Poll as a born again Christian do you still sin

[Dave-W]

.if we were to apply the verse like your using it then we would have no right to ever preach the gospel. Something which we are commanded to do(though probably less then 1%of church attendees ever speak the Gospel to another human)

I am going to present some things on the Great Commission that you probably have not heard or considered before. Let us use the Matthew version:

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.​

First off: "Therefore go..." That has been taught that either we ourselves must go (change our geographic location) to preach the gospel, or we support those who do. Rather, it should be tied to this part of the first paragraph of the Shema:

Deuteronomy 6:7
You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up.​

IOW, as you go about your normal life.

The second point is WHO specifically this command was given to: JEWISH believers. (that is not to say that gentile believers are excluded) That is entirely in keeping with the instructions all thru the OT that the Jewish people were to be a light to the nations (gentiles) That job and calling (responsibility) did not change with the New Covenant.

 

[JerseyChristianSuperstar]

Something that’s always bothered me is there are a few verses in the Bible that say that a person who is born again will not or cannot sin.

“We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not; but he that was begotten of God keepeth himself, and the evil one toucheth him not.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:18‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭ASV‬‬

These struck me as pretty strong evidence because even looking into the Greek I can’t find anything indicating that this is a mistranslation. Even looking into the definition of the Greek words I can’t find any indication that they can have an alternate meaning. Furthermore when I look into verses that say we all still sin they are worded in a way that could be referring to past sin and possibly not future or present sins. My heart tells me that all Christians will still sin no matter how hard we try not to. I’ve met many many extremely devoted Christians and all of them admit they still sin. I’ve actually never met a Christian in person who claims they don’t still sin. I find it very hard to believe that I’ve never met anyone who is born again. I have really tried very hard to devote my life to Christ. I’m always studying and trying to learn from other Christians who have different perspectives and no matter how hard I try to achieve this goal I fail. Now I don’t steal, lie, cheat, drink alcohol, harm or attack others, etc. Mostly my sins are things like doubt, worry, complaining, frustration, and occasionally pride. Maybe some light boasting in there as well. I believe that everyone will sin even after being born again. I believe there is a difference between being a slave to sin and occasionally stumbling in sin. As Christians we are no longer a slave to sin we are no longer controlled by our sinful nature but we are not perfect and will still stumble from time to time. This is what I believe. So I decided to create this poll to see what percentage of Christians claim they don’t sin and to perhaps see more perspectives on this subject to see if there’s some evidence I’m missing to help me better understand whether I’m just truly not born again or that everyone sins whether they are born again or not. In the event this becomes a debate between those who claim not to sin and those who claim they do sin I will remind everyone please refrain from saying that a person is not a Christian or is not born again as it is against the forum rules.

King Solomon, the wisest man in history apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, himself said there is a not a just man on Earth who does what is right and never wins. We all still sin, even after our conversion, even when we grow in holiness.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are you saying a prerequisite to joining the group of 12 was to believe Jesus was the Messiah?
They all seemed to be learning as they went along yet like we find in John 6 many disciples turned away at that time so did they believe?
Are you saying if Judas had repented of his deed and fallen on his face before the Messiah, Christ would have not forgiven him?

No Jesus chose them before they chose Him. Each of them were chosen for a specific task. Just as Paul was chosen before he believed. If Judas had repented he would’ve undoubtedly been saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Add : i think your poll is far too narrow in scope and does allow for a more full understanding of the scriptures.

How so?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'll bet you we all lie, steal and cheat.
Think about it really well.

But anyway, yes, of course we all sin...those who believe they don't anymore don't seem to understand how holy God is.

We could only do our best.
Some really good posts on this thread.

I respectfully disagree. I don’t think everyone stumbles in those particular sins.

 

[BNR32FAN]

True.
People do seem to like implying that Jesus failed on the cross and rose again having failed to set us free from sin. But .they lie.

The problem is not sins power the problem is people dont want to obey God and deny themselves and stop doing sin.
The problem is a complete lack of repentance.

I wouldn’t say all sin is a complete lack of repentance. There are some sins we commit unwillingly. Frustration, anger, doubt, worry, complaining. These can often happen as a reaction in the heat of the moment.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I respectfully disagree. I don’t think everyone stumbles in those particular sins.

We're talking about
Lying
Stealing
Cheating

Lying:
Have you ever told a white lie?
Have you ever lied to avoid an argument?
Have you ever lied to avoid hurting someone?
Have you ever lied to avoid a 15 minute explanation?

Stealing:
Have you ever stolen anyone's time? Been late to appointments,,,been late so that others have had to wait for you...

Have you ever stolen someone's reputation?
Perhaps just by LISTENING to gossip.

Have you ever cheated?
There were too many flowers in your arrangement...
Did you return them to the store? Or did you just think it easier on everyone to keep them and not cause problems?

I've done all of the above.
I admire anyone who hasn't.

And,,,I think we all sin more than we think we do.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I am going to present some things on the Great Commission that you probably have not heard or considered before. Let us use the Matthew version:

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.​

First off: "Therefore go..." That has been taught that either we ourselves must go (change our geographic location) to preach the gospel, or we support those who do. Rather, it should be tied to this part of the first paragraph of the Shema:

Deuteronomy 6:7
You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up.​

IOW, as you go about your normal life.

The second point is WHO specifically this command was given to: JEWISH believers. (that is not to say that gentile believers are excluded) That is entirely in keeping with the instructions all thru the OT that the Jewish people were to be a light to the nations (gentiles) That job and calling (responsibility) did not change with the New Covenant.

Amen to that!
Some believe we are ALL Apostles.
Some are called to teach or to preach, but not eveyone.
In fact, I'd say that some should NOT witness due to their personality which could be the cause of an argument because it might be too forceful.

The New Covenant carries that forward... There are priests, pastors, evangelists, etc...who are specifically called to preach and teach the Word of God.

 

[Dave-W]

In fact, I'd say that some should NOT witness due to their personality which could be the cause of an argument because it might be too forceful.

In a previous congregation I led a class in Christian Foundations and had a few extras added in that the pastor wanted; including a unit on the Great Commission. At the time I saw 3 different versions and lined them up this way:

Acts 1 - "BE MY witnesses" by living a godly lifestyle.
Mark 16 - "preach the gospel to all creation" Share the good news
Matt 28 - "Make disciples.. teaching them ..." Train them up in the Word

 

[GodsGrace101]

In a previous congregation I led a class in Christian Foundations and had a few extras added in that the pastor wanted; including a unit on the Great Commission. At the time I saw 3 different versions and lined them up this way:

Acts 1 - "BE MY witnesses" by living a godly lifestyle.
Mark 16 - "preach the gospel to all creation" Share the good news
Matt 28 - "Make disciples.. teaching them ..." Train them up in the Word

Very nice.
What do you think of Mathew 28?
Can anyone do this, or is it a special calling?
I've tried to do this with my children and my daughter came to know Jesus when she was about 14.
I doubt I can do this with anyone else...
Seems to me the word "charisma" comes into play.

 

[Dave-W]

What do you think of Mathew 28?
Can anyone do this, or is it a special calling?

What we know as discipleship is not even close to what our Lord was talking about and what His disciples understood.

It was a well established institution at the time (by the Rabbis) and has been documented in the Talmuds.

To the Rabbis, it was a select few that did it. But I think Matt 28 puts the onus on the evangelist to do it.

http://heartofgodisrael.org/messianic-messages/discipleship-is-jewish/

 

[BNR32FAN]

We're talking about
Lying
Stealing
Cheating

Lying:
Have you ever told a white lie?
Have you ever lied to avoid an argument?
Have you ever lied to avoid hurting someone?
Have you ever lied to avoid a 15 minute explanation?

Stealing:
Have you ever stolen anyone's time? Been late to appointments,,,been late so that others have had to wait for you...

Have you ever stolen someone's reputation?
Perhaps just by LISTENING to gossip.

Have you ever cheated?
There were too many flowers in your arrangement...
Did you return them to the store? Or did you just think it easier on everyone to keep them and not cause problems?

I've done all of the above.
I admire anyone who hasn't.

And,,,I think we all sin more than we think we do.

Rahab was counted as being righteous by lying in order to save the Israelite spies. I believe it is the motive that constitutes sin. Sin is transgression against God. If a person lies for good then it is not transgression against God. Remember we are under the purpose of which the law was intended not necessarily under the letter of the law.

As for being late I really don’t think that is stealing someone’s time. I believe stealing is a conscience decision not a circumstantial situation. Remember sin is about defiance against God. If your on your way to meet someone and you get caught in traffic you didn’t defy God. Now perhaps if you were willfully late. I think a lot depends on the circumstances.

 

[RaymondG]

Looking on the vote it looks like we have 2 extremely holy people who must live in a different world to rest of us.

I believe you are right. The path is that found by few.

 

[Archivist]

Rahab was counted as being righteous by lying in order to save the Israelite spies. I believe it is the motive that constitutes sin. Sin is transgression against God. If a person lies for good then it is not transgression against God. Remember we are under the purpose of which the law was intended not necessarily under the letter of the law.

I would agree. I remember reading that as Captain Mervyn Bennion of the USS West Virginia lay dying during the Pearl Harbor attack, mess attendant Doris Miller kept assuring him that the sinking ship's guns were still firing. A lie as the sinking ship's main guns were not firing, but it brought comfort to a dying man.

As for being late I really don’t think that is stealing someone’s time. I believe stealing is a conscience decision not a circumstantial situation. Remember sin is about defiance against God. If your on your way to meet someone and you get caught in traffic you didn’t defy God. Now perhaps if you were willfully late. I think a lot depends on the circumstances.

I think GodsGrace101 was referencing being purposely late.

I still think that many of our sins are not what we do, but what we fail to do.

 

[RaymondG]

It is those who admit to sinning and not being able to stop who also push their inabilities on others.....e.g. I cant stop, so you cant either. And they seem to get angry at those who believe that It is possible for God to deliver anyone from sin. Why is this?

I havent seen one say they were without sin....yet the simple implication that it is possible seem to drive some mad. If I say we all have to sin, I get many likes and praise....If you say we can go without sinning, once born from above, you get ridiculed.

Yet exclaiming that you cant stop sinning, leads one to not try.....and exclaiming that you can leads one to continue to try...

Give me a good reason why a Christian would be against one exclaiming that it is possible for you to go without sin with God......and one for one exclaiming that you wont be able to stop sinning in your life time.?

And why does the exclamation of sinlessness with God cause such dissension? I;ve felt nothing negative about those who said they sin and will continue....and I agree with all of them. I only disagree that others have to follow suite.

Why cant those who feel they need to sin, be free to sin, and those who feel God can delivery them from sin and death, feel free to strive for this deliverance?

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

 

[bling]

This also is true. But we are talking about believers and if they are believers then they believe Jesus has set them free and they walk in that freedom and cease from doing acts known to be sinful.

If they do not cease then they do not actually believe in Jesus yet
OR
They are simply unrepentant

I think you are making to much of an assumption about "all" baptized believers.
Lots of sincere baptized believers are not taught about the power to not sin available to them and they may even be taught they will go on sinning because they are still in the flesh.
We are taught about forgiveness, repenting, confessing, and what sin is, but not about the Holy Spirit indwelling and what all He can do.

 

[RaymondG]

I think you are making to much of an assumption about "all" baptized believers.
Lots of sincere baptized believers are not taught about the power to not sin available to them and they may even be taught they will go on sinning because they are still in the flesh.
We are taught about forgiveness, repenting, confessing, and what sin is, but not about the Holy Spirit indwelling and what all He can do.

Also note that all believers arent filled with the spirit. There was a group in the bible who believed, but knew nothing of the spirit until hands were laid.

"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."

 

[BNR32FAN]

If you say we can go without sinning, once born from above, you get ridiculed.

Which post is ridiculing those who say we can refrain from all sin?

Yet exclaiming that you cant stop sinning, leads one to not try

It seems everyone here is trying. Your only assuming they’re not brother.

Give me a good reason why a Christian would be against one exclaiming that it is possible for you to go without sin with God......and one for one exclaiming that you wont be able to stop sinning in your life time.?

That’s exactly what we are doing here. Examining the scriptures trying to determine if it is possible or not. I see a few posts saying it is possible and I don’t see anyone ridiculing them. If I’ve missed a post please quote it.

Why cant those who feel they need to sin, be free to sin, and those who feel God can delivery them from sin and death, feel free to strive for this deliverance?

I don’t understand this question. I don’t think anyone feels they need to sin it appears they are unable to stop sinning completely. I don’t see any posts here that suggest a person cannot feel free to strive for deliverance. Actually I see everyone striving for deliverance.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This also is true. But we are talking about believers and if they are believers then they believe Jesus has set them free and they walk in that freedom and cease from doing acts known to be sinful.

If they do not cease then they do not actually believe in Jesus yet
OR
They are simply unrepentant

Peter believed enough to walk on water and received the revelation from God that Jesus was the Son of God then later willfully denied Jesus 3 times. But he repented and Jesus forgave him. I don’t believe Peter ever ceased to be a believer. I believe he was overcome by fear. Many years later Peter died refusing to deny Jesus. His sin taught him a valuable lesson.

 

[bling]

No Jesus chose them before they chose Him. Each of them were chosen for a specific task. Just as Paul was chosen before he believed. If Judas had repented he would’ve undoubtedly been saved.

God and Christ would know beforehand (this is all in human time frame) that Judas would betray Christ and commit suicide, but do you think God/Christ would chose people because they will fail?

There is a great deal for us to learn in our mentoring/discipling others, choosing a group, teaching method, dealing with the masses and individuals who fail us along the way, by studying Christ’s ministry.

When we put a group together it is because they can work together and meet the other “requirements”, but we do not know if they will grow or leave us. We should not be surprised if some leave the Church and do not workout, since that happened to Christ also.

We also learn how God/Christ works and how different it is from the way we work. If we knew a person was going to sin we would try to stop them and if we knew they would fall away down the road we would treat them differently, but that is not the way God/Christ works. God stopping a person from “a” sin does not help them to come to the point of accepting His forgiveness for their sins. God/Christ’s job is to do all they can to provide the very best situation for those who still can choose to accept (Fulfill their earthly objective). It does not matter God/Christ knows from the beginning they will not accept their charity (forgiveness), since that is up to the individual’s free will choice. The individual can never complain at judgement “God did not give me the opportunity to succeed”, because He did.