Please help me figure this out!

[BNR32FAN]

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.

Yeah Jesus said this to people who were seeking to kill Him. This doesn’t mean that they were incapable of repenting.

Paul wrote this to believers

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭15‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

John 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

Yeah they were not of God they were of satan. Again read Romans 6:16. They were presenting themselves as servants of satan instead of servants of God. And as Paul pointed out believers can do the same exact thing. He says it again in Ephesians 4:17-31 and on into Ephesians 5:1-6. Children of God can grieve the Holy Spirit and once again become sons of disobedience and receive God’s wrath.

John 5:25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Yeah this only says that those who listen will live. It doesn’t say that anyone can’t listen. Furthermore Jesus was trying to save these people. He specifically said so in verse 34.

“You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭33‬-‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

So again it's in what we do is where we find assurance and hope, not in Christ and merits. In the Reformed Faith, we teach that Faith only receives what saves. Like giving a homeless man money, where lies the treasure? Is it the object or the man's hand? The hand only receives what saves. Will this man treasure his hand or the gold bar that provides him life?​

What good would it do for someone to repent if Christ had not sacrificed Himself? No one is saving themselves without Christ’s sacrifice so your point is a strawman argument. Without Christ’s sacrifice no one could be saved so the glory still remains to God and not ourselves.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why? In your theology everyone can repent, they have the capability to accept, right? So this means that everyone has the same illumination in understanding the Gospel and repent, correct? All have the same equal amount of whatever you call it; knowledge, insight, revelation, whatever. Why do some reject it, knowing the consequences of that decision in the paradigm you hold?

I was talking about according to Calvinist theology. I’m sure there are numerous reasons who people reject the gospel but I’d say the most common one is that they prefer their sin. They don’t want God telling them how to live their life.

Paul specifically states that the gospel itself has the power to elicit a response in those who hear it.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

You say you are well verse, but this comment right here shows you are not familiar. Here's why, Adam the representative of humanity made that decision for us in the garden.

Everyone is a descendant of Adam both believers and unbelievers so that’s irrelevant. That doesn’t indicate what makes them different from one another.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Bible disagrees with you, and it's the final authority even over the ECF.

Oh I agree the scriptures are the ultimate authority, but the ECFs writings are a way for us to determine how the scriptures were intended to be interpreted since some of them actually followed the apostles themselves. So they had access to more information from them than we get from the scriptures.

 

[ladodgers6]

Allow me to quote the next 5 verses Paul wrote so we can see why he said this to the Corinthians.

“But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2‬:‭15‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Please excuse if I come off rude because it doesn't seem you study Scripture in it's context. Who is a natural man and who is spiritual man? You are not looking at the problem just conjecture.​

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Do you know what Paul is talking about here? When sinners believe in him who justifies the ungodly, they are counted as righteous in God's sight because of Christ. From here FAN we grow in newness of life. This is not hard to understand in fact this is elementary; like drinking milk. When grow in the knowledge of the Lord, and get to harder subjects like Election, Predestination, Covenant Theology, Biblical Theology, it is solid food. If a babe in Christ tries to swallow solid food they will choke, so starting with how a sinner is saved through Justification by Faith in Christ Alone apart from works of the Law, is essential to getting it right, or nothing else matters.

Now to be clear here, Paul is addressing a Christian church with infighting going on.
​

Divisions in the Church​

1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?

5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

What is the focus of these Christians? Jealously and strife? Where is Christ? Which is why Paul refocuses them back to Christ and what he did for them.

But this brings up the point, that I have been asking you. If even these Christians believers have a hard time. How on earth is it not harder for those who don't believe? Because the Christians life has struggles, tribulation, trials, we face the raging war the Spirit and flesh. Where the natural man does not have they only have sin in their lives. Care to explain?

​

The reason Paul said that to the Corinthians was because they were not setting their mind on the Spirit they were setting their mind on the flesh. They were acting like “mere men” or “the natural man”. These Corinthians were believers, they had repented and they believed. So you’re taking that passage to an extreme interpretation that doesn’t line up with the surrounding context. I don’t think it’s entirely your fault, most Calvinists quote this verse as you did but they just don’t turn the page to see why Paul said that. The reason is right there in his next 5 statements.

Disagree they were Christian believers, who were struggling with jealousy and strife, and in fighting among each other. Paul admonition them for it. Reminding them of Christ and who he is and God who is the master builder. There no mistake of their salvation they have it, but need to hear the Law preached to them again, a matter of fact we should hear it the Law and Gospel preached everyday. To reminds us who we were and what Christ did for the ungodly.

But let's not stop here let's continue with the rest of the run of the passages. To get context they were fighting to see who was the better Christian boasting about themselves (like Stewart on MAD TV saying, "Look at what I can do"). So Paul says this to them stop it your not behaving like servants of Christ, quit it now. What are you boasting about anyways?

1 Cor. 4:7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

God provides us everything, which is why only God can regenerate us and give us the Spirit to believe and repent. And to walk in newness of life by always keeping Christ centered in our lives! Once we look away to ourselves, as I said before we encounter major problems like these Corinthians did. ​

 

[ladodgers6]

Oh I agree the scriptures are the ultimate authority, but the ECFs writings are a way for us to determine how the scriptures were intended to be interpreted since some of them actually followed the apostles themselves. So they had access to more information from them than we get from the scriptures.

So then if I provide some excerpts from the ECF you will agree with it?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Please excuse if I come off rude because it doesn't seem you study Scripture in its context. Who is a natural man and who is spiritual man? You are not looking at the problem just conjecture.

Well you don’t have to come off rude by saying that I don’t seem to study. I mean you could omit that part and get on with the discussion instead of attempting to belittle me with unnecessary insults. You keep saying that I lack study, I’m not well versed in the scriptures, and here your saying that I’m not studying the context when it was me that posted the surrounding verses to illuminate the context. I stumped you with the first 3 verses I posted and even after asking three times you repeatedly decline to answer my two simple questions. I must’ve just gotten lucky posting those verses right off the bat, I mean it’s not as if I haven’t posted them before in numerous discussions on this topic.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you know what Paul is talking about here? When sinners believe in him who justifies the ungodly, they are counted as righteous in God's sight because of Christ. From here FAN we grow in newness of life. This is not hard to understand in fact this is elementary; like drinking milk. When grow in the knowledge of the Lord, and get to harder subjects like Election, Predestination, Covenant Theology, Biblical Theology, it is solid food. If a babe in Christ tries to swallow solid food they will choke, so starting with how a sinner is saved through Justification by Faith in Christ Alone apart from works of the Law, is essential to getting it right, or nothing else matters.

If your theology was sound you wouldn’t be dodging verses. I haven’t dodged a single verse you’ve quoted. So who’s choking here? You said a person’s relationship with God has to be restored before they can repent. I posted 3 verses and asked two simple questions.

1 Were these people capable of repenting?

2 Was their relationship with God restored?

You won’t answer these questions because in Romans 2:4-5 Paul specifically states that God’s kindness and patience is leading them to repentance but because of their stubborn heart they refuse to repent.

So the answer is obvious they are capable of repentance and their relationship with God is NOT restored.

Then there’s John 5:34 where Jesus is speaking to people who are seeking to kill Him and the whole message is Him trying to get them to believe so that they will be saved and again they refuse to believe. He even tells them that Moses will be the one to condemn them so again the expectation to repent is there, Jesus is trying to save them, but their relationship with God is NOT restored.

And again in Revelation 2:20-21 Jesus is giving Jezebel time to repent but she doesn’t want to repent. It wouldn’t make any sense for Jesus to give her time to repent if she is incapable of doing so and again her relationship with God is NOT restored.

What’s the point of discussing this topic if you’re going to turn a blind eye to what the scriptures say? You avoided these verses because you knew that you couldn’t refute them. That should be a red light to you that should cause you to reevaluate your position to coincide with what is written.

 

[ladodgers6]

Well you don’t have to come off rude by saying that I don’t seem to study.

Yeah, I know, sorry. But you need to do your due diligence and research everything, right?

I mean you could omit that part and get on with the discussion instead of attempting to belittle me with unnecessary insults.

I am not insulting you, just making an observation. Your comments lack the required knowledge that's all.

You keep saying that I lack study, I’m not well versed in the scriptures, and here your saying that I’m not studying the context when it was me that posted the surrounding verses to illuminate the context.

Paul admonition those Corinthians Christians, walking around with their chest puffed out to see who is the better Christian. Or seeing other Christians being more devout in their faith and repentance, that some got jealous causing strife among them. But Paul told them to quit it. This is how a servant of the Lord behaves. Paul asks how can you boast in yourselves? What do you possess that you didn't receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it? This is why in Calvinism we teach that everything we have comes form the Lord.​

​

I stumped you with the first 3 verses I posted and even after asking three times you repeatedly decline to answer my two simple questions. I must’ve just gotten lucky posting those verses right off the bat, I mean it’s not as if I haven’t posted them before in numerous discussions on this topic.​

You stumped me...LoL. Sure whatever you say. Thanks I needed that.

 

[ladodgers6]

If your theology was sound you wouldn’t be dodging verses. I haven’t dodged a single verse you’ve quoted. So who’s choking here? You said a person’s relationship with God has to be restored before they can repent. I posted 3 verses and asked two simple questions.

1 Were these people capable of repenting?

2 Was their relationship with God restored?

You won’t answer these questions because in Romans 2:4-5 Paul specifically states that God’s kindness and patience is leading them to repentance but because of their stubborn heart they refuse to repent.

So the answer is obvious they are capable of repentance and their relationship with God is NOT restored.

Then there’s John 5:34 where Jesus is speaking to people who are seeking to kill Him and the whole message is Him trying to get them to believe so that they will be saved and again they refuse to believe. He even tells them that Moses will be the one to condemn them so again the expectation to repent is there, Jesus is trying to save them, but their relationship with God is NOT restored.

And again in Revelation 2:20-21 Jesus is giving Jezebel time to repent but she doesn’t want to repent. It wouldn’t make any sense for Jesus to give her time to repent if she is incapable of doing so and again her relationship with God is NOT restored.

What’s the point of discussing this topic if you’re going to turn a blind eye to what the scriptures say? You avoided these verses because you knew that you couldn’t refute them. That should be a red light to you that should cause you to reevaluate your position to coincide with what is written.

Really you haven't dodge a single verse I provided? How about these verses:

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.

John 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

John 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

If you wouldn't mind explaining these passages, thanks.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I am not insulting you, just making an observation. Your comments lack the required knowledge that's all.

My theology is not much different than what the EOC teaches. Would you say that they lack study?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You stumped me...LoL. Sure whatever you say. Thanks I needed that.

And yet you still refuse to answer the two questions for a fourth time.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Really you haven't dodge a single verse I provided? How about these verses:

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.

John 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

I did address both of these yesterday by quoting Romans 6:15-16 where Paul tells the brethren that they are servants of the one whom they serve. Meaning that you are a servant of the one whom you are serving. If you’re serving God you’re a servant of God, if you’re serving satan then you’re a servant of satan. He said this to believers indicating that believers can bounce back & forth between serving God or satan. In John 5 Jesus is talking to Jews who are believers of God, they just didn’t believe in Jesus. So His audience was just as capable of serving God or satan just like any Christian believer.

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭15‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

John 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

The Greek word translated to “comes” or “cometh” is only used in the present or imperfect tense meaning those who continue to come to Him, He will not cast out. It does not mean that anyone who ever came to Him He will not cast out. Eternal security is a false doctrine and the scriptures make that perfectly clear.

““I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

All of these are clear examples that believers can lose their salvation.

 

[ladodgers6]

My theology is not much different than what the EOC teaches. Would you say that they lack study?

So are you suggesting that you possess all the same knowledge? Just asking.

 

[ladodgers6]

And yet you still refuse to answer the two questions for a fourth time.

Like I said, whatever you say. Are you going to address the passages I provided? Just a simply yes or no will suffice.

 

[ladodgers6]

I did address both of these yesterday by quoting Romans 6:15-16 where Paul tells the brethren that they are servants of the one whom they serve. Meaning that you are a servant of the one whom you are serving. If you’re serving God you’re a servant of God, if you’re serving satan then you’re a servant of satan. He said this to believers indicating that believers can bounce back & forth between serving God or satan. In John 5 Jesus is talking to Jews who are believers of God, they just didn’t believe in Jesus. So His audience was just as capable of serving God or satan just like any Christian believer.

These comments do not address the verses I provided. Aren't we all servants of sin before God comes and rescues sinners from this fallen sinful condition. Well I do not want to put words in your mouth. Because in the Reformed Faith we hold to Biblical Truths that explicitly states that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, right? So who do sinners serve?

John 8:39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”​

So please, explain what these passages mean?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Like I said, whatever you say. Are you going to address the passages I provided? Just a simply yes or no will suffice.

I did in post 214.

 

[BNR32FAN]

These comments do not address the verses I provided. Aren't we all servants of sin before God comes and rescues sinners from this fallen sinful condition. Well I do not want to put words in your mouth. Because in the Reformed Faith we hold to Biblical Truths that explicitly states that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, right? So who do sinners serve?

John 8:39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”​

So please, explain what these passages mean?

It means that they were ungodly people refusing to listen to Him. What do you think it means?

 

[ladodgers6]

I did in post 214.

Okay, I will read that post, which I did already. I was giving you another opportunity to review what you wrote.