Poll as a born again Christian do you still sin

[JimBeta]

I just try to do what the Holy Spirit asks me. I think if we can succeed in that which He asks us we already achieve greater things that we were able to do before we got the Holy Spirit. It just depends on what you look at as great things. A sinner, who sins less all of a sudden, is a great thing in my opinion. I do not need to heal anyone, I need to be healed myself. I do not need to perform miracles, Jesus Christ accepted me which was a miracle itself. I do not need to cast out demons out of others, I need to be able to recognize the different spirits myself. I don’t know about what you believe are great things, but Jesus said Himself that who wanted to be the greatest, should serve another. So, you want to do great things? Serve another and be like Jesus. Then you will be the greatest of all in the Kingdom.

But to be honest, I find it a miracle that I try to work on my sins now and try to sin less. Years I believed I could not do that, that it was not possible and so, I did not try a lot either. But now I do try and sometimes I do not sin while I would have sinned in the past. I think such things are greater things then all the miracles that some false prophets do. But that is just my opinion

 

[JacksBratt]

I have seen this argued many times... "do we stop sinning" or "are you a Christian if you still sin"?

If you want to know if you are still sinning, of if you believe that you aren't, just get a child to follow you around and point out when you sin. Or, better still, an atheist who you are trying to lead to Christ... Tell them that you don't sin anymore because you are a Christian... they will be certain to have no trouble to point out your sins...

How arrogant of us to say that we can live without sinning. Take a good look at your life, your daily routine, what happens if something goes wrong.. you're late for something, you hit your thumb with a hammer.... the list goes on..

However... we can be assured, that even though we still sin and it's impossible not to:

Romans 8 King James Version (KJV)
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Don't let Satan keep you enslaved by something that Christ's blood has freed you from.

 

[bling]

Of course you do. Being born again doesn't make us perfect. We are still human. But being born again does put us in contact with the healing power of God, so that over time we will be healed in many ways, and sin less as a result.

What causes it to be over "time"?
Why are you limiting God's ability?
Is the indwelling Holy Spirit not already perfect?
What part am I playing in all this and why can I not play it sooner?

 

[JimBeta]

We are not limiting Gods ability, we are looking at the fact we still have a free will. Why do you think Jesus asks us to change our thinking? Its one thing to have the Holy SPirit, but its another thing to obey Him.

 

[bling]

Even though we are born again and are forgiven we still have the sin nature, and yes, we do sin.

Romans 7

14We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not desire, I admit that the Law is good. 17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s Law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

This discussion on Romans 7 verses 14-24 are typical of most of the 24 commentaries I read. Two did use the approach that Paul was speaking of his previous life as a non Christian and gave some (what I call) soft evidence to support the idea. Mostly just saying, how it would be inconsistent to the rest of Romans especially chp. 8 to say that was the pitiful state Paul was in at the time. I was interested in what hard evidence you came up with that explains why Paul would switch from the past tense to the present tense in these 10 verses?



Similar to this Roman section on (the war and victory over sin) is Mark’s whole Gospel of Christ’s war against satan’s follows of this world”.



The Gospel of Mark was mimicking the messages that were sent out by the Roman generals after winning a great battle. These messages went with messengers to dramatically present the battle with the victory at the end, to the cheers of the crowd. They were always in the present tense and we have some copies that were written in stone under the battle monuments that were spread throughout Rome. The Gospel of Mark is written in the style of these Victory Messages sent by the Roman General to the Roman Empire and Mark’s is very much a victory message. Do you think, Paul in keep with the Roman culture of the day, would have written His victorious battle over sin in the present tense to the Romans in Rome?



It is called the “historic present tense”, by scholars and would fit what Paul was saying to the Romans.



This topic and the use of Romans 7: 14-24 come up a lot and a lot has been written on it.



The context helps and you need to address these questions:



1. When did Paul learn about “coveting”?

2. When did this problem start for Paul?

3. Does Paul continue in the misery and what would relief this misery?

4. Is “just being forgiven” a good solution to the problem?

5. When did Paul obtain the solution?







A lot is made of the fact Paul switched to the present tense in these verses, but was there a reason that the Roman reader might pick up on? We are reading other peoples mail to Romans in Rome during the first century, so what would be the best way to communicate a huge victory over sin to them?







What Mark describes in his Gospel is a great battle with a climatic victory with Christ rising in the “historic present tense”.

What Paul is describing in Romans 7: 14-24 is a great battle and final climatic victory over sin in the “historic present tense”.

Sin has purpose for the nonbeliever, but what “purpose” does it have in the believer life?

When Deity dwelled unquenched in a human (Christ) it did not sin, so does deity dwell within Christians, so the problem is really the quenching of the Spirit?

 

[TuxAme]

If you don't sin after your baptism, you're either dead (because something happened immediately after the sacrament was performed), mere moments have passed since the sacrament was completed, or any other number of things- but to never sin again after baptism is something the New Testament authors themselves would have been amazed by. Even Paul, who we know was baptized, admitted that he sinned. Jesus Himself breathed on the apostles and allowed them to share in His ministry of forgiving sins, which we still fall into well into our Christian lives as we are instructed to confess our sins to one another.

So, yes, I still sin, as does everyone else.

 

[Lost4words]

1 John 1:8
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

End of thread /

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is this addressing my comments in post 15?
Peter did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit at the time of his denial.

True but he did have the guidance of Jesus who is God who guarded and protected the 11 faithful apostles by His power so they would not be lost.

“During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:12‬

 

[ToBeLoved]

Something that’s always bothered me is there are a few verses in the Bible that say that a person who is born again will not or cannot sin.

“We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not; but he that was begotten of God keepeth himself, and the evil one toucheth him not.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:18‬ ‭ASV‬‬

I'm not really liking that translation ASV for this verse. As a matter of fact, I think this translation is super bad.

1 John‬ ‭5:18‬
We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.


Here is what the most popular commentaries say, it may open up the discussion.

I'll highlight in red the parts I find interesting.


Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

(3) SOME PRACTICAL POINTS RECAPITULATED (1John 5:18-21).

(a)God's sons do not sin (1John 5:18).

St. John refers back to "that ye may know" in 1John 5:13, and sums up three points from former portions of the Epistle, describing the true consciousness of the Christian. Each begins with "We know."

(18) Sinneth not.--There is no reason to supply "unto death." (Comp. the Note on 1John 3:9.) St. John means strongly to insist, in this the solemn close of his Letter, that the true ideal Christian frame is the absence of wilful sin. Stumbles there may be, even such as need the prayers of friends, but intentional lawlessness there cannot be.

But he that is begotten of God keepeth himself.--Rather, he that is begotten of God keepeth him: that is, the Son of God preserves him. (Comp. John 6:39; John 10:28; John 17:12; John 17:15.)

And that wicked one toucheth him not.--The last mention of the devil was in 1John 3:10. The devil and his angels attack, but cannot influence so long as the Christian abides in Christ. (Comp. 1Peter 5:8; Ephesians 6:11; Revelation 3:10.)

(3 b.) Personal assurance that we are God's sons (1John 5:19).

Next after the cardinal point that righteousness is the characteristic of the new birth comes the necessity that the Christian should make up his mind that he has been, or is being, born again, and is really different from the world. The proofs would be seen in 1John 1:6; 1John 2:3; 1John 2:5; 1John 2:29; 1John 3:9; 1John 3:14; 1John 3:19; 1John 3:24; 1John 4:7; 1John 4:13; 1John 4:15; 1John 5:1; 1John 5:10.

(19) The whole world lieth in wickedness.--Rather, the wicked one. There is a constant danger lest Christians should forget this. (Comp. Galatians 1:4.)

(3 c.) Personal assurance of the Incarnation, of the gift of the spiritual sense, and of abiding in the God of Truth through His Son (1John 5:20).

The series ends with a climax: the Son is indeed come; He gave us the faculty of seeing the true God; and in that Almighty Being we actually are. through the Son. The greatest fact of all to St. John's mind is that his Friend and Master of sixty years ago was the very Word made flesh. (Comp. 1John 1:1-2; 1John 2:13; 1John 2:22-23; 1John 3:5; 1John 3:8; 1John 3:16; 1John 3:23; 1John 4:2; 1John 4:9-10; 1John 5:1; 1John 5:5; 1John 5:9; 1John 5:11.)

(20) And hath given us an understanding.--Comp. Acts 26:18; 1Corinthians 2:12-15; Ephesians 1:18. This spiritual faculty of discernment was one of the gifts of that Spirit which Christ was to send. (Comp. 1John 2:20; 1John 2:27; John 14:26; John 16:13.)

Him that is true.--The personality of God. Amid all the deceptions and fluctuations of the world, St. John felt, with the most absolute and penetrating and thankful conviction, that the followers of Christ were rooted and grounded in perfect, unshakable, unassailable truth. This could not be unless they were resting on the living Son and holding fast to Him.

This is the true God, and eternal life.--A most solemn and emphatic crown to the whole Epistle. "This God, as seen in His Son, is the true God." If the Word had not been God, God could not have been seen in Him. "And God, seen in His Son, is eternal life." This is only another way of putting John 17:3. (Comp. 1John 5:11-13.) To make "this is the true God" refer only to the Son is equally admissible by grammar, but hardly suits the argument so well.

(4) LAST WARNING (1John 5:21).

(21) Little children, keep yourselves from idols.--This parting word is suggested by the thought of "the true God." Every scheme of thought, every object of affection, which is not of Him, is a rival of His empire, a false god, a delusive appearance only, without solidity or truth. We cannot conclude better than in the words of Ebrard: "This idea is a general and very comprehensive one: it embraces all things and everything which may be opposed to the God revealed in Christ and to His worship in spirit and in truth. Pre-eminently, therefore, it embraces the delusive and vain idols of the Corinthian Gnosticism, whether ancient or modern; but it includes also the idols and false mediators of superstition, to whom the confidence is transferred which is due only to God in Christ--be their name Madonna, or saints, or Pope, or priesthood, or good works, or pictures, or office, or church, or sacraments. The One Being in whom we have 'the life eternal' is Christ. . . . And this Christ we possess through the Spirit of God, whose marks and tokens are not priestly vestments, but faith and love. In this meaning, the Apostle's cry sounds forth through all the ages, in the ears of all Christians, 'LITTLE CHILDREN, KEEP YOURSELVES FROM IDOLS!' The holiest things may become a snare if their letter is regarded and not their spirit. Every Christian Church has a tendency to worship its own brazen serpents. Happy are they who have a Hezekiah to call them Nehushtan!"


Pulpit Commentary

Verses 18-21. - With three solemn asseverations and one equally solemn charge the Epistle is brought to a close. "Can we be certain of any principles in ethics? St. John declares that we can. He says that he has not been making probable guesses about the grounds of human actions, the relations of man to God, the nature of God himself. These are firings that he knows. Nay, he is not content with claiming this knowledge himself. He uses the plural pronoun; he declares that his disciples, his little children, know that which he knows" (Maurice). Verse 18. - We know; οἴδαμεν, as in 1 John 3:2, 14, and John 21:24, which should be compared with this passage. These expressions of Christian certitude explain the undialectical character of St. John's Epistles as compared with those of St. Paul. What need to argue and prove when both he and his readers already knew and believed? We must have "begotten" in both clauses, as in the Revised Version, not "born" in one and "begotten" in the other, as in the Authorized Version. In the Greek there is a change of tense ὁ γεγεννημένος and ὁ γεννηθείς, but no change of verb. The whole should run, "We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not, but the Begotten of God keepeth him." For the perfect participle, comp. 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:1, 4; 1 John 3:6, 8: it expresses him who has come to be, and still continues to be, a son of God. The aorist participle occurs nowhere else in St. John: it expresses him who, without relation to time past or present, is the Son of God. The reading αὐτόν is preferable to ἑαυτόν. The Vulgate has conservat eum, not conserver seipsum, which Calvin adopts. The eternal Son of the Father preserves the frail children of the Father from the common foe, so that the evil one toucheth them not. The verb for "touch ἅπτεσθαι is the same as in "Touch me not" (John 20:17). In both cases "touch" is somewhat too weak a rendering; the meaning is rather, "lay hold of," "hold fast." The Magdalene wished, not merely to touch, but to hold the Lord fast, so as to have his bodily presence continually. And here the meaning is that, though the evil one may attack the children of God, yet he cannot get them into his power.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

We know that whosoever is born of God,.... Who is regenerated by his Spirit and grace, and quickened by his power; who has Christ formed in him, and is made a partaker of the divine nature, and has every grace implanted in him:

sinneth not; the sin unto death; nor does he live in sin, or is under the power and dominion of it, though he does not live without it; See Gill on 1 John 3:9;

but he that is begotten of God; the Vulgate Latin version reads, "the generation of God keeps or preserves him"; that is, that which is born in him, the new man, the principle of grace, or seed of God in him, keeps him from notorious crimes, particularly from sinning the sin unto death, and from the governing power of all other sins; but all other versions, as well as copies, read as we do, and as follows:

keepeth himself; not that any man can keep himself by his own power and strength; otherwise what mean the petitions of the saints to God that he would keep them, and even of Christ himself to God for them on the same account? God only is the keeper of his people, and they are only kept in safety whom he keeps, and it is by his power they are kept; but the sense is, that a believer defends himself by taking to him the whole armour of God, and especially the shield of faith, against the corruptions of his own heart, the snares of the world, and particularly the temptations of Satan:

and that wicked one toucheth him not; he cannot come at him so as to wound him to the heart, or destroy that principle of life that is in him, or so as to overcome and devour him; he may tempt him, and sift him, and buffet him, and greatly afflict and grieve him, but he can not touch his life, or hurt him with the second death; nay, sometimes the believer is so enabled to wield the shield of faith, or to hold up Christ the shield by faith, and turn it every way in such a manner, that Satan, who is here meant by the wicked one, because he is notoriously so, cannot come near him, nor in with him; cannot work upon him at all with his temptations, nor in the least hurt his peace, joy, and comfort: the saints know their perseverance from the promises of God and declarations of Christ; Psalm 125:1.


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

18. (1Jo 3:9.)

We know—Thrice repeated emphatically, to enforce the three truths which the words preface, as matters of the brethren's joint experimental knowledge. This 1Jo 5:18 warns against abusing 1Jo 5:16, 17, as warranting carnal security.

whosoever—Greek, "every one who." Not only advanced believers, but every one who is born again, "sinneth not."

he that is begotten—Greek aorist, "has been (once for all in past time) begotten of God"; in the beginning of the verse it is perfect. "Is begotten," or "born," as a continuing state.

keepeth himself—The Vulgate translates, "The having been begotten of God keepeth HIM" (so one of the oldest manuscripts reads): so Alford. Literally, "He having been begotten of God (nominative pendent), it (the divine generation implied in the nominative) keepeth him." So 1Jo 3:9, "His seed remaineth in him." Still, in English Version reading, God's working by His Spirit inwardly, and man's working under the power of that Spirit as a responsible agent, is what often occurs elsewhere. That God must keep us, if we are to keep ourselves from evil, is certain. Compare Joh 17:15 especially with this verse.

that wicked one toucheth him not—so as to hurt him. In so far as he realizes his regeneration-life, the prince of this world hath nothing in him to fasten his deadly temptations on, as in Christ's own case. His divine regeneration has severed once for all his connection with the prince of this world.


Matthew Henry Commentary

5:18-21 All mankind are divided into two parties or dominions; that which belongs to God, and that which belongs to the wicked one. True believers belong to God: they are of God, and from him, and to him, and for him; while the rest, by far the greater number, are in the power of the wicked one; they do his works, and support his cause. This general declaration includes all unbelievers, whatever their profession, station, or situation, or by whatever name they may be called. The Son leads believers to the Father, and they are in the love and favour of both; in union with both, by the indwelling and working of the Holy Spirit. Happy are those to whom it is given to know that the Son of God is come, and to have a heart to trust in and rely on him that is true! May this be our privilege; we shall thus be kept from all idols and false doctrines, and from the idolatrous love of worldly objects, and be kept by the power of God, through faith, unto eternal salvation. To this living and true God, be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 John 5:18 Commentaries

 

[Gr8Grace]

“We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not; but he that was begotten of God keepeth himself, and the evil one toucheth him not.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:18‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭ASV‬‬

2 Cor 5:17~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Our new creation in Christ CANNOT sin.........Fellowship is key here.

If we are not grieving the Spirit.
If we are not quenching the Spirit.
If we are walking in the Spirit.
If we are filled with the Spirit:

We are living in the new creation in Christ that CANNOT sin. The moment we grieve or quench the Spirit we are no longer living in our new creation and we are out of fellowship......And then we can sin with the best of em.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ok the Greek word for committeth also means continue. So that could be a translation problem brother.

It is worth mentioning, the Greek does not "mean" continue, but the tense necessarily implies it. "...does not continue to sin."

 

[Mark Quayle]

Gal 2:17
"But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."

Romans 6:1-2
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

Other versions say simply "Shall we sin, that grace may abound?" to which I answer, "No, but we do and it does." I agree with the Greek tense implying "continue in sin" or "continue to sin", however, which kind of messes up my little saying.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It is worth mentioning, the Greek does not "mean" continue, but the tense necessarily implies it. "...does not continue to sin."

committeth


G4160


Lemma:

ποιέω


Transliteration:

poiéō


Pronounce:

poy-eh'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to make a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc. b) to be the authors of, the cause c) to make ready, to prepare d) to produce, bear, shoot forth e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self f) to make a thing out of something g) to (make i.e.) render one anything

1) to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that

2) to (make i.e.) declare one anything h) to put one forth, to lead him out i) to make one do something

1) cause one to j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)

2) to do a) to act rightly, do well

1) to carry out, to execute b) to do a thing unto one

1) to do to one c) with designation of time: to pass, spend d) to celebrate, keep

1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover e) to perform: to a promise


Grammar:

apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct):--abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do(-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare πράσσω.

I highlighted a few possibilities that I think could be referring to how poiéō could be used to discribe the manner in which a Christian would sin.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Something that’s always bothered me is there are a few verses in the Bible that say that a person who is born again will not or cannot sin.

“We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not; but he that was begotten of God keepeth himself, and the evil one toucheth him not.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:18‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭ASV‬‬

These struck me as pretty strong evidence because even looking into the Greek I can’t find anything indicating that this is a mistranslation. Even looking into the definition of the Greek words I can’t find any indication that they can have an alternate meaning. Furthermore when I look into verses that say we all still sin they are worded in a way that could be referring to past sin and possibly not future or present sins. My heart tells me that all Christians will still sin no matter how hard we try not to. I’ve met many many extremely devoted Christians and all of them admit they still sin. I’ve actually never met a Christian in person who claims they don’t still sin. I find it very hard to believe that I’ve never met anyone who is born again. I have really tried very hard to devote my life to Christ. I’m always studying and trying to learn from other Christians who have different perspectives and no matter how hard I try to achieve this goal I fail. Now I don’t steal, lie, cheat, drink alcohol, harm or attack others, etc. Mostly my sins are things like doubt, worry, complaining, frustration, and occasionally pride. Maybe some light boasting in there as well. I believe that everyone will sin even after being born again. I believe there is a difference between being a slave to sin and occasionally stumbling in sin. As Christians we are no longer a slave to sin we are no longer controlled by our sinful nature but we are not perfect and will still stumble from time to time. This is what I believe. So I decided to create this poll to see what percentage of Christians claim they don’t sin and to perhaps see more perspectives on this subject to see if there’s some evidence I’m missing to help me better understand whether I’m just truly not born again or that everyone sins whether they are born again or not. In the event this becomes a debate between those who claim not to sin and those who claim they do sin I will remind everyone please refrain from saying that a person is not a Christian or is not born again as it is against the forum rules.

I have to say, "What do you mean, by 'sin', in your question? --continue to sin?" I need to know before I can submit to your poll. I have run into at least two people who said they had not sinned since such and such a date or event.

The first was a Christian College president, who held to the Keswick position, stated during a chapel meeting. I wanted to say, "What's your point, Jack?!", but I held my tongue.

Another was a Wesleyan Church elder, who believed in what they call "The Second Work of Grace", which to me smacks of mental construction and not Bible. I believe him to be sincere, but after I asked him if his wife would say he has not sinned, I found our he means something along the lines of his whole life runs a different track from that of sin. I agree with that. There is even reason to believe the term "Carnal Christian" refers to one who attends, but is not yet reborn.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm not really liking that translation ASV for this verse. As a matter of fact, I think this translation is super bad.

1 John‬ ‭5:18‬
We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.


Here is what the most popular commentaries say, it may open up the discussion.

I'll highlight in red the parts I find interesting.


Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

(3) SOME PRACTICAL POINTS RECAPITULATED (1John 5:18-21).

(a)God's sons do not sin (1John 5:18).

St. John refers back to "that ye may know" in 1John 5:13, and sums up three points from former portions of the Epistle, describing the true consciousness of the Christian. Each begins with "We know."

(18) Sinneth not.--There is no reason to supply "unto death." (Comp. the Note on 1John 3:9.) St. John means strongly to insist, in this the solemn close of his Letter, that the true ideal Christian frame is the absence of wilful sin. Stumbles there may be, even such as need the prayers of friends, but intentional lawlessness there cannot be.

But he that is begotten of God keepeth himself.--Rather, he that is begotten of God keepeth him: that is, the Son of God preserves him. (Comp. John 6:39; John 10:28; John 17:12; John 17:15.)

And that wicked one toucheth him not.--The last mention of the devil was in 1John 3:10. The devil and his angels attack, but cannot influence so long as the Christian abides in Christ. (Comp. 1Peter 5:8; Ephesians 6:11; Revelation 3:10.)

(3 b.) Personal assurance that we are God's sons (1John 5:19).

Next after the cardinal point that righteousness is the characteristic of the new birth comes the necessity that the Christian should make up his mind that he has been, or is being, born again, and is really different from the world. The proofs would be seen in 1John 1:6; 1John 2:3; 1John 2:5; 1John 2:29; 1John 3:9; 1John 3:14; 1John 3:19; 1John 3:24; 1John 4:7; 1John 4:13; 1John 4:15; 1John 5:1; 1John 5:10.

(19) The whole world lieth in wickedness.--Rather, the wicked one. There is a constant danger lest Christians should forget this. (Comp. Galatians 1:4.)

(3 c.) Personal assurance of the Incarnation, of the gift of the spiritual sense, and of abiding in the God of Truth through His Son (1John 5:20).

The series ends with a climax: the Son is indeed come; He gave us the faculty of seeing the true God; and in that Almighty Being we actually are. through the Son. The greatest fact of all to St. John's mind is that his Friend and Master of sixty years ago was the very Word made flesh. (Comp. 1John 1:1-2; 1John 2:13; 1John 2:22-23; 1John 3:5; 1John 3:8; 1John 3:16; 1John 3:23; 1John 4:2; 1John 4:9-10; 1John 5:1; 1John 5:5; 1John 5:9; 1John 5:11.)

(20) And hath given us an understanding.--Comp. Acts 26:18; 1Corinthians 2:12-15; Ephesians 1:18. This spiritual faculty of discernment was one of the gifts of that Spirit which Christ was to send. (Comp. 1John 2:20; 1John 2:27; John 14:26; John 16:13.)

Him that is true.--The personality of God. Amid all the deceptions and fluctuations of the world, St. John felt, with the most absolute and penetrating and thankful conviction, that the followers of Christ were rooted and grounded in perfect, unshakable, unassailable truth. This could not be unless they were resting on the living Son and holding fast to Him.

This is the true God, and eternal life.--A most solemn and emphatic crown to the whole Epistle. "This God, as seen in His Son, is the true God." If the Word had not been God, God could not have been seen in Him. "And God, seen in His Son, is eternal life." This is only another way of putting John 17:3. (Comp. 1John 5:11-13.) To make "this is the true God" refer only to the Son is equally admissible by grammar, but hardly suits the argument so well.

(4) LAST WARNING (1John 5:21).

(21) Little children, keep yourselves from idols.--This parting word is suggested by the thought of "the true God." Every scheme of thought, every object of affection, which is not of Him, is a rival of His empire, a false god, a delusive appearance only, without solidity or truth. We cannot conclude better than in the words of Ebrard: "This idea is a general and very comprehensive one: it embraces all things and everything which may be opposed to the God revealed in Christ and to His worship in spirit and in truth. Pre-eminently, therefore, it embraces the delusive and vain idols of the Corinthian Gnosticism, whether ancient or modern; but it includes also the idols and false mediators of superstition, to whom the confidence is transferred which is due only to God in Christ--be their name Madonna, or saints, or Pope, or priesthood, or good works, or pictures, or office, or church, or sacraments. The One Being in whom we have 'the life eternal' is Christ. . . . And this Christ we possess through the Spirit of God, whose marks and tokens are not priestly vestments, but faith and love. In this meaning, the Apostle's cry sounds forth through all the ages, in the ears of all Christians, 'LITTLE CHILDREN, KEEP YOURSELVES FROM IDOLS!' The holiest things may become a snare if their letter is regarded and not their spirit. Every Christian Church has a tendency to worship its own brazen serpents. Happy are they who have a Hezekiah to call them Nehushtan!"


Pulpit Commentary

Verses 18-21. - With three solemn asseverations and one equally solemn charge the Epistle is brought to a close. "Can we be certain of any principles in ethics? St. John declares that we can. He says that he has not been making probable guesses about the grounds of human actions, the relations of man to God, the nature of God himself. These are firings that he knows. Nay, he is not content with claiming this knowledge himself. He uses the plural pronoun; he declares that his disciples, his little children, know that which he knows" (Maurice). Verse 18. - We know; οἴδαμεν, as in 1 John 3:2, 14, and John 21:24, which should be compared with this passage. These expressions of Christian certitude explain the undialectical character of St. John's Epistles as compared with those of St. Paul. What need to argue and prove when both he and his readers already knew and believed? We must have "begotten" in both clauses, as in the Revised Version, not "born" in one and "begotten" in the other, as in the Authorized Version. In the Greek there is a change of tense ὁ γεγεννημένος and ὁ γεννηθείς, but no change of verb. The whole should run, "We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not, but the Begotten of God keepeth him." For the perfect participle, comp. 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:1, 4; 1 John 3:6, 8: it expresses him who has come to be, and still continues to be, a son of God. The aorist participle occurs nowhere else in St. John: it expresses him who, without relation to time past or present, is the Son of God. The reading αὐτόν is preferable to ἑαυτόν. The Vulgate has conservat eum, not conserver seipsum, which Calvin adopts. The eternal Son of the Father preserves the frail children of the Father from the common foe, so that the evil one toucheth them not. The verb for "touch ἅπτεσθαι is the same as in "Touch me not" (John 20:17). In both cases "touch" is somewhat too weak a rendering; the meaning is rather, "lay hold of," "hold fast." The Magdalene wished, not merely to touch, but to hold the Lord fast, so as to have his bodily presence continually. And here the meaning is that, though the evil one may attack the children of God, yet he cannot get them into his power.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

We know that whosoever is born of God,.... Who is regenerated by his Spirit and grace, and quickened by his power; who has Christ formed in him, and is made a partaker of the divine nature, and has every grace implanted in him:

sinneth not; the sin unto death; nor does he live in sin, or is under the power and dominion of it, though he does not live without it; See Gill on 1 John 3:9;

but he that is begotten of God; the Vulgate Latin version reads, "the generation of God keeps or preserves him"; that is, that which is born in him, the new man, the principle of grace, or seed of God in him, keeps him from notorious crimes, particularly from sinning the sin unto death, and from the governing power of all other sins; but all other versions, as well as copies, read as we do, and as follows:

keepeth himself; not that any man can keep himself by his own power and strength; otherwise what mean the petitions of the saints to God that he would keep them, and even of Christ himself to God for them on the same account? God only is the keeper of his people, and they are only kept in safety whom he keeps, and it is by his power they are kept; but the sense is, that a believer defends himself by taking to him the whole armour of God, and especially the shield of faith, against the corruptions of his own heart, the snares of the world, and particularly the temptations of Satan:

and that wicked one toucheth him not; he cannot come at him so as to wound him to the heart, or destroy that principle of life that is in him, or so as to overcome and devour him; he may tempt him, and sift him, and buffet him, and greatly afflict and grieve him, but he can not touch his life, or hurt him with the second death; nay, sometimes the believer is so enabled to wield the shield of faith, or to hold up Christ the shield by faith, and turn it every way in such a manner, that Satan, who is here meant by the wicked one, because he is notoriously so, cannot come near him, nor in with him; cannot work upon him at all with his temptations, nor in the least hurt his peace, joy, and comfort: the saints know their perseverance from the promises of God and declarations of Christ; Psalm 125:1.


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

18. (1Jo 3:9.)

We know—Thrice repeated emphatically, to enforce the three truths which the words preface, as matters of the brethren's joint experimental knowledge. This 1Jo 5:18 warns against abusing 1Jo 5:16, 17, as warranting carnal security.

whosoever—Greek, "every one who." Not only advanced believers, but every one who is born again, "sinneth not."

he that is begotten—Greek aorist, "has been (once for all in past time) begotten of God"; in the beginning of the verse it is perfect. "Is begotten," or "born," as a continuing state.

keepeth himself—The Vulgate translates, "The having been begotten of God keepeth HIM" (so one of the oldest manuscripts reads): so Alford. Literally, "He having been begotten of God (nominative pendent), it (the divine generation implied in the nominative) keepeth him." So 1Jo 3:9, "His seed remaineth in him." Still, in English Version reading, God's working by His Spirit inwardly, and man's working under the power of that Spirit as a responsible agent, is what often occurs elsewhere. That God must keep us, if we are to keep ourselves from evil, is certain. Compare Joh 17:15 especially with this verse.

that wicked one toucheth him not—so as to hurt him. In so far as he realizes his regeneration-life, the prince of this world hath nothing in him to fasten his deadly temptations on, as in Christ's own case. His divine regeneration has severed once for all his connection with the prince of this world.


Matthew Henry Commentary

5:18-21 All mankind are divided into two parties or dominions; that which belongs to God, and that which belongs to the wicked one. True believers belong to God: they are of God, and from him, and to him, and for him; while the rest, by far the greater number, are in the power of the wicked one; they do his works, and support his cause. This general declaration includes all unbelievers, whatever their profession, station, or situation, or by whatever name they may be called. The Son leads believers to the Father, and they are in the love and favour of both; in union with both, by the indwelling and working of the Holy Spirit. Happy are those to whom it is given to know that the Son of God is come, and to have a heart to trust in and rely on him that is true! May this be our privilege; we shall thus be kept from all idols and false doctrines, and from the idolatrous love of worldly objects, and be kept by the power of God, through faith, unto eternal salvation. To this living and true God, be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 John 5:18 Commentaries

I sometimes use the ASV when I’m examining a verse because it is one of the closest translations to the original Greek. I usually use the NLT when trying to teach or help someone understand. The NLT is the easiest to understand I think but probably one of the worst and least accurate. So I often double check with the ASV to make sure the particular verses I’m quoting are accurate.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have to say, "What do you mean, by 'sin', in your question? --continue to sin?" I need to know before I can submit to your poll. I have run into at least two people who said they had not sinned since such and such a date or event.

The first was a Christian College president, who held to the Keswick position, stated during a chapel meeting. I wanted to say, "What's your point, Jack?!", but I held my tongue.

Another was a Wesleyan Church elder, who believed in what they call "The Second Work of Grace", which to me smacks of mental construction and not Bible. I believe him to be sincere, but after I asked him if his wife would say he has not sinned, I found our he means something along the lines of his whole life runs a different track from that of sin. I agree with that. There is even reason to believe the term "Carnal Christian" refers to one who attends, but is not yet reborn.

What I mean is do you still commit any sin now that your a Christian?

 

[BNR32FAN]

2 Cor 5:17~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Our new creation in Christ CANNOT sin.........Fellowship is key here.

If we are not grieving the Spirit.
If we are not quenching the Spirit.
If we are walking in the Spirit.
If we are filled with the Spirit:

We are living in the new creation in Christ that CANNOT sin. The moment we grieve or quench the Spirit we are no longer living in our new creation and we are out of fellowship......And then we can sin with the best of em.

Oh man it feels so much better to agree with you brother. Lol God bless

 

[RaymondG]

What I mean is do you still commit any sin now that your a Christian?

What makes one a Christian? on this site, you are forced to state a religion.....if selecting the "christian" option, makes you a christian....than of course you can still sin after that. Also if joining a christian chruch makes you a christian or being born in a christian home.....than yes, they can still sin.

We have to differentiate the title, from the one given the gift from God....else we all could be talking about something different.

does one who is filled with the spirit of God, no more I but Christ living in them, tasted of the heavenly kingdom etc... fall away after? I think Not. And Paul seems to think that, if they do, they can never come back.....

 

[FatalHeart]

Something that’s always bothered me is there are a few verses in the Bible that say that a person who is born again will not or cannot sin.

“We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not; but he that was begotten of God keepeth himself, and the evil one toucheth him not.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:18‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭ASV‬‬

These struck me as pretty strong evidence because even looking into the Greek I can’t find anything indicating that this is a mistranslation. Even looking into the definition of the Greek words I can’t find any indication that they can have an alternate meaning. Furthermore when I look into verses that say we all still sin they are worded in a way that could be referring to past sin and possibly not future or present sins. My heart tells me that all Christians will still sin no matter how hard we try not to. I’ve met many many extremely devoted Christians and all of them admit they still sin. I’ve actually never met a Christian in person who claims they don’t still sin. I find it very hard to believe that I’ve never met anyone who is born again. I have really tried very hard to devote my life to Christ. I’m always studying and trying to learn from other Christians who have different perspectives and no matter how hard I try to achieve this goal I fail. Now I don’t steal, lie, cheat, drink alcohol, harm or attack others, etc. Mostly my sins are things like doubt, worry, complaining, frustration, and occasionally pride. Maybe some light boasting in there as well. I believe that everyone will sin even after being born again. I believe there is a difference between being a slave to sin and occasionally stumbling in sin. As Christians we are no longer a slave to sin we are no longer controlled by our sinful nature but we are not perfect and will still stumble from time to time. This is what I believe. So I decided to create this poll to see what percentage of Christians claim they don’t sin and to perhaps see more perspectives on this subject to see if there’s some evidence I’m missing to help me better understand whether I’m just truly not born again or that everyone sins whether they are born again or not. In the event this becomes a debate between those who claim not to sin and those who claim they do sin I will remind everyone please refrain from saying that a person is not a Christian or is not born again as it is against the forum rules.

"For if you do these things you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 1:11.

I believe it is possible, and even if not, it is something we are to attain towards. It was the purpose of God to eliminate sin by the Holy Spirit given to us through faith in what Jesus did for our sins on the cross -that faith which was not earned, but a gift given to us by the grace of God which instills in us a new heart and a new nature in which there is no sin. Let us therefor not mock the passion to achieve perfection, but wisely instruct those who hold such God given ambition, so that they will not be disillusioned in their attempts and failures to forget the past and reach forward to the prize which Jesus has called us heavenward, which, as it seems, you all have been doing. Woot.

It is clear that those who once sinned have been brought now by the grace of God through their faith in the blood of Jesus close to God and are now indwelt with His Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, so that they can live the life that God has always wanted for them and overcome the world. It is the calling of every Christian, but there has been much wisdom shared, and I am happy that people have been kind to those who fail, as we all fail, and still have not maligned the idea that following the Holy Spirit (which is perfection) is unobtainable.

This message of Peter is not the only scripture to hold great promise for us for perfection; "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." And to answer those that think we are at no law = no sin, Galatians continues by teaching what the sinful nature looks like and what the Spirit looks like, ending with that there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit, meaning, everything the Spirit brings is perfect (it hits the mark) and, "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." So, there is still a law, as even James refers to God's word as, "The perfect law that gives freedom." It's just we now serve in the way of the Spirit instead of written code, therefor, the call now is, "keep in step with the Spirit."

I do not feel that it is "meat" to teach people not to sin -Jesus did that -the entirety of the Bible does that. And I feel perfection is scoffed at because people are sinners. I think it is the sinful nature's intent to make it appear as though any attempt to be perfect is self righteous and not of God -that Jesus somehow still remains in the grave and that there has been no forgiveness of sins, no freedom from the bondage of its slavery -that the Spirit hasn't been given to his followers: "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute."

It is Satan's intention to bring about false people so that godly people will look bad. I am assuming every single one of you has had an experience with someone who is self righteous, but does that make attaining to the Bible self righteous? You will all answer to me, "No," but then a majority of you will still hate the idea of teaching perfection. Why? Because someone misused the concept somewhere? That's not even logically consistent; it's not a genuine place to come from. Rather, should not that experience have pointed you to the idea that there is a right way and a wrong way to be right, rather than that there is no way to be right? Simply put: It is only sin that doesn't want to stop sinning. It's only sin that doesn't want to attempt a life lived completely for Jesus, sacrificing the stumbling blocks in life, twisting this calling into a reason for depression, a causer of anxiety, or bullying.

I'll admit. Satan is a bully. He'll make you feel worthless, like nothing you do will ever be right. But anything that prevents you from following the truth and running a good race isn't from God. Galatians 5:7. So also it is with those that scoff at the ideas of those trying to be more like Christ as if their life choice to try to be all that He wants from them, increasing in their obedience day-by-day, is something silly to live for, or encourage in others, or not the commands of scripture. Should we not avoid sin? "To shun evil -that is understanding." It is therefore a sign of maturity that we acknowledge that doing all that we can to obey the Lord is exactly where the Lord wants us to be.

I will end with this. The Bible says that perfect love drives out all fear, and as Christian we understand that it is referring to God's perfect love for us, and, indeed, we have been saved from condemnation and are being changed by Him perfectly so that we will not have to face despair when God gives to every person according to what they have done -in all our striving to obey, we can trust in God's perfect love for us to save us from our imperfect selves; we can rest at ease in the salvation that is in Jesus. But I also think that we miss the fact that the Spirit He has caused to dwell in us by His grace, loves perfectly, and that by walking with that Spirit we too will love perfectly, and that in that state of selflessness, fear does not exist. "Let perseverance finish its work, so that you will be mature lacking nothing." Or as Paul says, "For whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage that I may gain Christ and be found in him ... I press on toward the goal to win the prize."

 

[ToBeLoved]

What I mean is do you still commit any sin now that your a Christian?

I do.