Please help me figure this out!

[ladodgers6]

So many people get hung up on the two major topics of faith along and faith plus works and rarely consider the option of faith and love. Perhaps it’s not the works themselves that are taken into consideration but instead the motivation behind those works, that’s what Christ is looking for. Works done as a result of love towards God and others. Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 13 that faith without love is useless and profits no one.

Well then, have you with all your heart, soul and mind obeyed all that is commanded of us?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Fallen corrupt man doesn't even want to repent! They don't love or desire God. They seek pleasures of the flesh and mind! Fallen mankind has fallen so far into darkness, they are blind and like TWD (The Walking Dead) only have an appetite for sin. The reason why you do not understand this, is because you have a weak view of the Fall of Man. I strongly suggest you do your homework and really studying on what happened in the garden that afternoon.

Again you’re avoiding the question which only proves my point. You don’t want to answer it because you know that it is unjust for God to punish man for all eternity for failing to meet impossible expectations. In order for man to be justly held accountable for failing to meet God’s expectations he must be capable of complying.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You did not.

What??? If your bill is paid in full you owe nothing. Basically it's yours, you now owned it. If I paid in full for your house, it's yours free and clear.

Okay, explain.

So if I decide to buy tickets to a movie theater for everyone in the world I’m obligated to give every person a ticket? No Christ allows admission for His friends, He’s not obligated to allow His enemies to enter. And what do the scriptures say? John specifically wrote “He is the propitiation for our sins AND NOT ONLY OUR’S BUT THE WHOLE WORLD’S.” Your theology contradicts what John wrote, mine doesn’t.

 

[BNR32FAN]

St. Augustine

St Augustine was a 5th century writer, I would hardly consider him to be an early church writer and he openly admitted to making several mistakes in his writings. Unfortunately he didn’t specify exactly what those mistakes were. We’re trying to determine what the early church taught not what it taught 400 years after the apostles.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well then, have you with all your heart, soul and mind obeyed all that is commanded of us?

You skipped a very important post. You said that we must be restored to God in order to repent.

Ok I’ll answer this by quoting three verses and asking two questions.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭33‬-‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here’s my two questions

1 Were these people capable of repentance?

2 Was their relationship with God restored?

Can you answer these two questions please?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well then, have you with all your heart, soul and mind obeyed all that is commanded of us?

No I haven’t. But the commandment was to love God with all our heart soul and mind and I have done that.

 

[ladodgers6]

Again you’re avoiding the question which only proves my point. You don’t want to answer it because you know that it is unjust for God to punish man for all eternity for failing to meet impossible expectations. In order for man to be justly held accountable for failing to meet God’s expectations he must be capable of complying.

I address your question every precisely. Just because you are not familiar with these topics demonstrated in your posts, shows you really need to do some homework. I used to think as you do, until I did my homework in the pursue of the truth. I recommend that you read every book you can get your hands dealing with these debates from all sides of the debate. You will come to a conclusion as I did, first of all, there is novelty in these debates anymore. Maybe old heresies come back around dressed up in new clothes, but same old false teaching underneath.

One can twist and turn their conjectural biases onto Scripture, but that is not seeking the truth at all. Here's what I mean. You stated that all people apart from God's Grace can repent. Then you stated that Christ pain in full for everyone sins. But then negated that people can repent or are redeem by what Christ did. This is convoluted at best.

In regards to your baseless accusation that I didn't answer your question about God punishing sinners because they cannot meet God demands, is nonsense. In our society we have civil Law and runs the Land. This is to keep Law and Order; to protect all citizens from lawlessness. But not all adhere to this Civil Law they prefer a life of crime; career criminals. Who enjoy and love killing, raping, robbing and so forth to satisfy whatever their desires are. Did anyone coerce them to lead a life of crime? Should they be given a pass because they CANNOT control themselves or possess normal social function within the community? Your point is futile and does not help your position at all, IMHO it's does more harm than good to you. Because God's not the one who needs to be judged here, sinners are.

But I'll share something special with you here. You got one thing almost right, which I was trying to point you in the right direction. You stated earlier that it's basically unfair that God demands what we cannot meet or fulfill. Exactly right! The Holy Law of God demands perfection in relation to obedience without a single blemish of sin from cradle to the grave. Who can do such a thing? This should bring terror to a sinner who does not see any hope in the Law. The Law is a ministry of death to a sinner. The Law only brings threats, death, condemnation; God's righteous judgement and punishment.

But the Law also point to a mercy-seat; a Savior; a Redeemer; a Peace Maker. A Savior who came as one of us. Born under the Law, to fulfill it, to condemn sin in the sin, to take our place on the Cross by becoming a curse for us, suffering the full wrath of God on his head in our stead, suffering the unmeasurable punishment we incurred, he takes the full weight of that upon his body by drinking form the cup of wrath. This is the legal ramifications of breaching that Covenant in the Garden temple that afternoon. But God who is rich in mercy sent a Promised who will save his people from their sins. This is the good news for the ungodly. That he/she who believes in him who justifies the ungodly are declared righteous before him the moment they believe and trust in Christ in who he is and what he has done!

Know what you believe and why you believe it!

By Grace Alone in Christ Alone!​

 

[ladodgers6]

No I haven’t. But the commandment was to love God with all our heart soul and mind and I have done that.

So where do we find comfort and assurance in our repentance or Christ?

 

[ladodgers6]

You skipped a very important post. You said that we must be restored to God in order to repent.

Ok I’ll answer this by quoting three verses and asking two questions.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭33‬-‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here’s my two questions

1 Were these people capable of repentance?

2 Was their relationship with God restored?

Can you answer these two questions please?

Do you not see the answer in passages? These passages answer your own questions.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I address your question every precisely. Just because you are not familiar with these topics demonstrated in your posts, shows you really need to do some homework. I used to think as you do, until I did my homework in the pursue of the truth. I recommend that you read every book you can get your hands dealing with these debates from all sides of the debate. You will come to a conclusion as I did, first of all, there is novelty in these debates anymore. Maybe old heresies come back around dressed up in new clothes, but same old false teaching underneath.

Commentaries? That’s your suggestion? You can find a commentary for every false doctrine ever conceived. You claim I’m not familiar with these topics? Ask Mark Quale or Clare if I’m familiar with these topics, I’m sure we have over a hundred posts just between us alone not including everyone else I’ve debated this topic with over the last 7 years here on CF. As you can see I’m quite active in these discussions. And no you didn’t answer my question you keep dodging it because your answer says that man doesn’t WANT to repent but Calvin teaches that man is INCAPABLE of repentance. That’s a huge difference. God punishing people because they don’t want to repent is completely justifiable but God punishing man for being incapable of repentance is entirely unjust. You can’t justly punish someone for failing to do something that is impossible for them to do.

 

[BNR32FAN]

One can twist and turn their conjectural biases onto Scripture, but that is not seeking the truth at all. Here's what I mean. You stated that all people apart from God's Grace can repent. Then you stated that Christ pain in full for everyone sins. But then negated that people can repent or are redeem by what Christ did. This is convoluted at best.

So it’s better to hold a position that directly contradicts what is written in the scriptures, and what we can see in the early church writings, and what every single apostolic church actually teaches? Your theology is from the 16th century, it didn’t exist before John Calvin. John Calvin wasn’t a follower of the apostles and I’ve already shown you quotes from Iranaeus written in 170AD that refute Calvin’s theology. And you keep saying that I haven’t done my homework?

 

[BNR32FAN]

In regards to your baseless accusation that I didn't answer your question about God punishing sinners because they cannot meet God demands, is nonsense. In our society we have civil Law and runs the Land. This is to keep Law and Order; to protect all citizens from lawlessness. But not all adhere to this Civil Law they prefer a life of crime; career criminals. Who enjoy and love killing, raping, robbing and so forth to satisfy whatever their desires are. Did anyone coerce them to lead a life of crime? Should they be given a pass because they CANNOT control themselves or possess normal social function within the community? Your point is futile and does not help your position at all, IMHO it's does more harm than good to you. Because God's not the one who needs to be judged here, sinners are.

Again does Calvin teach that man doesn’t want to repent or does he teach that they are INCAPABLE of repentance? There’s a huge difference.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So where do we find comfort and assurance in our repentance or Christ?

It’s through repentance that we come to Christ. You can’t be in Christ until you repent.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you not see the answer in passages? These passages answer your own questions.

Again why can’t you simply answer the two questions? You can’t because you know your answer will contradict these passages which is why you’ve dodged them again.

 

[ladodgers6]

Commentaries? That’s your suggestion? You can find a commentary for every false doctrine ever conceived. You claim I’m not familiar with these topics? Ask Mark Quale or Clare if I’m familiar with these topics, I’m sure we have over a hundred posts just between us alone not including everyone else I’ve debated this topic with over the last 7 years here on CF. As you can see I’m quite active in these discussions. And no you didn’t answer my question you keep dodging it because your answer says that man doesn’t WANT to repent but Calvin teaches that man is INCAPABLE of repentance. That’s a huge difference. God punishing people because they don’t want to repent is completely justifiable but God punishing man for being incapable of repentance is entirely unjust. You can’t justly punish someone for failing to do something that is impossible for them to do.

Yes you can find a commentary for every false religion ever conceived, so learn them. I am pretty confident that you have a few books on what you believe, correct? You can say whatever you want about how many posts you have, that doesn't make you correct. I do not get the feeling you are familiar, because if you are, then you would've understood the dilemma about saying Christ paid in full for everyone sins. But you keep trying to rectify it in making work, but it does not. What Christ came to do was intentional and has a purpose, it's not random or possible, but in fact specific and effectual. That's a huge difference! Now would I want to be in a position where things are random and only possible by a random chance, or by a specific promise that God's justifies the ungodly apart from works and Christ and his merits are effectual to do exactly what God promised? In your paradigm there is no hope, assurance, joy, confidence, nor life. Only constant intensity of introspection to evaluate self worth in the lack of inventory.​

 

[ladodgers6]

Again does Calvin teach that man doesn’t want to repent or does he teach that they are INCAPABLE of repentance? There’s a huge difference.

Both, sinful man doesn't want to repent and is incapable because he/she is in bondage to their desires. Here, please, by all means explain these passages if you wouldn't mind.

1 Cor. 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.

John 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

John 5:25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes you can find a commentary for every false religion ever conceived, so learn them. I am pretty confident that you have a few books on what you believe, correct? You can say whatever you want about how many posts you have, that doesn't make you correct. I do not get the feeling you are familiar, because if you are, then you would've understood the dilemma about saying Christ paid in full for everyone sins. But you keep trying to rectify it in making work, but it does not. What Christ came to do was intentional and has a purpose, it's not random or possible, but in fact specific and effectual. That's a huge difference! Now would I want to be in a position where things are random and only possible by a random chance, or by a specific promise that God's justifies the ungodly apart from works and Christ and his merits are effectual to do exactly what God promised? In your paradigm there is no hope, assurance, joy, confidence, nor life. Only constant intensity of introspection to evaluate self worth in the lack of inventory.​

On the contrary there is no hope, assurance, joy, confidence, or life for the majority of people who refuse to accept Christ. They never had any chance to accept Christ because they were never given the ability to do so according to John Calvin. So it’s your theology that is without hope not mine. In my theology, which is what the church has taught since the beginning and supported by the early Christian writers, everyone has hope. Everyone has a chance for salvation.

 

[ladodgers6]

It’s through repentance that we come to Christ. You can’t be in Christ until you repent.

So again it's in what we do is where we find assurance and hope, not in Christ and merits. In the Reformed Faith, we teach that Faith only receives what saves. Like giving a homeless man money, where lies the treasure? Is it the object or the man's hand? The hand only receives what saves. Will this man treasure his hand or the gold bar that provides him life?​

 

[ladodgers6]

On the contrary there is no hope, assurance, joy, confidence, or life for the majority of people who refuse to accept Christ.

Why? In your theology everyone can repent, they have the capability to accept, right? So this means that everyone has the same illumination in understanding the Gospel and repent, correct? All have the same equal amount of whatever you call it; knowledge, insight, revelation, whatever. Why do some reject it, knowing the consequences of that decision in the paradigm you hold?

They never had any chance to accept Christ because they were never given the ability to do so according to John Calvin.

You say you are well verse, but this comment right here shows you are not familiar. Here's why, Adam the representative of humanity made that decision for us in the garden.

So it’s your theology that is without hope not mine. In my theology, which is what the church has taught since the beginning and supported by the early Christian writers, everyone has hope. Everyone has a chance for salvation.

The Bible disagrees with you, and it's the final authority even over the ECF.

 

[BNR32FAN]

1 Cor. 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Allow me to quote the next 5 verses Paul wrote so we can see why he said this to the Corinthians.

“But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2‬:‭15‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The reason Paul said that to the Corinthians was because they were not setting their mind on the Spirit they were setting their mind on the flesh. They were acting like “mere men” or “the natural man”. These Corinthians were believers, they had repented and they believed. So you’re taking that passage to an extreme interpretation that doesn’t line up with the surrounding context. I don’t think it’s entirely your fault, most Calvinists quote this verse as you did but they just don’t turn the page to see why Paul said that. The reason is right there in his next 5 statements.