Please help me figure this out!

[BNR32FAN]

You state that Calvinism teaches that man is incapable of repentance unless God enables them. Before I answer this question, explain your view of the Fall and the gravity of sin. Please, by all means define it as much with detail, thanks.

I believe what the church has always taught about the fall.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedienceand the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.



2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.



3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.



4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39

Iranaeus refuted Calvinism 1300 years before John Calvin was even born. Man didn’t receive his sinful nature after the fall he was created with it otherwise there wouldn’t have been a fall to begin with. If Adam didn’t have a sinful nature before he sinned he wouldn’t have sinned. Adam had no knowledge of sin until he sinned but he was obviously capable of committing sin. And every person has received that same nature. Everyone is capable of doing both good and evil. We didn’t inherit the guilt of Adam’s sin we inherited his sinful nature. We are not condemned by Adam’s sin we are condemned by our own sin. Death came to all because all sinned. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. The son shall not bear the punishment of the father.

 

[BNR32FAN]

How, exactly does "random" even come to be? Isn't that self-contradictory? What happens is, after all, very specific!

No offense brother but I think our discussion on this subject are pretty much pointless by now. We’ve done this so many times and I’m not really interested in doing it all over again in this discussion. I love and respect you as a brother in Christ but I don’t see any point is arguing our theology anymore. I just don’t think it would be fruitful for either of us and I worry that it only causes division between which I don’t enjoy. I love Christ, you love Christ, and I consider you as a brother and I’d like to just leave it as that my friend.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But if Christ's atonement is only provisional, how is it actual? You said he "paid the price". Did he actually, or not? To my way of reading your write-up, you are equivocating.

Let me explain it in another way. Besides those who worship the beast in the future (Revelation 13:8) (Revelation 17:8), everyone had their name in the book of life before the foundation of the world. This is how John the baptist could say, “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29). Jesus did not take away the sin of the world in the sense that He went to the cross already while John said these words to John the Baptist, but He did so based on the promise of God. The promise of God was so sure and so 100% accurate it was seen as done in God’s eyes. The promise of Christ dying for mankind’s sins is in the fact that everyone had their name in the book of life before this Earth was ever created (Which is only made possible by Christ going to the cross). Babies who die are saved by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. However, if a baby grows up to be old enough (i.e., an older child or teen possibly) to be held accountable for sin, then their name is blotted out of the book of life on account of their sin (See: Revelation 3:5). So if they are in known sin, then they need to become born again by believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day for their salvation. They need to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ calling out “Lord Jesus” (Romans 10:9) (Romans 10:13) (Hebrews 4:16). They need to forsake sin and never seek to sin again (with the intention of overcoming it). For he that that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). By doing so, their name can be placed back into the book of life. For those who are held accountable to sin, faith is the key to access God’s saving grace and in having their name reinstated back into the book of life. Faith starts off as a belief, but then it quickly will include the Sanctification of the believer to live a holy life by the Spirit.

So the sins were taken away at the foundation of the world (in connection to the fact that all had their name originally in the book of life), based on God’s promise; However, in order for a person to stay connected to the book of life and God’s grace through Christ’s sacrifice, if they grow up and sin, they need to be reinstated back into the book of life again and be reinstated back to His grace. The Parable of the Prodigal Son shows this truth (using other words), as well.

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32), was the prodigal son saved while he was living it up with prostitutes? No. How do we know? Well, when the prodigal son came home to his father (seeking forgiveness with him), his father said he was “dead” and “alive AGAIN” two times within the parable. His father also said that he was “lost” and now he is “found”, too. Generally when we speak of the lost in the Bible, it is referring to those who are not saved. So the prodigal son was dead spiritually while he was living it up with prostitutes, and he became alive AGAIN spiritually when he came back home to his father and sought forgiveness with him. This same truth is expressed in James 5:19-20, too.

I hope this helps, and may God’s good ways shine upon you today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Should the governor provide those people with the ability to meet said expectations if he is able to?





I see people making a choice to either do wickedness or good. I see people being able to choose to come to Christ or not. Notice in John 3:19 that not everyone avoids the light. Some come to the light and some don’t. Sin is not the determining factor for salvation repentance is. Now correct me if I’m wrong but Calvinists teach that everyone is incapable of repentance if God does not enable them to. Do you agree?

The scriptures say that Jesus is the Savior of the world. The scriptures say that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world not just our sins. Jesus paid for the sins of everyone that’s why He will be the One tho choose who will enter heaven and who won’t. He paid the price so He will be the One to hand out the tickets as He sees fit. Yes sin is the cause of our condemnation but everyone was condemned at one point until they repented and came to Christ. So again sin is not the determining factor for salvation, repentance is. People don’t get thrown into the lake of fire because of their sin they get thrown in because they refused to repent. Salvation is not determined by sin, sin is a moot point thanks to Christ’s sacrifice.

Actually, they get thrown into the Lake of Fire because of sin (i.e., unrepentant sin). Sin is still the wages of death. Revelation 21:8 lists those who do various sins who will have their part in the Lake of Fire. If a person does not turn away from their sins, and seek to overcome them in this life, they are gonna face God’s judgment or Wrath. It will be their sin that would lead them to hell. Yes, they can change course, and repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus), but this involves living a righteous life and following Jesus. Without doing that, there is no hope. People can say they can just believe on Jesus for salvation, but if there is no sorrow over one’s sins and if one does not seek forgiveness with the Lord and turn for good away from sin, they are not going to make it into God’s Kingdom.

 

[ladodgers6]

Should the governor provide those people with the ability to meet said expectations if he is able to?

So you would give serial killers, raptists, pedophiles a pass since it is unfair to hold people to expectation they cannot keep.

I see people making a choice to either do wickedness or good. I see people being able to choose to come to Christ or not. Notice in John 3:19 that not everyone avoids the light. Some come to the light and some don’t. Sin is not the determining factor for salvation repentance is. Now correct me if I’m wrong but Calvinists teach that everyone is incapable of repentance if God does not enable them to. Do you agree?

So you believe that the here and now. All people are basically good and have to come to a decision that will determine they fate?

The scriptures say that Jesus is the Savior of the world. The scriptures say that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world not just our sins. Jesus paid for the sins of everyone that’s why He will be the One tho choose who will enter heaven and who won’t. He paid the price so He will be the One to hand out the tickets as He sees fit.

So if Christ is the propitiation of all sins of the world and he paid in full for the sins of everyone. Then why are people going to hell?

Yes sin is the cause of our condemnation but everyone was condemned at one point until they repented and came to Christ. So again sin is not the determining factor for salvation, repentance is. People don’t get thrown into the lake of fire because of their sin they get thrown in because they refused to repent. Salvation is not determined by sin, sin is a moot point thanks to Christ’s sacrifice.

No Sir, repentance is not the determining factor in our Salvation, its Christ and his works. From the living vine comes the fruits. Apples do not come before the tree or its roots. Know that our newness of life flows from our being Justified in Christ.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Our mediator has to restore the relationship prior to us being able to live to God, correct?​

 

[ladodgers6]

I believe salvation is random and God has foreseen the outcome hence we are chosen according to His foreknowledge.

Well, I suggest you go back and research it further. Because God does has a Plan of Redemption. Do some homework, and I'll share it with you.​

 

[ladodgers6]

You are not looking at the broader context.

Romans 4 is about how Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Abraham was justified by believing the promise of God without works before he was even circumcised (Which was a work).

Not just circumcision, but the whole book of the Law (Galatians 3). Paul also says that no flesh will be justified through Law. Why? Because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We must be perfect as God is perfect, but that can longer happen, for all sinners are under the curse of Law; which is a ministry of death for sinners. But the Law when exposing our sinful condition and the threats of the sanctions for breaching the Law, comes like a thunder storm, as on Mt. Sinai!​

Belief (faith) is the whole point of Romans 4.

This then plays into our reading of Romans 5:1-2.

Romans 5:1-2 says,
1 ”Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”

So what do the words in verse 1 mean that say, “Therefore being justified by faith”?

Well, it is referring back to Romans 4 and the example Paul was using in how we are justified by faith.

After Paul says, “Therefore being justified by faith” he then says we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Verse 2 is merely saying that by Jesus (the object of our faith) is by whom we have access by faith into this grace.

There is nothing here about the Calvinistic regeneration that proceeds faith here that you are so desperately trying to squeeze here into the text.

Good I hope you are understanding it now. Because without Justification by Faith Alone apart from works of the Law. Nothing else matters; there is redemption. This is why both Luther & Calvin said this is the article upon which the church stands or falls. If ones doesn't get this right, they do not have the good news, only exhortation. In Romans 4 Paul is using a juxtaposition between works & gift. By works a man is owed a debt for his services rendered. But a free gift is not earned but given freely and this is the good news for the ungodly! Because the ungodly have no chance in fulfilling the Law demands. They are already convicted and condemned. But God who is the Just and the Justifier provides a propitiation; a substitute, who takes our place and becomes a curse for us by hanging on the tree meant for us! And in turn we receive Christ's righteousness while we are still ungodly, and God declares we us righteous because of Christ! Faith passively receives and rests on Christ and his perfect holy merits which earned a debt owed! And it's only in this can we boast and find peace with God!

God does justify the believing man, yet not for the worthiness of his believing, but for the worthiness in whom is believed; namely Christ Jesus and his merits!​

 

[BNR32FAN]

So you would give serial killers, raptists, pedophiles a pass since it is unfair to hold people to expectation they cannot keep.

That’s not what I asked. You’re avoiding the question. Should the governor provide those people with the ability to meet his expectations if he is able to?

Let me ask it another way. Would it be just for God to command that everyone must read a document written in Japanese out loud or they will be thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity but no one knew Japanese but He decides to teach some of the people Japanese but not the rest? Would that be just for those He didn’t teach? They have no way of cooperating it is absolutely impossible for them to comply. That’s what Calvinism teaches. That man is absolutely incapable of repentance unless God enables them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So you believe that the here and now. All people are basically good and have to come to a decision that will determine they fate?

Didn’t say all people are good, but they can repent and turn to God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So if Christ is the propitiation of all sins of the world and he paid in full for the sins of everyone. Then why are people going to hell?

I explained that.

Jesus paid for the sins of everyone that’s why He will be the One tho choose who will enter heaven and who won’t. He paid the price so He will be the One to hand out the tickets as He sees fit.

Just because He paid the price doesn’t mean He is obligated to allow everyone to enter. It also doesn’t mean that everyone is justified to God. Jesus is the One who determines who is justified and who is not.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No Sir, repentance is not the determining factor in our Salvation, its Christ and his works. From the living vine comes the fruits. Apples do not come before the tree or its roots. Know that our newness of life flows from our being Justified in Christ.

It’s our cooperation with His will that makes us eligible to receive His atonement, which by definition is repentance.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Our mediator has to restore the relationship prior to us being able to live to God, correct?

Ok I’ll answer this by quoting three verses and asking two questions.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭33‬-‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here’s my two questions

1 Were these people capable of repentance?

2 Was their relationship with God restored?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well, I suggest you go back and research it further. Because God does has a Plan of Redemption. Do some homework, and I'll share it with you.

Feel free to take a look at my profile, I have over 17,000 posts here on CF, that alone should give some Indication of how much research and homework I’ve done. Can you provide one single shred of evidence from the early church writers to support Calvin’s theology? Preferably from the first two centuries because after all we are trying to determine exactly what the early church taught. It’s no secret that reformed theology didn’t exist before the 16th century and has been refuted by every single church established by the apostles. So yes I have done my homework, have you?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not just circumcision, but the whole book of the Law (Galatians 3). Paul also says that no flesh will be justified through Law. Why? Because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We must be perfect as God is perfect, but that can longer happen, for all sinners are under the curse of Law; which is a ministry of death for sinners. But the Law when exposing our sinful condition and the threats of the sanctions for breaching the Law, comes like a thunder storm, as on Mt. Sinai!




Good I hope you are understanding it now. Because without Justification by Faith Alone apart from works of the Law. Nothing else matters; there is redemption. This is why both Luther & Calvin said this is the article upon which the church stands or falls. If ones doesn't get this right, they do not have the good news, only exhortation. In Romans 4 Paul is using a juxtaposition between works & gift. By works a man is owed a debt for his services rendered. But a free gift is not earned but given freely and this is the good news for the ungodly! Because the ungodly have no chance in fulfilling the Law demands. They are already convicted and condemned. But God who is the Just and the Justifier provides a propitiation; a substitute, who takes our place and becomes a curse for us by hanging on the tree meant for us! And in turn we receive Christ's righteousness while we are still ungodly, and God declares we us righteous because of Christ! Faith passively receives and rests on Christ and his perfect holy merits which earned a debt owed! And it's only in this can we boast and find peace with God!

God does justify the believing man, yet not for the worthiness of his believing, but for the worthiness in whom is believed; namely Christ Jesus and his merits!​

So many people get hung up on the two major topics of faith along and faith plus works and rarely consider the option of faith and love. Perhaps it’s not the works themselves that are taken into consideration but instead the motivation behind those works, that’s what Christ is looking for. Works done as a result of love towards God and others. Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 13 that faith without love is useless and profits no one.

 

[anetazo]

The Truth is, apostates broke away from the foundation of christ and formed Denominations, documentation, Corinthians chapter 3. In proverbs chapter 5, the apostate is called Zur or stranger or hirelings. Calvinism is of denominations. John chapter 7, the fake religious leaders ask Jesus were he learned scriptures?? John 7:15. And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knows this man letters, having never learned?. 7:16. Jesus answered them, said, My doctrine is not Mine, but His That sent Me. The religious leaders learned in seminary schools. Taught traditions of men and false doctrine. Thier theology is philosophy and traditions of men. Jesus told the truth and was always morally right. Why do think the religious leaders hated Jesus? Jesus exposed their traditions and lies. Paul teaches the difference between leaven bread and unleavened bread. Leaven bread is traditions of men, and unleavened bread is sound doctrine. Get the picture.

 

[ladodgers6]

That’s not what I asked. You’re avoiding the question. Should the governor provide those people with the ability to meet his expectations if he is able to?

Hold on, you saying that it's the Governor's fault for not giving them the ability to meet the civil and moral law? Are you one of those who pushes blame on other people for your Lawlessness? Besides they don't want to obey, by their own free-choice. Nobody is forcing them to sin, right? They do what they want and what they want is to sin! This is why the Bible says it is Christ who sets us free from this fallen corrupt disposition.​

Let me ask it another way. Would it be just for God to command that everyone must read a document written in Japanese out loud or they will be thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity but no one knew Japanese but He decides to teach some of the people Japanese but not the rest? Would that be just for those He didn’t teach? They have no way of cooperating it is absolutely impossible for them to comply. That’s what Calvinism teaches. That man is absolutely incapable of repentance unless God enables them.

Fallen corrupt man doesn't even want to repent! They don't love or desire God. They seek pleasures of the flesh and mind! Fallen mankind has fallen so far into darkness, they are blind and like TWD (The Walking Dead) only have an appetite for sin. The reason why you do not understand this, is because you have a weak view of the Fall of Man. I strongly suggest you do your homework and really studying on what happened in the garden that afternoon.​

 

[ladodgers6]

Didn’t say all people are good, but they can repent and turn to God.

Okay, where do you get this from?

 

[ladodgers6]

I explained that.

You did not.

Just because He paid the price doesn’t mean He is obligated to allow everyone to enter.

What??? If your bill is paid in full you owe nothing. Basically it's yours, you now owned it. If I paid in full for your house, it's yours free and clear.

It also doesn’t mean that everyone is justified to God. Jesus is the One who determines who is justified and who is not.

Okay, explain.

 

[ladodgers6]

It’s our cooperation with His will that makes us eligible to receive His atonement, which by definition is repentance.

No Sir, it's by His Sheer Mercy!!!

 

[ladodgers6]

Feel free to take a look at my profile, I have over 17,000 posts here on CF, that alone should give some Indication of how much research and homework I’ve done. Can you provide one single shred of evidence from the early church writers to support Calvin’s theology? Preferably from the first two centuries because after all we are trying to determine exactly what the early church taught. It’s no secret that reformed theology didn’t exist before the 16th century and has been refuted by every single church established by the apostles. So yes I have done my homework, have you?

St. Augustine