• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Please...Tell Me What Tribulation Is!

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Questore, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. Questore

    Questore MJ Supporter

    70
    +46
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Constitution
    I have studied the Scriptures for decades. I have entertained every possible consideration of when Yeshua come for his Bride.

    In every case, in every discussion, Believers speak about a time when prophecy indicates the people of G-d being caught up to meet Yeshua in the air, as stated in Matthew 24.

    Each of them describes a Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, Pan-Trib reference point. Each argues vehemently for their particular view in relation to the final 7 years of Daniel's prophecy. And yet, Yeshua states quite clearly what will happen, and in what order.

    So, with all the positions anyone can take in regard to the Day of Jacob's Trouble, which occurs at the end of the final 7 Years of the prophecy in Daniel, what is the Tribulation that is spoken of? What makes it Tribulation? For it seems to me that the definition one uses of Tribulation is paramount in your Eschatological position, and what caused that Tribulation.

    Matthew 24:2-31 (KJV)
    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
    10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    25 Behold, I have told you before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. 589

    589 New Member

    6
    +4
    Netherlands
    Messianic
    Single
    I think a good example is Daniël's staying in Babylon as captive. That's real tribulation. Even at the end where they were forced to bow down to the image and statue of Nebuchad they didn't, thrown in the oven and survived. I think the book of Daniël is all about tribulation
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  3. Beorh

    Beorh Writer of Dark Literature

    162
    +85
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Until John Nelson Darby interpreted the Bible differently than the Christians for 1,800 years before him, the Church understood that the Tribulation occurred from Years 67-73, with the destruction of the temple in Year 70 by Nero's viceroy Titus.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • List
  4. Anto9us

    Anto9us Ecumenical loose canon

    +1,854
    United States
    Methodist
    Private
    US-Others
    Nero died in 68 -- stabbed himself in the neck, I think...

    Titus was viceroy/general/son of Vespasian
     
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,811
    Non-Denom
    Read the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus' Wars of the Jews eyewitness accounts of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. For sheer depravity, bestiality, and misery, there has never been a tribulation before or after to surpass it. As Josephus himself observed, "That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world."
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  6. Anto9us

    Anto9us Ecumenical loose canon

    +1,854
    United States
    Methodist
    Private
    US-Others
    As I understand it, Titus personally did not want the Temple destroyed -- his men just went wild -- torched it...

    Gold was in between the stones of the Temple, all melted in - the Roman soldiers tore the stones apart with crowbars to get the gold as booty.

    Not one stone left on another.

    Lot of Christians had fled to Pella - per Jesus' warning
     
  7. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

    +568
    Christian
    I've really only looked into the end times since 2012.

    Yes but during His earthly ministry, I think He said something about not speaking His own words but only speaking the words that his Father had given him.

    When He got to heaven, He was given Revelation and a scroll sealed with 7 seals. Then He knew more than at the Olivet.

    From all that I can currently determine, the great tribulation will be started by or caused by the first four trumpets. The first four trumpets will be the catalyst that cause all of the unbelievable end time events. The great tribulation will be 371 days long, just like in the days of Noah and will culminate with the revelation of the sons of God at the seventh trumpet. Actually, "for then there will be great tribulation', looked like it should or might have been 420 days long. But seems to be shortened by 49 days or seven weeks at the start. Is this the time of the sealing of the 144,000 and the seven trumpet angels preparing themselves to sound? Or is the 420 tribulation days being shortened on the front end? I'm not sure at this time.

    But finding the 371 days seemed like a lock fit in celestial mechanics. Jesus said that the tribulation would be the absolute worst time ever, "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    The only other serious tribulation earth has seen was during the flood. Depending on the use of inclusive counting, from the time that Noah entered into the ark, until the day he left the ark, was 371 days. If our end time tribulation is the worst, it can't be any longer in duration.

    There is an obscure Hebraic version on Matthew called duTillet. I don't have a link for it anymore but instead of reading: 8 "All these are the beginning of sorrows", it reads: these are the "beginning of the plagues".

    “Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete” ...

    If the seven vials are the seven "last plagues", then the seven trumpets must be the seven first plagues. Of the seven trumpets, the last three are separated out and called "woes". So the beginning of the plagues would be the first four trumpets.

    PS: I did find a free link for the duTillet Matthew at Torahresource. At page 16 of my viewer at "Geneology" Hugh Schonfeild explains one of the reasons that this Hebraic version might be the most accurate version of Matthew. The early church fathers thought Matthew was the only NT Book written in Hebrew. At page 85 of my viewer chapter 24 begins.

    I bought a Kindle for PC version of this for a couple bucks that's much easier to read. But in reality it's priceless.

    https://www.torahresource.com/DuTillet/Schonfield.pdf
     
  8. Questore

    Questore MJ Supporter

    70
    +46
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Constitution
    In all my studies, I see two different pictures of the end times...and this coming only out of the Prophets, Matthew 24, and Revelation.

    Laying all the prophecies into the picture, it seems that we can see a few particular points that may or may not yet have happened, leading up to the time period call 'Tribulation', whether great or lesser.

    We have a temple that has twice been destroyed, yet another is mentioned in Revelation for the point of 1) being overrun in the outer courts by the Gentiles, and 2), for the A/C...one of many, but the one possessed by the Adversary, to sit down in and proclaim himself G-d.

    There are also two Witnesses that are killed, and then raised into incorruption after 3.5 days...the 42 months as stated in Daniel and in Revelation as 1260 days.

    We do have two witnesses...the Jews under the Mosaic Covenant and the Netsarim under the New Covenant, called loosely the 'Church'.

    We also have an abomination of desolation on the Temple mount from the time Aeolia Capitolina was put in place over Jerusalem, and later replaced by the Dome of the Rock, all of which can have satisfied some parts of the prophecies, but also seems to be lacking some fulfillment.

    These do not satisfy the human side of the equation...the A/C being possessed by the Evil One, and the two Witnesses, in sackcloth for 3.5 years, calling down fire on anyone who they will, and other curses as were the same plagues under Moshe.

    We have the first outright persecution of Messianic Jews in Israel by the Orthodox Jews...forbidding them to marry, and a push for Messianism to be a cause for eviction from Israel...even if you were born there.

    We have the Orthodox Jews on Temple mount for the first time since AD 70...at least in a minyan, and officially proclaiming that the Maschiach is now soon expected.

    We have a Sanhedrin of sorts in Israel again, although I doubt there will be be perfect consensus there, and a Temple ready to be built, whether the world wants it or not.

    We have a political situation where possibilities exist for that temple to be built...either on the Temple Mount, or over the Pool of Siloam...presuming that was to be miraculously verified by some archeaological sign to be the place of the 2nd Temple. One would cause immediate War, or even need a war to bring it about, and everyone seems to favor that in the Middle East as well.

    We have a sign in the heavens that matches that described in Revelation 12:1-2 coming to fruition in the skies over Jerusalem on the 23rd of this month, which is occurring on the Shabbat of Repentence within the Ten days of Awe leading up to Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement.

    We have the 2550 days of Daniel as a possible fit from Yom Teruah 2017 to Yom Kippur 2024...being only one of several successive windows of time that could fit the same 7 year period...if we are speaking of Daniel's final 7 years...presuming the days of the 7 year plus one month in that formula are actually part of the final 7 years of the prophecy, as opposed to a description of other things coming to pass that match with Revelation.

    We have a Sign of a War in the Heavens as described in Revelation, and a situation on earth that favors the prophecies coming to pass. If the Adversary is cast down due to that war in the Heavens, what do we look for...other than the persecutions of Believers that is ratcheting up everywhere?
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,604
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Jesus pinned the great tribulation to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

    So when during the 7 years? Blessed is he who waits until the 1335th day, in Daniel 12:12. The 7 years is 2520 days long. So Jesus returns on day 2520, then minus the 1335 days.... we can determine that the abomination of desolation will be set up on day 1185.

    As far as when, like what year from where we are now in 2017, the 7 years have to begin before the end of year 2030.

    Where I get that from (the parable of the fig tree) is 1967 plus 70 years for a generation = 2037 at the most distant year that Jesus will return by. Subtracting 7 years to begin the last week of Daniel 9:27, puts the confirming of the covenant by the person who becomes the Antichrist, not later than the end of 2030. Sometime between now and then.
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,604
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Questore, what we don't have is the ten kings of the fourth empire in place yet, with the little horn over them. When the EU looks like it is going to change up its government to ten leaders and one leader over them - then we are super close to Gog/Magog, followed by the 7 years.

    And since Gog/Magog appear to be developing with Russia in the middle east, that is also a indication that everything is going to come together quickly.
     
  11. Another Lazarus

    Another Lazarus Old Newbie

    +1,025
    Christian
    Married
    This present world is still given Peace, Abundancy and Beauty as God still gives the chance for mankind to receive His Salvation, but one day God's patience will finish and God will remove the whole Peace from the world.

    2 Thes 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
     
  12. Another Lazarus

    Another Lazarus Old Newbie

    +1,025
    Christian
    Married
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,604
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Russia is in the middle east right now aligned with the Syrians. What I don't understand is why in the video as a backdrop, he has WWIII. WWIII is not going to include Russia?
     
  14. Another Lazarus

    Another Lazarus Old Newbie

    +1,025
    Christian
    Married
    I dont know whether Russia will get involved in WW3 but for sure Russia is also fighting Turkey's army in Syria now as all this ISIS n NATO intention is to topple down Bashar Assad and replace him with American puppet.
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,604
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    I think the Russians are supporting Assad, as is Turkey. Both Turkey and Russia are fighting Isis. Gog/Magog is not WWIII, because all countries will not be involved.
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,604
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Another Lazarus, I went to check the longitude of Jerusalem, Moscow, Ankara. The speaker was claiming that Moscow not directly (true) north of Israel, but Ankara is.

    longitude line are the one's that go from the north pole to the south pole.

    For Jerusalem 35:2137 degrees E
    For Moscow 37:6173 degrees E
    For Ankara 32.8597 degrees E

    Since both Moscow and Ankara are not on an exact longitude as Jerusalem, neither is precisely exactly true north of Israel. I don't think the bible is intending by North, meaning on the exact same longitude.
    I think a person has to look at the size of the armies.
     
  17. Beorh

    Beorh Writer of Dark Literature

    162
    +85
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Sorry for the mistake about who was emperor. Still, 666 translates 'Nero' who died June 9, Year 68, after the Great Tribulation began in 67.
     
  18. Anto9us

    Anto9us Ecumenical loose canon

    +1,854
    United States
    Methodist
    Private
    US-Others
    Yeah, Nero's title/name adds up to 666
    Also -- there were rumors that he would come back to life
    Definitely much persecution in Nero's emperorship
     
  19. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

    +355
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    Much confusion comes from not separating tribulation that has it's origin in Satan and evil, and the tribulation that is of God. And the latter does not require an active act on God's part. A removal of His protection can also be the cause of tribulation.
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +4,507
    Christian
    Married
    The time of "Jacob's Trouble" occurred during the Babylonian captivity.

    Based on Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18, there was a time of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

    The time of the judgment of the dead is found in Revelation 11:18.
    The Book of Revelation is not in Chronological order.
    This is confirmed by Christ returning in Revelation 16:15-16 and also returning in chapter 19.


    The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

    ................................................
    Daniel 9:27
    And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    (a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

    (b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

    (c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

    .
     
Loading...