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Featured Please...Tell Me What Tribulation Is!

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Questore, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    I am confused. I realize that Jeremiah was writing prior to the Babylonian captivity, but the portion of scripture that refers to Jacob's Trouble doesn't fit into a Babylonian captivity.

    Jeremiah 30:7-9 (NKJV) Alas! For that day is great,
    So that none is like it;

    And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
    But he shall be saved out of it.
    8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
    Says the Lord of hosts,
    ‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
    And will burst your bonds;
    Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
    9 But they shall serve the Lord their God,
    And David their king,
    Whom I will raise up for them.


    That day is great that there is none like it. Well, there have been far worse situations for the Jewish people after the Babylonian event. Seems like Jeremiah got it wrong.

    Foreigners will no more enslave them. The Jewish people did not have a independent state until 1948. After the Babylonian captivity, they continued to be controlled by the Persia, Greece, Rome, Ottoman empire, Great Britain, to name the major ones. So again, Jeremiah must have got it wrong. Yes, there has been a substantial Jewish presence in the land, even after the 70 AD and 135 AD events. Substantial enough that some of the Crusaders would have contests on how many Jewish babies they could get on a sword, and 20,000 Jews were burned alive in the Great Synagogue of Jerusalem by the Crusaders.

    "In that day", is backward referenced to "that day' in the previous verse.

    David their king is a overt reference to the Messiah. In all this time, Messiah still hasn't reigned on the earth.

    Irregardless of Pilgrims and others, it is a major stretch to conclude that the Babylonian Captivity was a fulfillment of Jacob's Trouble. But then, there is a maxim in Computer Science that seems to apply here which states.... "if you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything".
     
  2. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    I'm curious.....reading the verses you posted in Matthew, I fail to see anything which says that believers are caught up into the air with Christ. The closest I can come to that is verse 30, but you would really have to streeeeeeeeeeech that verse to make it read that way.

    Would you care to enlighten me?
     
  3. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  4. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    That's because your pre-millenial pastors have done a good job of convincing you of the "Rapture" of the Church as they mishandle the Bible.

    The only book in question regarding this issue is Revelation. Matthew is the book where most Pre-mils go to "prove" the Rapture, and it was written before 70 AD. The dating of Revelation is in question, but here's the important question for you - if it was written after 70 AD, why is there no mention of that event in Revelation? Surely that would be a seminal event in eschatological understanding that John would not have left out of the book, yet it does not appear.

    If you don't think that the Preterist viewpoint is correct, then of what event could Christ possibly have been talking about with His disciples in Matthew 24? He gave a very clear timeline for it in the first three verses of that chapter - i.e., the destruction of the Temple. In fact, Matthew 23 is a runup to what He said as He wept over Jerusalem and Her impending doom.
     
  5. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Jer 30:1  The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 
    Jer 30:2  Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. 
    Jer 30:3  For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. 
    Jer 30:4  And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. 
    Jer 30:5  For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 
    Jer 30:6  Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 
    Jer 30:7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. 
    Jer 30:8  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 
    Jer 30:9  But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. 
    Jer 30:10  Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. 

    Maybe the word "captivity" and the phrase "from the land of their captivity", as in a singular land of captivity, should give us a clue here when we view the passage in context.

    Ripping Jeremiah 30:7 out of the historical context of the rest of the passage, would be the definition of the word "torture".


    Some here would attempt to apply Jeremiah 30:7 to the modern State of Israel.
    However, the following reveals the truth about the creation of the modern State of Israel, during the last century.



     
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

    Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.



    Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)



    Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 

    Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

    (Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )





    Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

    (Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

    ( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

    Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 





    Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

    (Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )



    Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

    (Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 



    Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



    Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

    (Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



    Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

    (Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



    Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

    (Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



    Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 

    Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 

    Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 

    Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 

    Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

    (Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



    Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 

    Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

    (Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 



    Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



    Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

    (Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 



    Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

    (Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



    Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

    Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 

    (Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )



    Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
    (Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


    The Coming of the Son of Man



    Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

    (Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 



    Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

    Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

    (Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 



    Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

    (Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)
    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

    "6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

    7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


    Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
    Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.

    John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.



    The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them. Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Christ was a "Partial-Preterist" in the Olivet Discourse.

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  8. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Well, that is a bit of a stretch too. It is generally accepted among most scholars of all stripes that Paul was killed in the Neronian persecution of the 60's, so he would have had to written his stuff before that. Acts is part 2 of Luke, and it primarily centers around Peter and Paul. But it doesn't show Paul's execution yet. One thing critical to a biography, especially for a historian of the high caliber of Luke, the subject's death. So that had to be written before Paul's death.

    James was the leader of the church at Jerusalem, and Josephus documents his demise between 62 and 69 AD. He died before the events of AD 70, so his book was written before then. The others, well, I guess one might be able to use them as a supporting idea of written after 70 AD. The Revelation is clearly without dispute. It was documented in the writings of those that were associated with John that it was written in the 90's.

    Preterism does have many problems. It has to allegorize a lot of scripture to extremes. Like many ideas, there are sprinklings of truth in it to make it palatable to some. Many who hold this position are, overall, true believers with no intent to deceive or malice in their heart. Just the approach they have taken, along with guidance from others, has led them to this particular idea.
     
  9. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    along with the word... "again" in verse 3 of your post. The Babylonian captivity was the first event. There would be another. Simple grammar of the use of the word "again". Then compare to Isaiah 11 where the lord says He will recover the remnant of His people that are left a second time, the outcast of Israel. Are there then two Jacob's Troubles?

    Torturing basic reading grammar it seems to me. Context notwithstanding. I have always felt the public education system was going downhill.
     
  10. the old scribe

    the old scribe old scribe Supporter

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    ----------------------------------------

    You have the old scribe’s sympathy concerning your study of the coming of Christ. It seems by your last paragraph you retain some ideas which are unsupportable from scripture. I’d suggest that you make a list of everything you believe about the coming Christ and the passages of scripture you believe support your position. Using this list examine every opposing viewpoint. This should include between three and seven points of view.

    Don’t try to determine which one is correct, but use each view point to aid in understanding what can not be correct about your views and the others.

    Since your post concerned “tribulation” the next post by the old scribe will provide all the New Testament verses using the Greek word for “tribulation.”

    The old commentary by John Gill is on line and provides some excellent insights for Matthew 24. John Gill held the historicist view point on eschatology but held that Matthew 24:1-34 was about the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70. If he was correct, then "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:21 cannot be about something in our future, but refers to a past event.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  11. the old scribe

    the old scribe old scribe Supporter

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    Tribulation scriptures

    Greek thlipsis

    θλῖψις, -εως, ἡ

    Strong's number: 2347

    GK Number: 2568

    Frequency in New Testament: 45

    Gloss: trouble, distress, oppression, tribulation

    Definition: pr. pressure, compression; met. affliction, distress of mind, 2 Cor. 2:4; distressing circumstances, trial, affliction
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Frequency in New Testament: 45

    Greek-English Concordance for θλῖψις
    Translations by MOUNCE of the 45 New Testament verses where the Greek thlipsis is used.

    Matthew 13:21
    suffering
    yet he has no root in himself but lasts only a short time, and when suffering (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem) or persecution arises on account of the message, immediately he falls away.

    Matthew 24:9
    persecuted
    Then they will hand you over to be persecuted (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem) and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name.

    Matthew 24:21
    suffering
    For then there will be great suffering (thlipsis | θλῖψις | nom sg fem), such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, and will never be again.

    Matthew 24:29
    suffering
    “Immediately after the suffering (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem) of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

    Mark 4:17
    tribulation
    But they have no root in themselves and last for only a limited time. last for Then, when tribulation (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem) or persecution comes because of the word, immediately they fall away.

    Mark 13:19
    tribulation
    because those will be days of such tribulation (thlipsis | θλῖψις | nom sg fem) as has never happened from the beginning of creation, which God created, until now, nor ever will be.

    Mark 13:24
    But in those days, after that tribulation (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem), the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,

    John 16:21
    anguish
    When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come; but when the baby is born, she no longer remembers the anguish (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem), because of the joy that a child has been born into the world.

    John 16:33
    tribulation
    I have told you these things so that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem), but take courage, I have conquered the world.”

    Acts 7:10
    afflictions
    and rescued him out of all his afflictions (thlipseōn | θλίψεων | gen pl fem) and gave him favor and wisdom before Pharaoh, king of Egypt, who appointed him ruler over Egypt and over all his royal household.

    Acts 7:11
    affliction
    Now there came a famine upon all Egypt and Canaan, bringing great affliction (thlipsis | θλῖψις | nom sg fem), and our fathers could find no food.

    Acts 11:19
    persecution
    Now those who were scattered because of the persecution (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem), which came to pass over Stephen, made their way as far as Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except Jews only.

    Acts 14:22
    tribulations
    strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “It is through many tribulations (thlipseōn | θλίψεων | gen pl fem) that we must enter the kingdom of God.”

    Acts 20:23
    persecutions
    except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me, saying that in every city imprisonment and persecutions (thlipseis | θλίψεις | nom pl fem) are waiting for me.

    Romans 2:9
    tribulation
    There will be tribulation (thlipsis | θλῖψις | nom sg fem) and distress for every human being who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek,

    Romans 5:3
    sufferings
    And not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings (thlipsesin | θλίψεσιν | dat pl fem), knowing that suffering (thlipsis | θλῖψις | nom sg fem) produces endurance,

    Romans 8:35
    tribulation
    Who can separate us from the love of Christ? Can tribulation (thlipsis | θλῖψις | nom sg fem), or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

    Romans 12:12
    suffering
    rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem), devote yourself to prayer;

    1 Corinthians 7:28
    trouble
    But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. However those who do marry will have worldly trouble (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem), and I am trying to spare you.

    2 Corinthians 1:4
    troubles
    who encourages us in all our troubles (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem), so that we may be able to encourage those experiencing any trouble (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem) with the encouragement with which we ourselves are encouraged by God.

    2 Corinthians 1:8
    affliction
    For we want you to know, brothers, about the affliction (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem) we suffered in Asia, that we were burdened excessively beyond our power to cope, so that we despaired even of living.

    2 Corinthians 2:4
    distress
    For out of much distress (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem) and anguish of heart I wrote to you, with many tears, not to cause you sorrow but to let you know the love that I have especially for you.

    2 Corinthians 4:17
    affliction
    For our momentary lightness of affliction (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem) is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,

    2 Corinthians 6:4
    affliction
    Rather, as servants of God, we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance, in times of affliction (thlipsesin | θλίψεσιν | dat pl fem), hardship, and distress;

    2 Corinthians 7:4
    distress
    I have great confidence in you; I take great pride in you. I am filled with encouragement; I am overflowing with joy in all our distress (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem).

    2 Corinthians 8:2
    affliction
    how that in a severe test of affliction (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem), the fullness of their joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in the richness of their generosity.

    2 Corinthians 8:13
    burden
    For this is not for the ease of others and a burden (thlipsis | θλῖψις | nom sg fem) for you, but a matter of equality;

    Ephesians 3:13
    sufferings
    I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings (thlipsesin | θλίψεσιν | dat pl fem) on your behalf, which are your glory.

    Philippians 1:17
    distress
    The former proclaim Christ out of a sense of hostility, not sincerely, intending to increase my distress (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem) while I am in prison.

    Philippians 4:14
    distress
    However, you have acted nobly, sharing with me in my distress (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem).

    Colossians 1:24
    afflictions
    I am now rejoicing in my sufferings on your behalf, and in my flesh am completing what is lacking in the afflictions (thlipseōn | θλίψεων | gen pl fem) of Christ in flesh my for the sake of his body, his which is the church,

    1 Thessalonians 1:6
    affliction
    And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you accepted the word in the midst of much affliction (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem), with the joy of the Holy Spirit.

    1 Thessalonians 3:3
    afflictions
    so that no one would be moved by these afflictions (thlipsesin | θλίψεσιν | dat pl fem). For you yourselves know that we were destined for this.

    1 Thessalonians 3:7
    affliction
    So in all our distress and affliction (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem), brothers, we have been reassured about you by your faith.

    2 Thessalonians 1:4
    afflictions
    so that we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all the persecutions and afflictions (thlipsesin | θλίψεσιν | dat pl fem) that you are enduring.

    2 Thessalonians 1:6
    affliction
    For it is a righteous thing for God to repay with affliction (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem) those who afflict you,

    Hebrews 10:33
    persecutions
    Sometimes you were made a public spectacle, both by insults and persecutions (thlipsesin | θλίψεσιν | dat pl fem), and at other times you became one with those who were treated in that way,

    James 1:27
    trouble
    Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their time of trouble (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem), and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

    Revelation 1:9
    tribulation
    I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation (thlipsei | θλίψει | dat sg fem) and kingdom and patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

    Revelation 2:9
    affliction
    I know your affliction (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem) and your poverty (but you are rich), and the slander against you by those who call themselves Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

    Revelation 2:10
    affliction
    Do not fear what you are about to suffer. The devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested, and you will have affliction (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem) for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

    Revelation 2:22
    affliction
    Beware, I will throw her onto a bed of suffering, and those who commit adultery with her into great affliction (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem), unless they repent of her ways.

    Revelation 7:14
    tribulation
    I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” Then he said to me, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation (thlipseōs | θλίψεως | gen sg fem); they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
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    ASV translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation twenty-one (21) times in the New Testament.

    ESV translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation sixteen times (16) in the New Testament.

    GNV translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation twenty times (20) in the New Testament.

    HCSB translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation ten times (10) in the New Testament.

    KJV translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation twenty-one times (21) in the New Testament.

    NASB translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation twenty times (20) in the New Testament.

    NIV translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation one time (1) in the New Testament.

    NKJV translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation thirty times (30) in the New Testament.

    RSV translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation seventeen times (17) in the New Testament.

    WEB translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation one time (1) in the New Testament.

    YLT translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation forty-four times (44) in the New Testament.
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    MOUNCE translates the Greek thlipsis as tribulation theses eight times (8) in the New Testament.

    Mark 4:17
    But they have no root in themselves and last for only a limited time. Then, when tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, immediately they fall away.

    Mark 13:19
    because those will be · days of such tribulation as has never happened from the

    Mark 13:24
    But in those · days, after · that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give · its light,

    John 16:33
    I have told you these things so that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage, I have conquered the world.”

    Romans 2:9
    There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does · evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek,

    Romans 8:35
    Who can separate us from the love of Christ? Can tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

    Revelation 1:9
    I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and kingdom and patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island · called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

    Revelation 7:14
    I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” Then he said to me, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; · · they have washed · their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
     
  12. the old scribe

    the old scribe old scribe Supporter

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    The old scribe recalls Josephus' account as having the Jewish defenders burn the temple?
     
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Maybe it was not the public education system that is at fault, if they taught you how to read.

    Somehow you missed the fact that the first captivity was in Egypt.

    Therefore, the captivity in Babylon would be the second and "again'.



    .
     
  14. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Likewise, you somehow missed out on the fact that Jeremiah 30:3 says that they will possess the land. They did not possess the land till 1948. Even after the Babylonian return, they were still under Persian control (they were given permission to return and rebuild), and remained so under future Greek, Roman, Muslim, Ottoman empire, Great Britain, etc until they became an independent state in 1948. So this passage in Jeremiah 30 could not have been regarding the Babylonian return.

    Likewise, the Isaiah 11 portion I referenced, it says a second time as a remnant. They left Egypt as a entire nation not as a remnant. Now, after the Babylonian event, only a remnant returned with Ezra and Nehemiah. And in modern times, a remnant as well.

    In your zeal to promote your position, try actually reading the words in the passages. I know it can be tough, but try. I know you can do it if you put your mind to it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I greatly appreciate your tremendous intellect and advice in all of our conversations here...




    .
     
  16. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member

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  17. thetruth0

    thetruth0 Member

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    The truth is that Matt 24 was not stitched correctly in the formation of the bible. It is actually 2 Prophecies in one. One being the result of the fall of the temple in 70 A.D, and the other being the End of the World. If you truly like me to show you how what im saying is true, then Pm me and i will show you. Otherwise, continue to study for yourself but i guarantee you, you will never see it until it is revealed to you.
     
  18. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Jacobs Troubles happen during the 70th Week. Jesus says as does Dan. 12:1-2, that it will be the Greatest Troubles ever seen, before or after. However many confuse John's passage in Rev. ch. 7 which speaks about the Multitude that came out of the Great Tribulation with the 7 Year Period but that is not what John was speaking of. He told of the Church which came out of the 2000 year period of the Tribulation of the Church before the Rapture. 2000 is greater than 7.

    Jesus returns after the Troubles of those Days...........with the church in tow.
     
  19. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Three....Matthew 24:1-6 is about the fall of the City/Jerusalem in 70 AD......Then we have Matthew 24:7-13-14 which is a 2000 some odd year period between 70 AD and the Rapture, a 2000 year period........Then we have a Seven Year Period of troubles between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

    Jesus mentions false christs in verse 5.........false prophets (preachers) in verse 11 for the 2000 year period, and the False Prophet and Anti-Christ in verse 24 during the Tribulation period.

    Three periods of time. The first is about the Pharisees and co. trying to force a Messiah to save them from the Fourth Beast, they felt sure the Little Horn was nigh, not 2000 years away.

    The Second period is about false preachers (think Jim Jones and others).

    The third period is about the Real False Prophet and Anti-Christ.
     
  20. thetruth0

    thetruth0 Member

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    No, sorry, that is not correct.
     
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