Please help me figure this out!

[ladodgers6]

No anger in my heart. I genuinely love the person (the Calvinist) but I strongly dislike the false belief (Calvinism).
They are also not false claims. My guess is that you did not research such claims in that they are legit. You are not willing to even consider that the statements are true because you favor Calvinism.

I have been a Classical Calvinist longer than you, right? So, insinuating that I have not done my homework is a shot the dark, my friend.​

Calvinism is actually just one of many topics I will discuss on occasion. It is by no means my sole mission to destroy. I am not actually worried about it. God will reveal all things in their due time. My real passion is discussing topic of salvation and obedience to God.

Doctrines of Grace is the topics of Salvation. So I will ask you, is a sinner justified by Faith Alone, by Works alone or both?

I only share my experiences with Calvinists. You can either believe it or not. Yes, you get bad apples in all religions, but my overall general experience with Calvinists is that they are cold, mean, and or not able to understand basic morality even when you explain it to them. That’s just my general overall experience.

Look BH, can we stay on topic. This is neither edifying or spiritual food.

If you were to Google why are Calvinists mean? You will see what I am talking about. So I am not an isolated case.

One poster on Reddit said,
“Since my two best friends have become Calvinist, they have become extremely arrogant and nasty.”

Source:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/2n1d10

LoL, really??? Google is the final authority? Just grab your pick forks and torches and hunt down all ugly Calvinists? How is this edifying or spiritual food?​

You can take it or leave it. But I see that folks do not tend to look at their own beliefs in a negative light because they are not wiling to be objective and or think that they could be wrong. I have changed plenty of times on certain beliefs in the Bible over the years and another poster had actually helped me to see things differently in the book of Hebrews.

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word? Here is my list. #1. I used to believe we had to follow the Old Testament laws in addition to the New Testament laws. Until one day I discovered verses that the New Covenant began with Christ's death and...

www.christianforums.com

No comment, this is not on topic, but a distraction.

My goal is not to endlessly make this same point about how my experiences with Calvinists has been negative and unloving overall. In fact, I am reading a book now that is extremely difficult to read because the author cannot help but to bash his opponents instead of just laying out the biblical evidence that supports his position. The author does have some good evidence biblically and so that is one reason why I am sticking with wanting to finish it. Plus, I promised to read the book, and give a review, as well.

Well, read it, stop being judgmental and bias, because if you are, you will not provide an honest review, just a falsely bias one. For the record, you accuse me of not examining my own position. Which is not Christ-Like to bear false witness. And how honestly can you even think to make such an assumption without asking a person first? I have put in a lot of research, reading and studying, and Classical Calvinism is Biblical truth. I read everything I can get my hands on, from all sides of these debates. There is no novelty in our era, just old debates dressed up in new clothes. These debates have already been debated by the greatest minds in Christendom history. From Christ, the Apostles throughout the ages.​

I love the author in Christ, but I don’t like his continual bashing approach. Granted, we can speak the truth in exposing the wrongs that people do on occasion, but there should be a limit on that. Exposing the truth is not bashing if one is not doing so the whole time and they keep doing so over and over and over and over again with the same people (That have already heard it before). I prefer to use the Bible to make my primary arguments. But I noticed that you did not address the verses I put forth to you, my friend. That is where the real battle is at. So if you want to take up your sword and explain the verses I put forth to you, then by all means. If not, then I see that as a weakness in your argument (biblically speaking). I believe if truth is on our side, and we know that truth, then it should be easy for us to explain the verses that appears to dismantle our belief system. Generally, I do not get engaged often on the discussion of the verses I put forth to you that I believe demolishes Calvinism.

Anyways, may God’s love shine upon you (even if we disagree).

I beg to differ. Because when one reads these debates it should highlight why the other side has made a mistake. Didn't Paul admonish and curse those false apostles in Galatians? When one is misleading others into heresies like Servetus, would you just stand by and allow it? Paul even admonish the Galatians were listening to these false apostles. Growing in the knowledge of the Lord is commanded by God so we are not deceived by false teachers. So being able to distinguished between Law & Gospel in relation to Justification by Faith Alone in the eschatological consummation of the Cross is crucial for all Christians to learn, protect and defend.

And yes I disagree with you, but that doesn't mean we can't be friends, right?

Fun Fact: Did you know that John Wesley preached at George Whitefield's funeral? Though they disagreed they were friends. So, stop spending all your time on who is the most meanest or offensive. And focus as you said on the Doctrines of Soteriology.

​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again my friend you got this wrong. I'll explain and share it with you.

(1) Michael Servetus was a heretic. Heresy was considered tantamount to treason in Geneva, Switzerland. It was a capital crime there and many other parts of Europe during that era. The penalty for heresy was death per the law of the land.

(2) On February 16, 1553, Servetus was denounced as a heretic while in Vienne, France. He was arrested by Roman Catholic authorities on April 4, 1553, but escaped three days later. He was tried in absentia and convicted of heresy on June 17, 1553. En route to Italy, he stopped by Geneva where he was re-arrested by the magisterial council in Geneva on August 13, 1553. An extradition request from France was denied. He was tried in Geneva and was convicted on forty counts of heresy. On October 27, 1553 he was burned at the stake.​

(3) Calvin had warned Servetus not to come to Geneva because he would be punished.

(4) Calvin was not the final authority in Geneva; he wasn't even a citizen of the city until six years later. During the proceedings Calvin was simply a witness. The magisterial council, which was a civil authority, decided such cases, and many of the men sentencing Servetus were actually Calvin's enemies. Calvin did not have authority to condemn or save Servetus.

In the case of Servetus, he believed and taught that God didn't regard that individuals under the age of twenty could commit a moral sin. Thus, the council was fearful that his teaching would give license to the young to commit things such as murder and adultery without fear of punishment (i.e. antinomianism). In addition, though not considered by the council, it was well known that Servetus defended the Koran, the doctrines of which could also erode the social structure of Geneva.

Some accuse Calvin of lighting the match at Servetus' burning because he was an Arminian. But nothing could be further from the truth as Arminianism's founder hadn't even been born yet. It was not listed in the forty-count indictment [1]. But among what was listed is his denial of original sin, his anti-Trinitarian heresy (i.e. see his 1531 book, On the Errors of the Trinity and his 1553 work The Restitution of Christianity) and the denial of the divinity of Christ, pantheism, and the belief that Old Testament saints weren't saved.

Calvin had conversed by letter with Servetus instructing him in the truth from at least 1546 forward. In one letter he wrote, "I neither hate you nor despise you; nor do I wish to persecute you; but I would be as hard as iron when I behold you insulting sound doctrine with so great audacity." He even sent him a copy of his Institutes, which Servetus returned with his own insulting criticisms written therein.​

In addition, during Servetus’s imprisonment at Geneva, Calvin again talked and prayed with him. As J.I. Packer has commented: "Calvin, for the record, showed more pastoral concern for Servetus than anyone else connected with the episode." Even after the conviction, Calvin requested a lighter sentence, asking the court to allow Servetus to die painlessly by beheading. His request wasn't granted. Michael Servetus was burned at the stake.

This is what happened, Calvin did not murder Servetus nor wished him harm, but repeatedly tried to help Michael. He warned him about his heresies (Full Blown Pelagianism), basically condoning Antinomianism under the age of 20 years old, denying Christ's divinity and so forth. Calvin even warned Servetus not to come to Geneva because he would be arrested and convicted of heresy and be sentenced to death. Calvin pleaded for him before the court for him. Calvin went to see him in prison to pray for him and give him comfort. Calvin showed compassion to Michael, even though he was teaching heresies, mocking Calvin by writing in his book (Christian Institutes). But antagonist of Calvin don't want to believe what really happened.

In Servetus' correspondence to Calvin, he thanks Calvin for being kind to him and for being a friend. They were opposed to meet but Servetus never showed up.​

Calvin University says that Calvin was responsible. They are a Reformed University and they believed Calvin was to blame for Servetus’ death. So again, they see things differently than you and they are educated Calvinists of a university. Besides, even if you are right, man made history is not my final word of authority because we are not God to truly know if that history was correct. The Bible is correct and it cannot be altered. So that is where the real battle is to be won. Men can re-write history to their own liking.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have been a Classical Calvinist longer than you, right? So, insinuating that I have not done my homework is a shot the dark, my friend.​

Catholics can say the same thing, and do you believe they are correct?
Granted, I consider Catholicism, and Orthodox, etcetera to be unbiblical.
I tested Calvinism against Scripture and all five points of TULIP are unbiblical big time.
Calvinist’s claims that God ordains evil is also seriously unbiblical and immoral.

Side Note:

Also, if you have all this experience as a Calvinist, and you know you are correct, then you should have easily answered the few verses I put forth to you that demolishes your Calvinistic belief. Then again, this is not my first rodeo or discussion with Calvinists before. In my many years of discussion with Calvinists, generally they do not explain the verses that refutes their belief. But you can break the trend if you like.

Doctrines of Grace is the topics of Salvation. So I will ask you, is a sinner justified by Faith Alone, by Works alone or both?

The Bible teaches we are justified by faith.

Romans 5:1
”Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:”

This faith is how we access God’s grace.

Romans 5:2
”By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”

This is Initial Salvation.

We see this Initial Salvation again in Ephesians 2:8-9.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 ”For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.“

How many times you receive a gift?
Just one time.
So this is talking about how we first get saved (i.e., Initial Salvation).

Ephesians 2:1 says you have been quickened (made alive).
When does that happen?
In your Initial Salvation.

The same is true for Romans 4:3-5, Romans 11:6, and Titus 3:5.
These parts of Scripture are all talking about Initial Salvation.

Paul was fighting against the heresy of “Circumcision Salvationism” (Galatians 5:2, Galatians 2:3, Romans 2:25-29, Romans 3:1).
This is the false belief that said you had to first be circumcised in order to be Initially Saved.
We see this heresy described to us in Acts 15 (See Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24).

In other words, when you read Paul, read it from the viewpoint that he was addressing the heresy of “Circumcision Salvationism” and it will become clear on what he was talking about. Paul was referring to Temporal Belief Alone Salvationism in our Initial Salvation. Paul is not talking about Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism. Paul says shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? He says, God forbid (Romans 6:1-2).

The Bible also teaches we are justified by works.

James says.
”Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).

Paul also taught the same thing:

Titus 1:16
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

So according to the above verse, Paul taught also that a person can deny God by a lack of works.

Galatians 6:8-9
8 “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”

Notice carefully this passage above. You probably never noticed it before. Verse 8 says if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap everlasting life. Verse 9 defines what this “sowing to the Spirit” actually is. It is “well doing” (good works). For verse 9 says for us not be tired in well doing (good works), for we will reap if we faint not. Reap what? Eternal life as verse 8 in context says. Most Protestants are blind to this passage. Those few who are aware of it would naturally seek to do backflip twists with this text, and they do not accept the plain reading of God’s Word in this instance.

1 Timothy 5:8
“But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”

Now, you cannot use the false excuse as other Christians use on this verse and say it is in reference to only false believers. This excuse does not work because this believer who does not provide for his own household is worse than an infidel. An infidel is an unbeliever. In other words, an unbeliever cannot be worse than an unbeliever. That doesn’t make any sense. Paul says this believer who does not provide for their own has also denied the faith. Providing for your household is a good work. So this is a part of salvation.

I am aware of Philippians 2:13 in that God does the good work ultimately through us, but this is a walk with God, and it is not the Lord forcing us against our will. You did not black out and wonder how you helped the poor, and preached the gospel to others.

Also, in James 2:21, it says,
”Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?”

Notice a similar saying.

Hebrews 11:17
”By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:…”

So in James 2:21, Abraham was justified by works by offering Isaac.
Yet, in Hebrews 11:17 it says that BY FAITH Abraham offered up Isaac.
So they are one and the same thing. Works is a part of the faith.
However, works is just a part of our Sanctification (Which is in the secondary washing or aspect of salvation).
Sanctification is living a holy life, putting away sin, and doing good works, etcetera (By the working of the Spirit).

“God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

So believers are saved by God’s grace through faith (Belief Alone) in their Initial Salvation.
Believers are saved by the Sanctification Process to Live a Holy Life (as a part of second washing to be clean -See Leviticus 13:58 as a symbolic picture of this Sanctification).

LoL, really??? Google is the final authority? Just grab your pick forks and torches and hunt down all ugly Calvinists? How is this edifying or spiritual food?

How many times do you use Google or an internet search for every day ordinary things?
Be a detective now. As a part of SEO (Search Engine Optimization) people doing a particular search factors in to the Google algorithm.

Check out the top part of this article here to see what I am talking about.

Why Do Many Christians Think Calvinists Are Arrogant Jerks?

Typing why are Calvinists in Google is one clue into a serious debate among Christian denominations over whether Reformed Theology, also called Calvinism, actually pushes seekers away from

www.christianpost.com

I beg to differ. Because when one reads these debates it should highlight why the other side has made a mistake. Didn't Paul admonish and curse those false apostles in Galatians? When one is misleading others into heresies like Servetus, would you just stand by and allow it?​

Jesus teaches His followers Non-Violence while they are alive (Which will obviously change after they lived out their faith because faithful believers will return to follow Christ into battle at His second coming). But while Christians are here on this Earth living out their faith, their orders are to do no violence to any man.

Non-Violence as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good.

Non-Violence as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good: Christians are to walk by faith and not by sight. For without faith, it is impossible to please God. Trusting in the verses or passages in the Bible on non-violence takes faith. You have to first believe these words in the Bible...

www.christianforums.com

Paul even admonish the Galatians were listening to these false apostles. Growing in the knowledge of the Lord is commanded by God so we are not deceived by false teachers. So being able to distinguished between Law & Gospel in relation to Justification by Faith Alone in the eschatological consummation of the Cross is crucial for all Christians to learn, protect and defend.​

When Paul condemned Law and works, he was referring to the 613 laws of Moses as a whole or package deal and “Works ALONE Salvationism” (that did not include God’s grace). Yes, certain Laws in the 613 have carried over into the New Testament, but that does not mean we are not to obey the Laws or commands of Jesus.

Paul taught,

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4). According to James 4:6, God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Doctrines of Grace is the topics of Salvation. So I will ask you, is a sinner justified by Faith Alone, by Works alone or both?

​

I believe the Bible teaches:

Brief Introduction:

God’s grace is accessed by faith (Romans 5:1-2).​

We can labor more abundantly (Sanctification) by God’s grace (1 Corinthians 15:10) and God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Sanctification) (Titus 2:11-12). Sanctification is by the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that Christ might present to Himself a church that is holy, and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-27). Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).​

​

Calvinists believe that faith and repentance are enforced upon an individual by God as a result of a regeneration (or conversion) before faith and repentance. They cannot resist this faith and repentance once they are regenerated (According to Calvinists). But this is not what the Bible teaches. The wicked perish because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved according to 2 Thessalonians 2:10. Jesus desires to gather Jerusalem as chicks beneath His wings but they would not allow Him to do so (Matthew 23:37). So God is not involved in forcing a select few people (based on no conditions) into the Kingdom.​

Anyways, here is my Biblical case for the two aspects of salvation:
(as a part of God’s plan of salvation):

Aspect of Salvation #1.
God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior:
(Initial Salvation and or Foundational Salvation)
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer)

Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as one's Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12) and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e., confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e., the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a "good work" to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).​

Aspect of Salvation #2.
Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life & A Belief of the Truth:
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process)
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer)

This is based on 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 (Which is the call of the gospel; Note: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is not the gospel. It is simply the call of the gospel; For the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).​

​

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14​

​

13 “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation ​

through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:​

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,..”​

​

This secondary aspect of salvation in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is in two parts. It is a two-part intertwined secondary aspect of salvation (Which joins the cord of Initial Salvation or Foundational Salvation in being saved by God’s grace). Within this second aspect of salvation has two parts; we need to understand that one does not exist without the other (Note: The following is mentioned in order according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and it is not stating that one cannot proceed with the other or vice versa).​

​

(a). Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. Believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically, all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example, Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like, Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor who is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, Galatians 6:8-9, etc.).​

​

(b) A Belief of the Truth is also another secondary synergistic intertwined aspect of salvation for the believer (in addition to Sanctification of the Holy Spirit). We need to study to show ourselves approved unto God according to 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJB). We need to hold to certain correct doctrines or teachings in God’s Word. One example: It is implied that denying the bodily resurrection means one’s faith is overthrown (See: 2 Timothy 2:17-18). So we need to study God’s Word (the Holy Bible) and hold to its truths. Now, does that mean one is not saved if they don’t know of the bodily resurrection? I don’t believe so. I believe that is what God’s grace is for. But once a key core doctrine of God’s Word is revealed to a believer, they cannot reject it. So a "belief of the truth" is similar to Sanctification. A Christian must grow in the knowledge of God’s Word and accept its beautiful fundamental truths. Does holding to all truths in the Bible save? Well, I don’t think a belief in the Nephilim saves (although it is a truth taught in His Word). But I believe there are other foundational truths we must eventually learn and accept as Christians. The Spirit will guide a believer into all truth within God’s Word.​

​

For even more clarity, I created two pics to help illustrate the two aspects of salvation as taught in the Bible.

God's grace is a process of salvation without works because it is based on His mercy and grace, and redemption that He accomplished for us with His death, burial, and resurrection. We can come boldly unto the throne of grace, and obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need (Hebrews 4:15). God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). Being saved by God's grace is different than living righteously but yet they are connected. The Bible says we are saved by God's grace without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), and the Bible also says works are needed as a part of salvation (1 Peter 4:18-19) (Matthew 3:10), too. It's not a contradiction if one understands that the Bible is talking about different points in time for the believer.

Proof that there are two aspects or two different types of salvation:

Salvation by God's grace without works (Initial Salvation):

#1. Babies (who died) are saved by God's grace without works.​

​

#2. The thief on the cross was saved by God's grace without works.​

​

#3. Men who are about to die in a hospital bed can receive Jesus as their Savior and be saved without doing any kind of work.​

Salvation by Sanctification (Secondary Aspect of Salvation), which includes putting away sin, doing good works, and living a holy life by the power of God (Which happens AFTER we are saved by God's grace):

#1. James says, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17). Can a dead faith without works save you? Obviously James is referring to what happens after we have been saved by God's grace otherwise James would be contradicting Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9.​

​

#2. John the Baptist says axe is laid to the root of the tree, and therefore bring forth fruits worthy of repentance; otherwise, one will be cut down and thrown into the fire (Matthew 3:10). So John the Baptist is saying you need to do good works or you will not be saved.​

​

#3. Jesus talks about those who helped the poor in this life as entering the kingdom (Which is a good work), vs. those who did not help the poor in this life and were told to depart into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:31-46). Obviously, Jesus is saying this as a requirement for us to do as a part of being a part of His good kingdom. None of these things here on this particular list is in reference to salvation by God's grace without works, as mentioned by the apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9.​

​

So, in conclusion:

I believe the Bible teaches that there are two aspects of salvation. A symbolic picture of this second washing to be clean is found in Leviticus 13:58. That is why there are verses teaching how we are saved by God’s grace through faith without works, and there are other verses teaching we must live holy as a part of entering the Kingdom.


Side Note:

I believe “water baptism” is not a part of salvation, but it is a requirement of the faith, but it takes place within the Secondary Aspect of Salvation (In living a holy life by the Spirit). I say this because it may take time for the believer to find the right body of believers and be baptized by them (Especially in these last days when men seek to justify sin and wrongdoing). If they cannot find any body of believers, they should seek to be baptized by a close brother or spouse. Gentile believers like Cornelius were first saved initially solely by God’s grace without works before they were water baptized. The Jews in Acts 2 were being called back to God to accept their Messiah. So their baptism in water was a form of getting them also to confess their sins to the Lord. Acts 2 is not a call to Initial Salvation. The Jews already believed in God (Unlike most Gentiles). So I disagree with groups like the Church of Christ and the Catholic Church who say you must first be water baptized in order to be initially saved. A person is first saved by God’s grace through faith without works. That is how salvation begins. But that is not how it continues or ends, though. Clearly we do need to live holy and keep the Lord’s commands in the New Testament as a part of eternal life, as well. But this is only in the Secondary Aspect of Salvation.

 

[ladodgers6]

Calvin University says that Calvin was responsible. They are a Reformed University and they believed Calvin was to blame for Servetus’ death. So again, they see things differently than you and they are educated Calvinists of a university. Besides, even if you are right, man made history is not my final word of authority because we are not God to truly know if that history was correct. The Bible is correct and it cannot be altered. So that is where the real battle is to be won. Men can re-write history to their own liking.

Okay, whatever you say. You can ignore history, and try to pin it on Calvin. It wouldn't be the first time a Reformer was falsely charged, right?

 

[ladodgers6]

The Bible teaches we are justified by faith.

Romans 5:1
”Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:”

This faith is how we access God’s grace.

Romans 5:2
”By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”

This is Initial Salvation.

This is kinda vague can you expand further? This is why I ask, does faith come prior to Grace then? How does Faith access God's Grace?

I read this passages, and what I like to do is always read the run of passages to get context. This passage is "very instructively the Apostle here connects "through our Lord Jesus Christ" and "by Faith." He first directs himself against the arrogance of those who believe that they have access to God without Christ, just as though their mere believing would suffice for salvation. They want to have access to God by faith, yet not through Christ, but pass Christ, just as though they had no need for Christ. Their desires to have access to God without Christ, by their bare faith, means to reject salvation of Christ. Such a faith is not true faith, but counterfeit. By their sham faith they do not have access to God." ---Luther​

Romans 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith

The previous verse says, 1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. It's in Christ that we receive the Grace in which we now stand and are redeemed, saved. So now we can rejoice in our sufferings, and grow as Christians believers because now we have peace with God through Christ.
​

We see this Initial Salvation again in Ephesians 2:8-9.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 ”For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.“

How many times you receive a gift?
Just one time.
So this is talking about how we first get saved (i.e., Initial Salvation).

Your Initial Grace Illumination is kinda confusing and ambiguous. Yes, a gift is free and given once, which also saves a sinner the moment he/she believes in who Christ is and what he has done. And not trying to locate their salvation in their response to the Gospel but rather in the Gospel itself.​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Okay, whatever you say. You can ignore history, and try to pin it on Calvin. It wouldn't be the first time a Reformer was falsely charged, right?

I do not put the same stock or faith in history as you do.

Also, is a Calvinist University going to be to blame for saying that Calvin was involved in Michael’s death? Again, as I said before, I don’t put much trust in man made history. I see the scenario as Calvin killing his theologically proponents as being a likely possibility because of my bad experiences with Calvinists in my own life. I did not have this experience as often with Non-Calvinists. I am just telling you my experience was primarily negative with them. Could you be right about your version of history? Sure. I am not denying that possibility, but as I said before, you cannot get around the Bible refuting Calvinism. One cannot alter the Word of God (Which is where this battle is to truly be won).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is kinda vague can you expand further? This is why I ask, does faith come prior to Grace then? How does Faith access God's Grace?

I read this passages, and what I like to do is always read the run of passages to get context. This passage is "very instructively the Apostle here connects "through our Lord Jesus Christ" and "by Faith." He first directs himself against the arrogance of those who believe that they have access to God without Christ, just as though their mere believing would suffice for salvation. They want to have access to God by faith, yet not through Christ, but pass Christ, just as though they had no need for Christ. Their desires to have access to God without Christ, by their bare faith, means to reject salvation of Christ. Such a faith is not true faith, but counterfeit. By their sham faith they do not have access to God." ---Luther​

Romans 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith

You are not looking at the broader context.

Romans 4 is about how Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Abraham was justified by believing the promise of God without works before he was even circumcised (Which was a work).

Belief (faith) is the whole point of Romans 4.

This then plays into our reading of Romans 5:1-2.

Romans 5:1-2 says,
1 ”Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”

So what do the words in verse 1 mean that say, “Therefore being justified by faith”?

Well, it is referring back to Romans 4 and the example Paul was using in how we are justified by faith.

After Paul says, “Therefore being justified by faith” he then says we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Verse 2 is merely saying that by Jesus (the object of our faith) is by whom we have access by faith into this grace.

There is nothing here about the Calvinistic regeneration that proceeds faith here that you are so desperately trying to squeeze here into the text.

Then Romans 5 goes into talking about the Provisional Atonement.

But it must be said…

We have ACCESS to God’s grace by faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).
For by grace are you saved THROUGH faith (Ephesians 2:8).

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

This would be the Bible.

So faith is how we access God’s grace. There is no other way.

The previous verse says, 1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. It's in Christ that we receive the Grace in which we now stand and are redeemed, saved.​

Again, that is not what verse 1 says. You are reading a Calvinistic regeneration into verse 1 that is not there. “Therefore being justified by faith” (Which is a continuation of Romans 4 on believing to be justified) it then gives us the next thing that happens after, which is…. We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Verse 2 is saying by whom (Jesus) we have access by faith. We gain access by faith. It’s not we gain access by a regeneration. We believe in Jesus as our Savior. This is what it means by whom means in Romans 5:2. We believe the gospel message to be saved In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 says,
1 “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”

So the Corinthians received the preaching of the gospel message (verse 1) that saved them (verse 2), and this message is….

Christ died for our sins (verse 3), and He was buried, and He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures (verse 4).

Believing this message by faith is what saves us when we first come to God.

We see an example of this with Cornelius and his family.

In Acts 10, when they heard Peter tell them the gospel message.

Peter said to Cornelius and his household
“…whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day,…” (Acts 10:39-40).

“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10:43).

Then the amazing thing happened.

Acts 10:44
”While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”

Cornelius received the downpayment of his inheritance (Ephesians 1:13-14) (Note: KJB says “earnest” which means “downpayment.”).

This was simply be believing in Him (Jesus) whereby one would receive the remission of sins.

Remission of sins is salvation. This is Initial Salvation. It’s not in some imaginary Calvinistic regeneration that proceeds faith.

Again, 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Matthew 23:37, Jonah 3:6-10, etcetera.

Your Initial Grace Illumination is kinda confusing and ambiguous.​

God can illuminate the Word of God to a person so that they can see the truth at certain points in their life, and then it is up to the person to receive or reject that truth of their own free will choice under that illumination.

Yes, a gift is free and given once, which also saves a sinner the moment he/she believes in who Christ is and what he has done. And not trying to locate their salvation in their response to the Gospel but rather in the Gospel itself.​

The Calvinist believes they are saved prior to faith with a pre-regeneration (i.e., Unconditional Election). However, this is immoral because if God chooses some to be saved based on absolutely no conditions, then why doesn’t He save them all by this method?

For example:
It would be like a coast guard saving everyone on a lifeboat except for you and your family and when you ask him why he is not saving you and your family, he says.... “No reason, I just do not want to save you.” “You should be thankful that I am saving these other people.”

Or it would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room like a football because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem (because it is sick) whereby the dog squeezes out hot piles of steamy goodness on his master's white carpets. So instead of the master taking his dog to the vet and trying to help him, he just decides to kick the poor animal and to punish it (When the animal has no control over it's pooping function).

That's kind of how I see Calvinism. For it is called UNconditional Election. Meaning, God is not electing anyone based upon any conditions found within the individual. So God is simply creating many for the express purpose to be tortured for all eternity. That is their destiny that they cannot escape and God has chosen this only path for them. God wants many lives to suffer for all eternity and we should just be thankful that He saves a few even when He has the power to save them all (But He simply doesn't). This does not sound like the loving God of the Bible.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hello everyone!
I am really struggling with the concepts in Calvinism.
About a month ago, I broke down as I considered the conclusions that Calvinism led me to. I even cried at the kitchen table considering it. I cannot think of any way that this group of ideas does not lead to the conclusion that God is the author of sin, which He is NOT. God does not tempt any man to sin.
But according to Calvinism, all men are not just born spiritually dead, they cannot even recognize any goodness to be found in the Gospel unless God regenerates them first. I am so confused by this- did not Adam and Eve come to know good from evil by partaking of the fruit?
In no way am I insinuating that they are naturally inclined to seek God or can attain the righteousness that God requires. They need God's grace to be reconciled to Him. But I thought that God invites all men, but only some accept the free gift of salvation.

God has made known to men his law (through the Mosaic law to Jews and the natural conscience to Gentiles [through which they become "a law unto themselves"]), and through the incarnation, Jesus Christ- His perfect sinless life and His offer to bear the sins of men and become a ransom for them. So, all men are without excuse. Everyone, therefore, has the ability to repent; God has revealed Himself to everyone. So, if someone does not repent, is it not their fault?

From what I have understood, the fault is on mankind for rejecting God. But according to Calvinism, it is God that actively chooses who will be saved (and, by consequence, who will not). So, was it God who first made Adam and Eve sin in the Garden, then? Calvin himself has said, "God, in a secret and marvellous way, justly wills, the things which men unjustly do." . . . "Although God and the devil will the same thing: they do so in an utterly different manner." The last quotation is just profoundly disgusting to me for reasons I don't think I even have to explain. The former quotation also disgusts me because it contradicts the Bible (I believe so, at least), and puts the blame on God. I do not deny that God uses the sin of people for his glorious purpose! Because God is in control of everything and can even use sinners for the greater good. God is completely sovereign and uses all things for good.

I have agreed with the traditional Southern Baptist view of predestination. I affirm total depravity to the extent the Bible does (men are totally depraved but can still recognize their need for a savior) and eternal security absolutely. With the rest, I hold to a typical "Arminian" view.

I also just feel an extreme aversion to agree with Calvin after taking a look at his life. I've read historical articles about him that weren't even trying to paint him in a bad light (from secular sources!), and I was appalled to hear about his life. I don't know, I don't like taking theology from someone who burns his theological opponents at the stake (AND did it in the name of our Savior. It's not like he wasn't a professing believer at the time. I am simply examining his fruit. I apologize if I put it a bit too harshly, but that seems to be what happened).

I just want to worship God, though. I will always thank Him for what He has done- saving me by grace through Christ's sacrifice on my behalf. I just want to worship Him, however He is like.

I worship Him because He is love. He is just and merciful. These are things I know from the Bible, and I trust His word.

I am someone who struggles with doubt, though. This really makes me doubt sometimes. What if I am wrong after all, and the Calvinists are more correct about God than I am?

I feel tempted to say that I would not worship the "God of Calvinism", just because I know God is not unjust. But would this condemn me? This is the thing I am most worried about, and the reason why I write this. That's why I am asking you all. I am really struggling here.

What I want to do is just affirm what is in the Bible and not take sides. Not try to figure everything out. But, it is in my personality to desire to figure everything out. Whenever people describe me, that is the first attribute they refer to. People describe me as someone who cannot rest until I know all I can, someone who investigates and needs answers.

I am content with just affirming what the Bible says. But if I say "if God is the God that Calvinism proposes, I do not want Him" is that wrong? Right now, I am willing to accept Him, even that way. I will still find Him merciful. But I just don't want to accept Him reluctantly. I want to accept Him with my full heart. I love God, I really do. He is the author of all good things. He created me and made me in His image. He gave me a purpose in life. Even when I messed up, He had mercy on me. Even in that sorry state, He sets before me good works for me to walk in. He says that I can be His child. Everything about Him is beautiful. But I am struggling here. I know it is just grace through faith that saves me. I know I am saved. But if I knock down and refute how Calvinists portray Him, and I am wrong, will He say to me, "depart from me, I never knew you"? Because I would be cursing Him to His face if I did that. And I love Him, I don't want to do that.

That is my honest question. Please help me. I am really struggling with this.

Calvinism is so easily refuted by the scriptures but I think what’s more important is that, are the doctrines of Calvinism even worth worrying about? It seems that the parts you are struggling with deal with how and if God chooses people to be saved. The Bible gives several passages indicating God trying to save people who still refuse to repent.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Jesus says this to people who were seeking to kill Him.

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Then right after He tells them that Moses will be the one to condemn them because they don’t believe.

“How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?””
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭44‬-‭47‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Just by these three examples we can see God trying to save people who refuse to repent and believe, so does God really choose who will repent and be saved and who won’t? It seems by these three passages, and there are several more examples in scripture, but these three examples show God trying to save people who won’t be saved. I think what’s more important is to just trust in Him and not worry too much about the details of how He saves people. That’s not really relevant to your salvation. You know that God is not an immoral tyrant, He is a loving and merciful God who wants all men to repent and be saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

None of the above makes God the author of sin, or unjust.
Nor do any of his enemies, the unregenerate who will not submit to him to be governed by him in all things, have a just claim to his love.
He is completely just (having fulfilled all justice), as well as completely sovereign, owing no one anything, sovereignly dispensing his favor/love (i.e., new birth, the guarantee of everything else) as he pleases, and is as unaccountable as the wind in doing so (Jn 3:7-8).

Salvation is a matter of repentance not sin. Everyone has sinned. What separates the saved from the condemned is not sin but repentance. Calvinism teaches that man is incapable of repentance unless God enables them to repent. Therefore God’s punishment on those He didn’t elect is unjust.

Furthermore Calvinism teaches that man is incapable of doing anything that pleases God including obeying Him. This would mean that those who are not elected are being punished for all eternity for failing to meet God’s impossible expectations.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Doctrines of Grace is the topics of Salvation. So I will ask you, is a sinner justified by Faith Alone, by Works alone or both?

Is justification final? Can someone who has been reconciled to God not provoke Him to anger again and be in danger of His wrath?

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Clare73]

Salvation is a matter of repentance not sin.

Well, actually, salvation is from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on our sin, by faith in Jesus' atonement which satisfies the justice of God on that sin.

Everyone has sinned. What separates the saved from the condemned is not sin but repentance.

What separates them from sin, according to the NT, is faith in and trust on the atoning work (blood, 3:25) and person of Jesus Cheist for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice.

Calvinism teaches that man is incapable of repentance unless God enables them to repent. Therefore God’s punishment on those He didn’t elect is unjust.

Not quite, review post #11 where justice is thoroughly explained.

All are guilty of sin and enemies of God (Ro 5:10), and the King does not owe forgiveness to those in rebellion who will not submit to his rule.
Therefore, he is not unjust when he does not give them foregiveness.
And God is free to give his grace to whom he chooses, he owes it to no one, and cannot be accused of injustice for not giving them what he does not owe them.

Furthermore Calvinism teaches that man is incapable of doing anything that pleases God including obeying Him. This would mean that those who are not elected are being punished for all eternity for failing to meet God’s impossible expectations.

God does not owe anything to his rebellious enemies who will not submit to the King's rule.

Yours is the mind of man, not the mind of Scripture.

 

[ladodgers6]

Salvation is a matter of repentance not sin. Everyone has sinned. What separates the saved from the condemned is not sin but repentance. Calvinism teaches that man is incapable of repentance unless God enables them to repent.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Salvation is a matter of sin, that's what God in Christ is saving us from. Matthew 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” Sin is what separates us from God. When a sinner is justified in Christ through Faith they can now live for God.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

You state that Calvinism teaches that man is incapable of repentance unless God enables them. Before I answer this question, explain your view of the Fall and the gravity of sin. Please, by all means define it as much with detail, thanks.​

Therefore God’s punishment on those He didn’t elect is unjust.

Everyone has sinned is correct. So they are being punished for what they do, correct? Read Romans 9.

Furthermore Calvinism teaches that man is incapable of doing anything that pleases God including obeying Him. This would mean that those who are not elected are being punished for all eternity for failing to meet God’s impossible expectations.

Again explain the fall and the curse upon all fallen humanity? Should the Governor release all serial killers, serial pedophiles, serial rapists and so forth because they cannot meet the impossible expectation of civil and moral Law? Doesn't make any sense. They do what they love to do, and hate the light.

John 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

So reading the passages above, what do you see?​

 

[ladodgers6]

Is justification final? Can someone who has been reconciled to God not provoke Him to anger again and be in danger of His wrath?

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Do you believe God has a Plan of Salvation? Or is Salvation random and only possible?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Then Romans 5 goes into talking about the Provisional Atonement and comparing it with how Adam brought death (Note: We see a parallel of this in 1 Corinthians 15).

Where does Romans 5 go "into talking about the Provisional Atonement and comparing it with how Adam brought death"? And where is a parallel of "Provisional Atonement" show up in 1 Corinthians 15?

Sounds like you are adding something in there.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Where does Romans 5 go "into talking about the Provisional Atonement and comparing it with how Adam brought death"? And where is a parallel of "Provisional Atonement" show up in 1 Corinthians 15?

Sounds like you are adding something in there.

My apologies. I made a mistake about the Provisional Atonement showing up in 1 Corinthians 15. I meant Romans 5. You can learn about those verses that teach the Provisional Atonement in my write up here:

The Four Aspects of Salvation.

The Four Aspects of Salvation: When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described. #1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement"). (A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by being saved by God's grace and...

www.christianforums.com

 

[BNR32FAN]

Again explain the fall and the curse upon all fallen humanity? Should the Governor release all serial killers, serial pedophiles, serial rapists and so forth because they cannot meet the impossible expectation of civil and moral Law? Doesn't make any sense. They do what they love to do, and hate the light.

Should the governor provide those people with the ability to meet said expectations if he is able to?

John 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

So reading the passages above, what do you see?

I see people making a choice to either do wickedness or good. I see people being able to choose to come to Christ or not. Notice in John 3:19 that not everyone avoids the light. Some come to the light and some don’t. Sin is not the determining factor for salvation repentance is. Now correct me if I’m wrong but Calvinists teach that everyone is incapable of repentance if God does not enable them to. Do you agree?

The scriptures say that Jesus is the Savior of the world. The scriptures say that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world not just our sins. Jesus paid for the sins of everyone that’s why He will be the One tho choose who will enter heaven and who won’t. He paid the price so He will be the One to hand out the tickets as He sees fit. Yes sin is the cause of our condemnation but everyone was condemned at one point until they repented and came to Christ. So again sin is not the determining factor for salvation, repentance is. People don’t get thrown into the lake of fire because of their sin they get thrown in because they refused to repent. Salvation is not determined by sin, sin is a moot point thanks to Christ’s sacrifice.

 

[Mark Quayle]

My apologies. I made a mistake about the Provisional Atonement showing up in 1 Corinthians 15. I meant Romans 5. You can learn about those verses that teach the Provisional Atonement in my write up here:

The Four Aspects of Salvation.

The Four Aspects of Salvation: When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described. #1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement"). (A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by being saved by God's grace and...

www.christianforums.com

But if Christ's atonement is only provisional, how is it actual? You said he "paid the price". Did he actually, or not? To my way of reading your write-up, you are equivocating.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you believe God has a Plan of Salvation? Or is Salvation random and only possible?

I believe salvation is random and God has foreseen the outcome hence we are chosen according to His foreknowledge.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I believe salvation is random and God has foreseen the outcome hence we are chosen according to His foreknowledge.

How, exactly does "random" even come to be? Isn't that self-contradictory? What happens is, after all, very specific!