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Featured Please...Tell Me What Tribulation Is!

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Questore, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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  2. the old scribe

    the old scribe old scribe Supporter

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    Dispensationalists non futurist interpretations of parts of Matthew 24

    Dispensationalists have debated whether these signs reported in Matthew 24 refer to the period of the Church or to the period of the Tribulation, also known as the seventieth week of Daniel. Therefore, there are, basically, two groups:
    (1) those who understand that some of these signals relate to the time of the Church;
    (2) those who understand that all signs refer to the time of the Tribulation.
    The Fulfillment of Matthew 24:4-31 in Dispensational Tradition. – Integrative Dispensationalism Research Center

    In his commentary on Matthew, John Nelson Darby understand that verses 4-14 will be fulfilled during the period of the testimony of the disciples (the period when the apostles remained), which encompasses the period of church.

    Cyrus I. Scofield has a double vision. For him, the signs referred to Tribulation events. However, they also have an interpretation for the present age (age of the Church).

    Lewis S. Chafer had a similar view of Scofield’s. Some signs apply to this era or the era of the Church.. For him the present era will be marked by signs that are described through verse 8. Therefore, in his view, the signs of the Tribulation period are presented in verses 9-26.

    The view Chafer was followed by dispensational theologian H. A. Ironside who understood que verses 4-8 “give general characteristics of the age, and that verses 9–14 emphasize the particular signs of the end of the age.”

    The theologian John Walvoord, following a similar view of Chafer and Ironside.

    This line of thinking was also advocated by the dispensationalist theologian James F. Rand.

    Larry Pettegrew says that the events described in verses 4-14 would typify the era from the time of the Lord’s prophecy up to the middle of the seven-year tribulation.

    Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum says that verses 4-6 refer to common events throughout the church age; verses 7-8, to events that will mark the end of the church age; verses 9-14, to the first half of the Tribulation and verses 15-26 speaks of the second half of Tribulation.

    John Philips understands that verses 4-14 refer to this age (Church age) and relate to the time of the Gentiles. From verse 15, Jesus speaks specifically to the Jews of the Tribulation Period. For this reason, in his commentary, he seeks to show that, to some extent, we are seeing to increase the number and intensity of the signs described in verses 4-14.

    Leon Morris, Matthew, Pillar New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1992), 593-608.

    The traditional preterist-futurist view includes:

    David L. Turner, “Matthew 24”;

    Wilkins, Matthew, 778-91;

    Glasscock, Matthew, 468;

    John D. Grassmick, “Mark,” in The Bible Knowledge Commentary: New Testament Edition, ed. John F. Walvoord and Roy B. Zuck (Wheaton, IL: Victor, 1983), 169-70. C.

    Marvin Pate, “A Progressive Dispensationalist View of Revelation,” in Four Views on the Book of Revelation(Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), 135, saw the hermeneutical key for progressive dispensational interpretation of New Testament prophecy to be an “already/not yet” eschatological tension. For Pate, both Revelation 6—18 and parallel events in the Olivet Discourse were partially fulfilled in AD 70 yet have their ultimate fulfillment in the future.

    But not Darrell L. Bock, Luke 9:51-24:53, Baker Exegetical Commentary (Grand Rapids: Baker BookHouse, 1996), 1675-77, carefully differentiated between the account in Luke 21:20-24 which describes Jerusalem’s fall and the account in Matthew 24:15-22 which looks at the end-time and speaks of consummation. He took a futurist view on this section in Matthew.
     
  3. the old scribe

    the old scribe old scribe Supporter

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    Nelson on Dispensationalists interpreting Matthew 24
    The following is by a dispensationalist and according to his education ought to be an expert on dispensationalism. The article was published in the Journal of Dispensational
    Theology: Volume 11, Number 33 (August 2007), pp. 49 ff
    The URL follows:
    https://www.tyndale.edu/wp-content/uploads/JODT-Vol11-No33-Aug07.pdf

    Title: Three Critical Exegetical Issues in Matthew 24
    A Dispensational Interpretation By Neil D. Nelson Jr.
    (selections edited for info on differences among dispensationalist concerning the interpretations of Matthew 24)
    Professor of Greek and New Testament, Calvary Theological Seminary –
    A dispensationalist institution
    Dr. Nelson’s has two graduate degrees from Dallas Theological Seminary –
    A dispensationalist institution

    The author of this article does not mean to imply that dispensational interpretations of the discourse are monolithic. There is some variation in dispensational interpretation of these issues. Indeed, concerning the difficult problem of the meaning of Matthew 24:34 (”Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place”), several dispensationalists have changed their views after continued study.

    Few dispensational writers on an academic level today continue to hold that “this generation” refers to Israel as a nation. However, such an interpretation had been a popular view decades ago.

    Futurist interpreters, while differing as to whether Matthew 24:4-14 refers to the interadvent age, or wholly or partly to a future “great tribulation” period immediately before the end,9 assign all of 24:15-41 to the future. There are two types of mediating positions by dispensationalist, the traditional and the revised preterist-futurist positions (a dispensationalist position).

    The traditional preterist-futurist position (a dispensationalist position) understands 24:15-26 as a double reference” prophecy referring in a perspective common to biblical prophecy in the near view to the events of AD 70 and in the far view to the end of the age.10

    The revised preterist-futurist view of Carson sees AD 70 as the subject of Matthew 24:15-21 and the church age being addressed in 24:22-28.11 The futurist interpretation of Matthew 24:15-28, the view of most dispensational interpreters, best explains this important section of Jesus’ sermon. (Note: Nelson in this statement agrees that most but not all dispensationalist interpret Matthew 24:15-28with a futurist perspective.



    Footnotes: (The footnotes provide additional information of the differences in how dispensationalist interpret Matthew 24)

    09.
    John F. Walvoord, Matthew: Thy Kingdom Come (Chicgo: Moody Press, 1974; reprint, Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1998), 183, understood Matthew 24:4-14 as a unit, describing the general characteristics of the age leading to the end. He wrote: “In general, these signs have been at least partly fulfilled in the present age and have characterized the period between the first and the second coming of Christ. They should be understood as general signs rather than specific signs that the end is near” (183-84).

    He did believe these general inter-advent difficulties will be “fulfilled in an intensified form as the age moves on to its conclusion.” Walvoord is probably “the greatest defender of the pretribulation rapture in [the twentieth] century” (from the dedication in Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, gen. eds.,

    When the Trumpet Sounds [Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1995], 3). Other dispensationalist writers who hold this view include Wilkins, Matthew, 772-77; David K. Lowery, “A Theology of Matthew,” in A Biblical Theology of the New Testament, ed. Roy Zuck (Chicago: Moody Press, 1994), 60; Joel F. Williams, “Mark,” in The Bible Knowledge Key Word Study: The Gospels (Colorado Springs: Cook, 2002), 158 [concerning the Markan parallel to these verses]; Ed Glasscock, Matthew (Chicago: Moody Press, 1997), 461-97; and Nelson, “Exegesis of Matthew 24,” 191-94. C. I. Scofield, Scofield Reference Bible(New York: Oxford University Press, 1909), 1033, held that 24:4-14 applies to the church age and to the end of the age. Louis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, 8 vols. (Dallas: Dallas Seminary Press, 1947), 5:120-21, believed that 24:4-8 describes events of the present church age and 24:9-26 describes the tribulation period. Dispensationalists who place the events of Matthew 24:4-14 exclusively in an end times tribulation period yet future include: J. Dwight Pentecost, Things to Come (Findlay, OH: Dunham Books, 1958), 277; Paul P. Enns, “Olivet Discourse,” in Dictionary of Premillennial Theology, gen. ed. Mal Couch (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1996), 287; and, Paul N. Benware, Understanding End Times Prophecy(Chicago: Moody Press, 1995), 317-20.

    10
    Adherents of this view include George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), 309-11 (Ladd was not a dispensationalist but presented the inaugurated eschatology and "futuristic post-tribulationism); and Leon Morris, Matthew, Pillar New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1992), 593-608. Thomas Ice, “Back to the Future,” in When the Trumpet Sounds, 13, argued that to be a pretribulationist, one must be a futurist. However, several dispensational interpreters hold to a traditional preterist-futurist view including David L. Turner, “Matthew 24”; Wilkins, Matthew, 778-91; Glasscock, Matthew, 468; and John D. Grassmick, “Mark,” in The Bible Knowledge Commentary: New Testament Edition, ed. John F. Walvoord and Roy B. Zuck (Wheaton, IL: Victor, 1983), 169-70. C. Marvin Pate, “A Progressive Dispensationalist View of Revelation,” in Four Views on the Book of Revelation(Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), 135, saw the hermeneutical key for progressive dispensational interpretation of New Testament prophecy to be an “already/not yet” eschatological tension. For Pate, both Revelation 6—18 and parallel events in the Olivet Discourse were partially fulfilled in AD 70 yet have their ultimate fulfillment in the future. Darrell L. Bock, Luke 9:51-24:53, Baker Exegetical Commentary (Grand Rapids: Baker BookHouse, 1996), 1675-77, carefully differentiated betweenthe account in Luke 21:20-24 which describes Jerusalem’s fall and the account in Matthew 24:15-22 which looks at the end-time and speaks of consummation. He took a futurist view on this section in Matthew.

    11
    Carson, “Matthew,” 499-504.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  4. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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  5. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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  6. the old scribe

    the old scribe old scribe Supporter

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    Post #62 provides some details as to the exact positions of renowned dispensationalist.

    Post #63 The article by a dispensationalist, New Testament seminary professor, Dr. Neil D. Nelson Jr., was published in the Journal of Dispensational Theology. It is he who references “When the Trumpet Sounds” and the 12 other authors who hold this view. Those being:
    Wilkins,
    David K. Lowery,
    Roy Zuck,
    Joel F. Williams,
    Ed Glasscock,
    Nelson,
    C. I. Scofield,
    Louis Sperry Chafer,
    J. Dwight Pentecost,
    Paul P. Enns,
    Mal Couch,
    Paul N. Benware.

    If you have rejected the position held by all of these scholars who were referenced as agreeing with “When the Trumpet Sounds”, why are you asking about positions held by dispensationalist? From your reply, their positions must not matter to you since you disposed of the book "When the Trumpets Sound."

    Because you seem to wish to express your beliefs, nothing I have posted should be of any interest to you. Rather than contending with the position of others why not present a precisely worded article on your belief about the tribulation and leave out the “bunch of balony,” but if you choose to use it, the word is "bolonga" or the variant "baloney."

    This forum has wisely provided a section for your view. It may be found under Theology (Christians Only) / General Theology / Dispensationalism. Making your points under this topic will find either acceptance or better informed and interested dispensationalist for contention.
    ---------------------------------------------------
    P.S. Yes, the old scribe is a cut and paste copier. Copying is what scribes do.
    Please note the URL and the note (selections edited for info on differences among dispensationalist concerning the interpretations of Matthew 24) - Post #63.
    This old scribe prefers positions be supported by experts in their field rather than opinions of hot peppers (sic). After all, do you wish to know the opinions of a scribe without credentials? At least, one can claim peppers come in containers with labels. All the materials on dispensationalism are copied from recognized dispensationalist scholars and are not the composition of the old scribe.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  7. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    From all of the evidence, it appears that you must be an halapenoist.

    Have you established an institution of higher indoctrination that awards credentials in halapenoism?
     
  9. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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  10. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    The tribulation is a seven year period that was supposed to happen immediately following the resurrection. When the Messiah was rejected it was put on indefinite hold. The term in the Greek is usually translated persecution but it can also me trouble or wrath. In order to understand the tribulation you have to realize there are three judgments that occur, the seals at the beginning, trumpets in the middle and vials right at the end.
     
  11. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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  12. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Yes, but let me explain. Before God judges he reveals sin, specifically this is a revelation of the man of sin, aka the Antichrist. The four horsemen are actually the same guy, the fifth seal are the martyrs killed in the wake of his bloody infamous rampage. The sixth seal is a final climactic battle that concludes with the armies of the Antichrist and pretty much every one else underground hiding from the fallout of a nuclear exchange. They know by now that this is judgment from God because the martyrs have been telling them this was prophesied.

    The restrainer will continue to restrain until he be taken out of the way. God is letting evil out, human malevolence is contained now but in the tribulation it will be brought out.

    With the end of the Trumpets God's kingdom is established upon the earth. That will happen at the sounding of the seventh chapter in the eleventh chapter when the testimony of the two witnesses is concluded in Jerusalem. This is half way through the tribulation but the armies of the Antichrist have survived and they appear to be having a big party for the second half of the tribulation. Even after the vials of wrath, they are still standing but when Christ returns it's over in an instant.
     
  13. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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  14. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    I think they are judgment in the sense that God just brings it out. At this time Israel is in the eye of the storm listening to the two witnesses and wishing they would just stop. During the trumpet blasts it finally sets in that this covenant of death was a mistake.
     
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