John ) if one then also accepts as the same God what denies Jesus Christ as the risen Son. How can one?

God is my Judge; and you are not He.

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[steve_bakr]

19We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one. (1 John 5)
---------

The fact is, you are either serving God or you are serving Satan.

You choose who you serve every time you make a decision, or whom you choose to worship (in this case Allah).

any other religion, but Christianity, is worshiping the evil one, whether they know this or not.

Excuse me, I am not a Muslim. I am a Catholic Christian

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

 

[brightmorningstar]

Steve Bakr,

Jesus Christ is my Savior, so you can be judged by having denied that.

I think you need to address the point made, you seem to be suggesting that my Lord and saviour Jesus Christ is not the truth He claims. Explain yourself.

I am saying one cant be choosing the truth of Jesus Christ's teaching which says the denial of Him means the denial of the Father (1 John ) if one then also accepts as the same God what denies Jesus Christ as the risen Son of God. (the Quran) How can one?

You asked for clarification, now you have it kindly address it.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Steve Bakr,

Excuse me, I am not a Muslim. I am a Catholic Christian

no-one is saying that, what we are pointing out is your view on the same god, is Islamic, not Christian.

29:46 And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

The Bible doesnt say that. The Bible says the denial of the Son is a denial of the father God as well. (1 John 2 & 4) and you have been shown the Surahs that deny Jesus Christ the risen son of God and God the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Keffiyeh]

Love your neighbour

 

[brightmorningstar]

Love Your neighbour is exactly the right answer, we are to love Muslims, not Islam.

 

[steve_bakr]

Steve Bakr,

I think you need to address the point made, you seem to be suggesting that my Lord and saviour Jesus Christ is not the truth He claims. Explain yourself.

I am saying one cant be choosing the truth of Jesus Christ's teaching which says the denial of Him means the denial of the Father (1 John ) if one then also accepts as the same God what denies Jesus Christ as the risen Son of God. (the Quran) How can one?

You asked for clarification, now you have it kindly address it.

I have addressed the issue. I have said that the three Abrahamic religions all address the God of Abraham. That's simply Religion 101. I can't change that fact.

As has been said, Judaism rejects Christ much more so than Islam, for Islam shows more respect for Jesus than Judaism does. But we commonly say that Judaism refers to the same God of Abraham that Christianity refers to. We do not say that the God of Judaism is not the God of Christianity.

I also told you that I am bound to the Catholic faith, which teaches that Christians and "Mohammedans" both acknowledge the God of Abraham.

Peace

"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)