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maves

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As a part of my investigation into Calvinism, I looked into what the Early Church taught on the topic, i.e. the earliest church fathers. It turns out teh Early Church, around 150 years after the cross, all taught free agency, free will, they actually fought a type of Calvinism called Fatalism.

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies taught genuine Free Will​

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk 21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk 6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk 12:45, Luk 12:46; Mat 24:48, Mat 24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)
How beautiful! How great and compassionate is the Lord, desiring to gather all people to Himself, desiring that they would not resist as they do. Thank you so much for these quotes from the early church fathers, the ones most acquainted with the apostles' teaching, speaking on this issue.

Many times I read these passages (such as Matthew 23:27), and I want to read it plainly, but I feel for a moment that I cannot, that there may be another meaning hiding. I have been conditioned to interpret passages in such a way.

I wish to read the Scripture plainly, as a little child clinging to her Father's promises. It is refreshing to read more excerpts of the early church fathers affirming the responsibility of man.

But it is also disheartening to see how fatalism has worked its way into the Church; even my current study Bible's commentary claims that Romans 9 implies fatalism. Usually, the commentary is very good, though. I just have to be discerning.
 
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ladodgers6

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I don't defend the Arminian view. I affirm Eternal Security! Believers have passed from death into life (John 5) and are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1).
I didn't post this to you. This post is for Bible Highlighter. But if you want to engage with me, that's fine.
But your first premise is incorrect. Arminians do not affirm Total Depravity. They affirm Partial Depravity. Thus, your conclusion is unfounded.
I beg to differ. The Classical Arminian view is Total Depravity, nor Partial Depravity. Google it! Look up Roger Olson prominent exponent of the Classical Arminian position.
However, I affirm that people sin and are unable to redeem themselves by any of their own efforts. They are totally depraved, innately corrupted, and completely sinful!
Great, I also hold this view. This is the historic Reformed view of total depravity.
This does not mean, though, that they are (1) unable to know God's righteousness or (2) hear the call of the Gospel and repent!

(1) People are responsible, or as Romans 1 puts it, "without excuse". People know God, for "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them". Yes, we are born with a sinful nature, but we are not born suppressing the truth. Rather, through our unrighteousness, we come to suppress the truth. God is patient and "long-suffering" with us, but if we are stubborn, keep hardening our hearts, and resist the Holy Spirit (As Stephen rebukes the crowd in Acts 7:51: "You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"), He will give them up to their own debased mind and hardened heart.
No one seeks for God, but God can be "clearly perceived" in the world He has created and especially in the person of Jesus Christ, for "in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily".
Here's where we parts ways. Because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness! They don't want or desire God, or seek after him (Romans 3). They love the darkness and hate the light (John 3). In Romans men assemble images of mortal to worship, and they do honor or praise God, correct. Paul does say they are without excuse because God's divine power is on display all around us. But sinners do not want to honor God or praise him as God, right? They replace God with statues of mortal men, go figure, sound familiar? You'll be like gods the serpent said. God is lying to you!​
(2) Everyone can hear the command of Jesus to repent and believe, for "the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people"!! Now, let us proclaim, "let the wicked forsake their ways / and the unrighteous their thoughts. / Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them, / and to our God, for he will freely pardon".
Jesus Himself has said "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself".
I will agree with you that everyone can hear the external call of the Gospel, but only the elect people of God will hear his internal call through the proclamation of the Gospel by the regeneration power of the Holy Spirit!
Praise the Lord, for He has drawn me, too, and He will raise me up on the Last Day! I do not know everything about how I came to faith, but all that I know is that God drew me to Himself, I have faith in Christ's sacrifice, and I am justified by faith in Him, not by any work of my own. Praise God!

I humbly learn and seek to know more and more about our great God. Praise Him!

I hope this was helpful!
Great to hear this, God's Grace is Amazing, and only he alone can resurrect the dead. The dead cannot do nothing else, but play dead. Here a gem for you from one of my favorite theologian. And it's okay to give God all the glory and praise, not man!

The doctrine of total depravity reflects the Reformed viewpoint of original sin. That term—original sin—is often misunderstood in the popular arena. Some people assume that the term original sin must refer to the first sin—the original transgression that we’ve all copied in many different ways in our own lives, that is, the first sin of Adam and Eve. But that’s not what original sin has referred to historically in the church. Rather, the doctrine of original sin defines the consequences to the human race because of that first sin.

Virtually every church historically that has a creed or a confession has agreed that something very serious happened to the human race as a result of the first sin—that first sin resulted in original sin. That is, as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve, the entire human race fell, and our nature as human beings since the fall has been influenced by the power of evil. As David declared in the Old Testament, “Oh, God, I was born in sin, and in sin did my mother conceive me” (Ps. 51:5). He was not saying that it was sinful for his mother to have borne children; neither was he saying that he had done something evil by being born. Rather, he was acknowledging the human condition of fallenness—that condition that was part of the experience of his parents, a condition that he himself brought into this world. Therefore, original sin has to do with the fallen nature of mankind. The idea is that we are not sinners because we sin, but that we sin because we are sinners.

In the Reformed tradition, total depravity does not mean utter depravity. We often use the term total as a synonym for utter or for completely, so the notion of total depravity conjures up the idea that every human being is as bad as that person could possibly be. You might think of an archfiend of history such as Adolf Hitler and say there was absolutely no redeeming virtue in the man, but I suspect that he had some affection for his mother. As wicked as Hitler was, we can still conceive of ways in which he could have been even more wicked than he actually was. So the idea of total in total depravity doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person. The fallenness that captures and grips our human nature affects our bodies; that’s why we become ill and die. It affects our minds and our thinking; we still have the capacity to think, but the Bible says the mind has become darkened and weakened. The will of man is no longer in its pristine state of moral power. The will, according to the New Testament, is now in bondage. We are enslaved to the evil impulses and desires of our hearts. The body, the mind, the will, the spirit—indeed, the whole person—have been infected by the power of sin.

The doctrine of original sin defines the consequences to the human race because of that first sin.
I like to replace the term total depravity with my favorite designation, which is radical corruption. Ironically, the word radical has its roots in the Latin word for “root,” which is radix, and it can be translated root or core. The term radical has to do with something that permeates to the core of a thing. It’s not something that is tangential or superficial, lying on the surface. The Reformed view is that the effects of the fall extend or penetrate to the core of our being. Even the English word core actually comes from the Latin word cor, which means “heart.” That is, our sin is something that comes from our hearts. In biblical terms, that means it’s from the core or very center of our existence.

So what is required for us to be conformed to the image of Christ is not simply some small adjustments or behavioral modifications, but nothing less than renovation from the inside. We need to be regenerated, to be made over again, to be quickened by the power of the Spirit. The only way in which a person can escape this radical situation is by the Holy Spirit’s changing the core, the heart. However, even that change does not instantly vanquish sin. The complete elimination of sin awaits our glorification in heaven.
 
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ladodgers6

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Do you agree with this statement below?

But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affection or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing, and doing.​
 
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maves

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Hey everyone, I wish everyone who keeps up with this thread a happy day or night haha :))

Thank you all for sticking with me and helping me with these issues. I love you all very much!

Today, I was again confronted with some issues with Calvinism, so I went back to this topic to research and also to check up on this thread.

I was talking with a woman I am quite close to today, she also happens to be my Worldviews teacher, the one who drives me to school, as well as the pastor's wife at my church!! She plays many roles in my life, haha.

For those of you who do not know, I became a follower of Christ nearly two years ago and transferred to a private Christian school.

We were in class today- study hall- and I was reading my Worldviews book: "Understanding the Times" by David Noebel and Jeff Myers. I was reading the last chapter, the History chapter.

There was a section that quoted Bertrand Russell, a Secular Humanist, mathematician, and philosopher, and his thoughts about Christianity. It was talking about how Secularists try to reconcile their philosophy of biological determinism with free will. Then, the book started describing how Russell actually believes that it is "supernatural truth" that makes people feel like "slaves to their circumstances", "robbed of personality", "futile"... etc etc..

So, I told my teacher about my confusion. My question basically was: why would an atheist and naturalist feel as if God's sovereignty is somehow constricting? Is not their worldview the deterministic one?

Now, as I have mentioned before in this thread, my pastor is a Calvinist. I wasn't sure if my teacher was, but apparently so. My teacher then quoted some passages of Scripture that Russell might have a problem with.

I never brought up any soteriological matter, I was very subtle, and really, I was not trying to find out if she was a Calvinist or not. I was trying to uncover an answer to this apparent contradiction, or find the flaw in Russell's thinking.

I believe I understand it now. The flaw is that: Secularists feel very protective of their own will to improve, and also of humanity's inherent moral goodness (believing that we evolved to have moral impulses because they are linked to the preservation of the human race, so morality is a bit like a survival instinct), so the fact that one must depend on God for salvation to be freed from sin is a pride-stripping thought. The fact that we were knit together by God with personalities that are reflections of His can humble a hyper-individualistic culture.

After all, the book referred to supernatural truth causing this reaction, not specifically the doctrine of predestination or anything like that. I did not reread this part of the book, so if I'm missing something, I will go back and clarify for sure.

However, this afternoon, my teacher did not offer an explanation like this, but rather referred to Romans 3 and Romans 9, saying that many people like to shift the blame for sin onto God due to these "supernatural truths". These people draw a fatalistic conclusion, but "who are they to talk back to God if He chooses to act like that?" etc etc.
But what really irked me is that she also said "faith is a gift from God". For that moment, I believed it was a verse and nodded along. It seemed familiar. It lingered in my mind, though.. if the Scriptures truly said "faith is a gift from God", then I have to readjust my thinking and reconsider this issue.

I looked up the phrase later on. I was honestly quite certain that this was a verse. I really trust my teacher, and well, in no way am I insinuating that she was trying to convince me of anything in any secretive way. Calvinist or not, the Holy Spirit lives inside her, as it does me, and I trust her with so much!

However, I did not find this phrase at all. All I found was Ephesians 2:8-9, which I've unintentionally memorized from the very beginning of my Christian walk, hahaha. But this time, I referred to the Ancient Greek concordance.

Here is what is interesting, as I am sure many of you must have heard before.
Translated word-by-word, Ephesians 2:8 is "for by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; [it is] of God the gift". But, what does the "this" refer to?
In my teacher's interpretation and paraphrase of this verse, the word "this" refers to "faith".
However, the word "faith" is a feminine noun, while "this" is a neutral noun. If the word "this" referred exclusively to "faith", then "this" would be feminine, also.
That's unfamiliar for people who don't speak languages where words have genders- it's a weird thing, haha. I don't have to worry about gendered nouns when I'm studying Vietnamese, for example, But, I've studied Spanish for roughly 5 years, so I'm familiar with how this works.

For example, the word for "this" is "este" in Spanish. But the noun "thing", or "cosa" is feminine. So "this thing" is "esta cosa".

So, "this" does not refer to just faith in this context, nor does it refer to just grace, since "grace" is also a feminine noun here. Rather, the right interpretation of this verse is that "salvation by grace through faith" is not of ourselves. It is a gift of God. However, this does not mean that faith is not ours. It does not automatically mean that God spawns faith in our otherwise vacant and unbelieving minds, haha.

Yes, our faith is ours. But it's not like our faith is the object of our salvation. It's the instrument by which we can receive God's grace.

I love my teacher, and maybe sometime we can discuss this issue. It made me a bit sad, though, since I do not believe that her soteriological view is consistent with all of Scripture, and the Calvinist interpretation has caused me some grief in the past because of how (I believe) it conflicts with the character of God. The character of God is very precious to me. Of course, I want to be as teachable as possible. However God is, I will love Him, because I know He is good!
However, I do not betray my feelings easily, and I did not say anything to her at the time. I did not agree with anything I disagreed with, but I did not make any waves. After all, you could say that faith is a gift from God, just not in the sense that I knew she intended. After all, she was super indirect about everything. But I know these trains of thought like the back of my hand- just from wrestling with it and figuring it out myself- so I knew exactly what she was alluding to.
 
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maves

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I didn't post this to you. This post is for Bible Highlighter. But if you want to engage with me, that's fine.

I beg to differ. The Classical Arminian view is Total Depravity, nor Partial Depravity. Google it! Look up Roger Olson prominent exponent of the Classical Arminian position.

Great, I also hold this view. This is the historic Reformed view of total depravity.

Here's where we parts ways. Because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness! They don't want or desire God, or seek after him (Romans 3). They love the darkness and hate the light (John 3). In Romans men assemble images of mortal to worship, and they do honor or praise God, correct. Paul does say they are without excuse because God's divine power is on display all around us. But sinners do not want to honor God or praise him as God, right? They replace God with statues of mortal men, go figure, sound familiar? You'll be like gods the serpent said. God is lying to you!​

I will agree with you that everyone can hear the external call of the Gospel, but only the elect people of God will hear his internal call through the proclamation of the Gospel by the regeneration power of the Holy Spirit!

Great to hear this, God's Grace is Amazing, and only he alone can resurrect the dead. The dead cannot do nothing else, but play dead. Here a gem for you from one of my favorite theologian. And it's okay to give God all the glory and praise, not man!

The doctrine of total depravity reflects the Reformed viewpoint of original sin. That term—original sin—is often misunderstood in the popular arena. Some people assume that the term original sin must refer to the first sin—the original transgression that we’ve all copied in many different ways in our own lives, that is, the first sin of Adam and Eve. But that’s not what original sin has referred to historically in the church. Rather, the doctrine of original sin defines the consequences to the human race because of that first sin.

Virtually every church historically that has a creed or a confession has agreed that something very serious happened to the human race as a result of the first sin—that first sin resulted in original sin. That is, as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve, the entire human race fell, and our nature as human beings since the fall has been influenced by the power of evil. As David declared in the Old Testament, “Oh, God, I was born in sin, and in sin did my mother conceive me” (Ps. 51:5). He was not saying that it was sinful for his mother to have borne children; neither was he saying that he had done something evil by being born. Rather, he was acknowledging the human condition of fallenness—that condition that was part of the experience of his parents, a condition that he himself brought into this world. Therefore, original sin has to do with the fallen nature of mankind. The idea is that we are not sinners because we sin, but that we sin because we are sinners.

In the Reformed tradition, total depravity does not mean utter depravity. We often use the term total as a synonym for utter or for completely, so the notion of total depravity conjures up the idea that every human being is as bad as that person could possibly be. You might think of an archfiend of history such as Adolf Hitler and say there was absolutely no redeeming virtue in the man, but I suspect that he had some affection for his mother. As wicked as Hitler was, we can still conceive of ways in which he could have been even more wicked than he actually was. So the idea of total in total depravity doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person. The fallenness that captures and grips our human nature affects our bodies; that’s why we become ill and die. It affects our minds and our thinking; we still have the capacity to think, but the Bible says the mind has become darkened and weakened. The will of man is no longer in its pristine state of moral power. The will, according to the New Testament, is now in bondage. We are enslaved to the evil impulses and desires of our hearts. The body, the mind, the will, the spirit—indeed, the whole person—have been infected by the power of sin.

The doctrine of original sin defines the consequences to the human race because of that first sin.
I like to replace the term total depravity with my favorite designation, which is radical corruption. Ironically, the word radical has its roots in the Latin word for “root,” which is radix, and it can be translated root or core. The term radical has to do with something that permeates to the core of a thing. It’s not something that is tangential or superficial, lying on the surface. The Reformed view is that the effects of the fall extend or penetrate to the core of our being. Even the English word core actually comes from the Latin word cor, which means “heart.” That is, our sin is something that comes from our hearts. In biblical terms, that means it’s from the core or very center of our existence.

So what is required for us to be conformed to the image of Christ is not simply some small adjustments or behavioral modifications, but nothing less than renovation from the inside. We need to be regenerated, to be made over again, to be quickened by the power of the Spirit. The only way in which a person can escape this radical situation is by the Holy Spirit’s changing the core, the heart. However, even that change does not instantly vanquish sin. The complete elimination of sin awaits our glorification in heaven.
I will respond at another time! It's very late for me. Good night, and I hope to respond soon!
 
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ladodgers6

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However, I did not find this phrase at all. All I found was Ephesians 2:8-9, which I've unintentionally memorized from the very beginning of my Christian walk, hahaha. But this time, I referred to the Ancient Greek concordance.

Here is what is interesting, as I am sure many of you must have heard before.
Translated word-by-word, Ephesians 2:8 is "for by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; [it is] of God the gift". But, what does the "this" refer to?
In my teacher's interpretation and paraphrase of this verse, the word "this" refers to "faith".
However, the word "faith" is a feminine noun, while "this" is a neutral noun. If the word "this" referred exclusively to "faith", then "this" would be feminine, also.
That's unfamiliar for people who don't speak languages where words have genders- it's a weird thing, haha. I don't have to worry about gendered nouns when I'm studying Vietnamese, for example, But, I've studied Spanish for roughly 5 years, so I'm familiar with how this works.

For example, the word for "this" is "este" in Spanish. But the noun "thing", or "cosa" is feminine. So "this thing" is "esta cosa".

So, "this" does not refer to just faith in this context, nor does it refer to just grace, since "grace" is also a feminine noun here. Rather, the right interpretation of this verse is that "salvation by grace through faith" is not of ourselves. It is a gift of God. However, this does not mean that faith is not ours. It does not automatically mean that God spawns faith in our otherwise vacant and unbelieving minds, haha.

Yes, our faith is ours. But it's not like our faith is the object of our salvation. It's the instrument by which we can receive God's grace.

I love my teacher, and maybe sometime we can discuss this issue. It made me a bit sad, though, since I do not believe that her soteriological view is consistent with all of Scripture, and the Calvinist interpretation has caused me some grief in the past because of how (I believe) it conflicts with the character of God. The character of God is very precious to me. Of course, I want to be as teachable as possible. However God is, I will love Him, because I know He is good!
However, I do not betray my feelings easily, and I did not say anything to her at the time. I did not agree with anything I disagreed with, but I did not make any waves. After all, you could say that faith is a gift from God, just not in the sense that I knew she intended. After all, she was super indirect about everything. But I know these trains of thought like the back of my hand- just from wrestling with it and figuring it out myself- so I knew exactly what she was alluding to.
If I may maves, instead of plucking out one passage, read the run of the passages. You mentioned to me before that hold the view, "However, I affirm that people sin and are unable to redeem themselves by any of their own efforts. They are totally depraved, innately corrupted, and completely sinful!" Also remember that the problem here is that the heart is deceitful above all things.

As we discussed before about Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. But in natural revelation no one can be saved. It's through special revelation through the proclamation of the Gospel, that faith comes by hearing through the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. In other words, it's an internal calling to come forth out of the tomb, like Lazarus.

When Christ told those Jews who were trying to trap Christ into committing blasphemy, they ask Jesus to tell them if he is the Christ, and Christ replies, by saying, I have told you, but you not believe, because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and they follow me (John 10).
I and the Father Are One​

22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Here's more scripture.
You Are of Your Father the Devil​

39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

1 Cor. 2:14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Sinners must be made alive by the Spirit, prior to believing, or else they will not hear God words. They will be spiritually discern, for the carnal cannot understand spiritual things of God.

Which maves why God gives the free gift of Faith. Read the whole run of the passages, I can help you if you need my help. Because Paul depicts our fallen plight prior to verses 8, 9. Pray for understanding, and see how Paul leads to verses 8 and 9. Because all of it is the sheer Grace and Mercy of God who saves the ungodly dead sinners.

Know what you believe and why you believe it.​
 
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BBAS 64

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I don't defend the Arminian view. I affirm Eternal Security! Believers have passed from death into life (John 5) and are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1).

But your first premise is incorrect. Arminians do not affirm Total Depravity. They affirm Partial Depravity. Thus, your conclusion is unfounded.

However, I affirm that people sin and are unable to redeem themselves by any of their own efforts. They are totally depraved, innately corrupted, and completely sinful!

This does not mean, though, that they are (1) unable to know God's righteousness or (2) hear the call of the Gospel and repent!

(1) People are responsible, or as Romans 1 puts it, "without excuse". People know God, for "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them". Yes, we are born with a sinful nature, but we are not born suppressing the truth. Rather, through our unrighteousness, we come to suppress the truth. God is patient and "long-suffering" with us, but if we are stubborn, keep hardening our hearts, and resist the Holy Spirit (As Stephen rebukes the crowd in Acts 7:51: "You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"), He will give them up to their own debased mind and hardened heart.
No one seeks for God, but God can be "clearly perceived" in the world He has created and especially in the person of Jesus Christ, for "in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily".

Good Day, Maves

The general revelation of God in creation is enough knowledge even when actively suppressed to condemn. People born of the flesh always suppress the truth if God because he is righteous and we born are not. All can perceive God ( light) and people hate light, therefore they are enemies of God, and Jesus being light was killed. They do not seek PS 14 :

Paul’s inspired infallible commentary of Ps 14

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written (PS 14:1): “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

Yes men who have a (stone) heart that is wicked love darkness as a result do no good, nor can they, because their deeds are evil.


(2) Everyone can hear the command of Jesus to repent and believe, for "the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people"!! Now, let us proclaim, "let the wicked forsake their ways / and the unrighteous their thoughts. / Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them, / and to our God, for he will freely pardon".
Jesus Himself has said "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself".

Praise the Lord, for He has drawn me, too, and He will raise me up on the Last Day! I do not know everything about how I came to faith, but all that I know is that God drew me to Himself, I have faith in Christ's sacrifice, and I am justified by faith in Him, not by any work of my own. Praise God!

I humbly learn and seek to know more and more about our great God. Praise Him!

I hope this was helpful!

They can hear and to them that are perishing it is foolishness, it is light and they hate it. If you suppose they all can hear why does Jesus say "them who have ears let the hear?

The commands to repent and believe are part of Gods law to which they do not and cannot submit. They do not because they can not, they can not because they do not.

Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

In regeneration God put His Spirit in us it dwells in us and He causes us to obey his commands (repent and believe), the new heart new desires.


Eze 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.


Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

The giving of the Father to the Son results directly to 3 things.


1.They come

2.He does not cast them out

3.He does the will of the Father He loose none of the given, and he raises them up.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The Drawing of the Father is needed to overcome the total inability to come.

"No one can"… unless


Thanks be to God that he gave you to the Son in His doing He ensured you would come, and His Son will raise you up according to the will of the Father!

The Prince if Preachers said it this way:

"A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved." - C.H Spurgeon

Salvation is of the Lord!

In Him,

Bill
 
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Okay, I can resonate with you, because I used to be a Classical Arminian.

It is not uncommon for Calvinists to say this. But I believe if you believed as I did, you would have the knowledge of Scripture to reject Calvinism because it is unbiblical view of God and how He operates. There are many verses that teach men having free will in the Bible. God argued with Cain to do good and not sin. God tells the Israelites that he sets before them death and life and He desires them to choose life. Jesus desired to gather Jerusalem to Him (like a mother hen gathers its chicks beneath its wings) but they (the Israelites) would not allow Him to do so. There are many things like this in Scripture that one has to ignore if they want to believe in Calvinism.


But please show me where in Scripture can I find this Prevenient Grace (Arminian View of it),
While I may hold to certain truths in this doctrine, I do not like the term “Prevenient Grace” because God’s grace in relation to man is dealing with salvation. I prefer to describe it as: Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given an opportunity or opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).

Romans 1:20-21 says we are without excuse of God’s existence. Romans 1:20-21 says, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

We do have verses like Lydia’s heart being opened (Acts 16:14), and the Spirit convicting men of sin (John 16:8-9).
Yet, at the same time, God tried to reason with Cain to do good and he didn’t. Why would God reason with Cain if he was totally depraved and unable to do good? This is why I don’t believe in Total Depravity.

Christ draws all men unto Himself (John 12:32). This is at the heart of the drawing that God does for all men.
God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).
Granted, there are exceptions to the rule on this. Those who worship the beast in the future did not even have their names written in the Lamb’s book of life since the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8) (Revelation 17:8).

But yes. I do believe God‘s work does need to be done upon a person’s heart in order for them to believe. This is not irresitible grace. This is an illumination of the truth to a person and it is up to them and their own free will to choose to decide to accept the Lord Jesus or reject Him.

full



and the biblical teaching of Partial Regeneration?
Not sure what you mean by this.
I know Calvinists believe in a regeneration that proceeds faith.
But I do not see that in Scripture.
The Bible says, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;” (Acts 3:19).

To be converted is the regeneration.

”By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.“ (Romans 5:2).

We gain access to God’s grace by faith. This is why I reject the term Prevenient Grace. Grace is accessed by faith and grace is not accessed until we have faith. For by grace we are saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).


So when I was an Arminian, nobody could answer this for me. Both Calvinism & Arminianism agree upon Total Depravity.​
I am not technically Arminian because I do not agree with Total Depravity, and nor do I agree with the term or name Prevenient Grace.

So, the next logical outcome is not Prevenient Grace (Arminian View), but Regeneration (Calvinist View). So, if we are dead in sins and trespasses, as scripture teaches we all are.​
When the Bible says we are dead in trespasses and sin, that does not mean Christ does not draw all men today. Again, Romans 1:20 teaches that men are without excuse that there is a God. So the idea that men are just totally clueless about God’s existence and that they will get off the hook in accepting Him as their Savior because they did not have a chance or opportunity is insanity in the highest order. The whole purpose of the Judgment is to show that mankind did wrong by not accepting Jesus as their Savior and in following Him. it is why they will all bow the knee to Jesus in the End. It makes no sense to burn the wicked for all eternity for a choice that they were not capable of making. That would be like kicking a dog across the room like a football because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem on account of the fact that it is sick. One does not punt their dog like a football just because it lays hot piles of steamy goodness on their white carpets if it is sick and it cannot help itself. That’s what you want me to believe about God. This is insanity in the highest order. One has to think wrongfully about GOD and His good ways to believe such nonsense.

No offense, but Calvinism is sillier than believing in a flat Earth. It’s just ridiculous. Sorry. One has to twist and change tons of verses to believe in Calvinism and they also have to bury their moral compass, as well.
 
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BibleBeliever1611

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Do you agree with this statement below?

But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affection or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing, and doing.​
You are just making things overly complicated. Could you not simplify all that into one sentence?
 
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Carl Emerson

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No offense, but Calvinism is sillier than believing in a flat Earth. It’s just ridiculous. Sorry. One has to twist and change tons of verses to believe in Calvinism and they also have to bury their moral compass, as well.

No offence ???
 
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@maves

The only way a person believes Calvinism is if…

(a) One has a mindset or predisposition in desiring God to be unjustly forceful,​
and they falsely read certain verses in the wrong way (Which are not many).​
(b) One has learned the teachings from the Canons of Dort, Calvinistic writings, or Calvinistic preachers.​

Without these two things, a person would not believe in Calvinism. They would just believe the Bible as a whole plainly, and they would not try and fight and explain away the verses that refutes Calvinism like 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Jonah 3:6-10, Genesis 4:6-7, and Matthew 23:37. There are more verses that refutes Calvinism than any verses that appears to support it. Only Romans 9 sounds like Calvinism at first glance and this is easily refuted if one reads the end of the chapter and reads it in context to the other chapters. But because certain popular religious men in history believed it, they are impressed. I would rather believe in the Word of God. I am not going to be held accountable to God if I did not believe John Calvin. Jesus basically says in John 12:48 if we do not receive His words, those words by Him will judge us on the last day. So we have to receive the words of Jesus and not Calvinists.

However, if a person has been conditioned heavily by Calvinism, it is hard for one to escape its grasp.
Once God reveals the truth about Calvinism to a person, they will not want to have anything to do with it anymore.
They will see Calvinism for what it is. God’s Word will reign supreme over it, if indeed that person truly values the truth of what His Word actually says. If truth of God’s Word is not important to a person, then they will just keep believing in Calvinism. Yes, I know Calvinists have made the claim they are for the Bible, but anyone can say that these days. We are told in Scripture to test all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21). Are there people who appear to be loving and good in Calvinism? Sure. But truth is not determined this way. God’s Word is our ultimate standard.
 
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BBAS 64

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@maves

The only way a person believes Calvinism is if…

(a) One has a mindset or predisposition in desiring God to be unjustly forceful,​
and they falsely read certain verses in the wrong way (Which are not many).​
(b) One has learned the teachings from the Canons of Dort, Calvinistic writings, or Calvinistic preachers.​

Without these two things, a person would not believe in Calvinism. They would just believe the Bible as a whole plainly, and they would not try and fight and explain away the verses that refutes Calvinism like 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Jonah 3:6-10, Genesis 4:6-7, and Matthew 23:37. There are more verses that refutes Calvinism than any verses that appears to support it. Only Romans 9 sounds like Calvinism at first glance and this is easily refuted if one reads the end of the chapter and reads it in context to the other chapters. But because certain popular religious men in history believed it, they are impressed. I would rather believe in the Word of God. I am not going to be held accountable to God if I did not believe John Calvin. Jesus basically says in John 12:48 if we do not receive His words, those words by Him will judge us on the last day. So we have to receive the words of Jesus and not Calvinists.

However, if a person has been conditioned heavily by Calvinism, it is hard for one to escape its grasp.
Once God reveals the truth about Calvinism to a person, they will not want to have anything to do with it anymore.
They will see Calvinism for what it is. God’s Word will reign supreme over it, if indeed that person truly values the truth of what His Word actually says. If truth of God’s Word is not important to a person, then they will just keep believing in Calvinism. Yes, I know Calvinists have made the claim they are for the Bible, but anyone can say that these days. We are told in Scripture to test all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21). Are there people who appear to be loving and good in Calvinism? Sure. But truth is not determined this way. God’s Word is our ultimate standard.

Good Day,

Or we could stick with the Evangelical Historic Christian answer:

"Speaking of Arminians, Whitfield said, 'We are all born Arminians.' It is grace that turns us into Calvinists, grace that makes Christians of us, grace that makes us free, and makes us know our standing in Christ Jesus." ~ Charles H. Spurgeon

In Him,

Bill
 
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fhansen

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Hello everyone!
I am really struggling with the concepts in Calvinism.
About a month ago, I broke down as I considered the conclusions that Calvinism led me to. I even cried at the kitchen table considering it. I cannot think of any way that this group of ideas does not lead to the conclusion that God is the author of sin, which He is NOT. God does not tempt any man to sin.
But according to Calvinism, all men are not just born spiritually dead, they cannot even recognize any goodness to be found in the Gospel unless God regenerates them first. I am so confused by this- did not Adam and Eve come to know good from evil by partaking of the fruit?
In no way am I insinuating that they are naturally inclined to seek God or can attain the righteousness that God requires. They need God's grace to be reconciled to Him. But I thought that God invites all men, but only some accept the free gift of salvation.

God has made known to men his law (through the Mosaic law to Jews and the natural conscience to Gentiles [through which they become "a law unto themselves"]), and through the incarnation, Jesus Christ- His perfect sinless life and His offer to bear the sins of men and become a ransom for them. So, all men are without excuse. Everyone, therefore, has the ability to repent; God has revealed Himself to everyone. So, if someone does not repent, is it not their fault?

From what I have understood, the fault is on mankind for rejecting God. But according to Calvinism, it is God that actively chooses who will be saved (and, by consequence, who will not). So, was it God who first made Adam and Eve sin in the Garden, then? Calvin himself has said, "God, in a secret and marvellous way, justly wills, the things which men unjustly do." . . . "Although God and the devil will the same thing: they do so in an utterly different manner." The last quotation is just profoundly disgusting to me for reasons I don't think I even have to explain. The former quotation also disgusts me because it contradicts the Bible (I believe so, at least), and puts the blame on God. I do not deny that God uses the sin of people for his glorious purpose! Because God is in control of everything and can even use sinners for the greater good. God is completely sovereign and uses all things for good.

I have agreed with the traditional Southern Baptist view of predestination. I affirm total depravity to the extent the Bible does (men are totally depraved but can still recognize their need for a savior) and eternal security absolutely. With the rest, I hold to a typical "Arminian" view.

I also just feel an extreme aversion to agree with Calvin after taking a look at his life. I've read historical articles about him that weren't even trying to paint him in a bad light (from secular sources!), and I was appalled to hear about his life. I don't know, I don't like taking theology from someone who burns his theological opponents at the stake (AND did it in the name of our Savior. It's not like he wasn't a professing believer at the time. I am simply examining his fruit. I apologize if I put it a bit too harshly, but that seems to be what happened).

I just want to worship God, though. I will always thank Him for what He has done- saving me by grace through Christ's sacrifice on my behalf. I just want to worship Him, however He is like.

I worship Him because He is love. He is just and merciful. These are things I know from the Bible, and I trust His word.

I am someone who struggles with doubt, though. This really makes me doubt sometimes. What if I am wrong after all, and the Calvinists are more correct about God than I am?

I feel tempted to say that I would not worship the "God of Calvinism", just because I know God is not unjust. But would this condemn me? This is the thing I am most worried about, and the reason why I write this. That's why I am asking you all. I am really struggling here.

What I want to do is just affirm what is in the Bible and not take sides. Not try to figure everything out. But, it is in my personality to desire to figure everything out. Whenever people describe me, that is the first attribute they refer to. People describe me as someone who cannot rest until I know all I can, someone who investigates and needs answers.

I am content with just affirming what the Bible says. But if I say "if God is the God that Calvinism proposes, I do not want Him" is that wrong? Right now, I am willing to accept Him, even that way. I will still find Him merciful. But I just don't want to accept Him reluctantly. I want to accept Him with my full heart. I love God, I really do. He is the author of all good things. He created me and made me in His image. He gave me a purpose in life. Even when I messed up, He had mercy on me. Even in that sorry state, He sets before me good works for me to walk in. He says that I can be His child. Everything about Him is beautiful. But I am struggling here. I know it is just grace through faith that saves me. I know I am saved. But if I knock down and refute how Calvinists portray Him, and I am wrong, will He say to me, "depart from me, I never knew you"? Because I would be cursing Him to His face if I did that. And I love Him, I don't want to do that.

That is my honest question. Please help me. I am really struggling with this.
The entire bible from Genesis through Revelation virtually screams, as an appeal, for man to leave the darkness, to turn back to God, while providing the knowledge and the grace to do that very thing. This is a patient work of His over centuries culminating in the complete revelation with the coming of His Son in the fullness of time when man might finally be ready to begin to receive that brightest of light. Man can still say "no" to that grace, to God, but He'll always seek to turn and draw us towards Himself. And unless He does so we remain hopelessly lost.

And so man still has something inside to appeal to. While man cannot turn himself to God or please Him on his own, fallen man still retains a spark of life, of His image within, and, although dimmed and obscured, he has a conscience; God's law is written in his heart. Man's will is not totally depraved-God seeks to draw us into greater and greater rectitude, or righteousness IOW, into greater and greater alignment with His own perfect will-for our highest good.
 
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Oh I'm fully aware. I also believe that he used a strawman of Calvinism, but nonetheless, he did respond directly to me, so I responded back.

I don't want to die on any theological hills, but stick to Christ's example of humility. He is my Savior, after all, and I want to love Him by following His commands. I think my response to BH just now was something everyone can agree with.
I want to take a "mere Christian" approach and affirm what the Bible says. I can have my own theories about how it all links together (after research, I take the Molinist view on this issue), but those are much less important matters than what God has directly revealed. Soon (after the return of our Savior), God may reveal to us many more things, including the exact dynamic of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, but while I can theorize, I do not claim any superior knowledge. For now, instead of pointing to my own theory, I will point to the Scriptures; there is much work to be done on this Earth and we don't have time for fights based on a matter of second importance.

However, it becomes difficult if someone says man is not responsible for his sin. That would place the blame on God when the Scriptures say that we are without excuse. We are condemned because we are responsible and have fallen short.

Agreeing on that, we can join in the work of the proclamation of the Gospel, and tell others how we can be liberated from sin and its condemnation through the loving work of the Messiah.

God bless you <3
Here is another reason why you should run far away from anyone teaching Calvinism:

John Calvin had men killed when they disagreed with him theologically.


John MacArthur says John Calvin was his hero.
Granted, I think MacArthur has a more tulip colored image of John Calvin.
 
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Good Day,

Or we could stick with the Evangelical Historic Christian answer:

"Speaking of Arminians, Whitfield said, 'We are all born Arminians.' It is grace that turns us into Calvinists, grace that makes Christians of us, grace that makes us free, and makes us know our standing in Christ Jesus." ~ Charles H. Spurgeon

In Him,

Bill

Spurgeon said, “Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.”

This is false.

The gospel is this:

1 “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Who am I going to believe? Spurgeon? or God’s Holy Word (the Bible)?

I choose the Bible.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I once was lost and now I'm found, was blind and now I see....

How can I therefore believe anything but His Grace saved me.

Insisting that human effort or human will saves you is adding to the complete work of the Cross.
 
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@maves

We could not have the faith without God giving us the Bible (Romans 10:17).
We could not have the faith without the Spirit convicting us of our sin (John 16:8-9).
We could not have the faith without Jesus knocking on the door of our heart or without His drawing (Revelation 3:20) (John 12:32).

Yet, we also know God does not force us to believe, either.
I believe that after God illuminates the truth of His Word to us, we have a free will choice to either accept Him as our Savior or reject Him.

Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

For the moment you take away free will is the moment you make God responsible for directly creating evil and sin. However, there is no darkness in God at all. God created free willed beings that made the decision to be evil and to sin. God did not force Adam and Eve to rebel. They had a choice to either choose life or to choose death. They chose death. Not because God wanted them to. It was because they wanted to choose death.
 
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ladodgers6

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It is not uncommon for Calvinists to say this. But I believe if you believed as I did, you would have the knowledge of Scripture to reject Calvinism because it is unbiblical view of God and how He operates. There are many verses that teach men having free will in the Bible. God argued with Cain to do good and not sin. God tells the Israelites that he sets before them death and life and He desires them to choose life. Jesus desired to gather Jerusalem to Him (like a mother hen gathers its chicks beneath its wings) but they (the Israelites) would not allow Him to do so. There are many things like this in Scripture that one has to ignore if they want to believe in Calvinism.
As I said before, I can resonate with you, because I fought hard to refute Classical Calvinism (I am not a Hyper-Calvinist). Classical Calvinism does not deny Free-Will. Sinners choose willingly to sin, they are not coerced to sin. But by nature sinners sin, this is the fallen disposition of a fallen humanity in Adam. Having a weak view of the gravity of sin leads to a weak view of God's Amazing Grace!​
While I may hold to certain truths in this doctrine, I do not like the term “Prevenient Grace” because God’s grace in relation to man is dealing with salvation. I prefer to describe it as: Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given an opportunity or opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).
Well there's a lot to address here. First you say for the Majority; why not for "ALL"? Second, reading this I get the impression that you do not have a view that God has a Plan of Redemption. But rather, Christ only made Salvation possible. So, I'll ask you, does does Unrestricted Initial Drawing & Illumination accomplish if anything? I ask because the Arminian view Prevenient Grace, is not effectual in saving anyone. Though ambiguous and perplexing teach that Prevenient Grace is illuminated. How? If a sinner is illuminated by God's truth in mind, heart and Spirit. Why would anyone choose to reject it, knowing the consequences of that decision?​

Romans 1:20-21 says we are without excuse of God’s existence. Romans 1:20-21 says, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”​
This does not help your position, but on the contrary, it highlights that fallen man does not want or desire God!

21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

This depicts sinners fallen disposition. Doesn't this sound familiar? That God is not given honor or praise, but rather fallen men seek to give glory to images resembling mortal man. 'You be like gods', the serpent said to Adam!​
We do have verses like Lydia’s heart being opened (Acts 16:14), and the Spirit convicting men of sin (John 16:8-9).
Yet, at the same time, God tried to reason with Cain to do good and he didn’t. Why would God reason with Cain if he was totally depraved and unable to do good? This is why I don’t believe in Total Depravity.​
I have already address this before. God will not lower his standard of holiness to allow us into heaven. Nor will he do away with His Holy character and will (Law). Just because we are not able to fulfill it. It's like saying to a serial killer, since you cannot abide by the Law not to kill, it doesn't apply to you anymore. Your view and the common consensus about Total Depravity is misrepresented. Total Depravity doesn't mean that we can be as bad as we can possibly be, rather it's that sin has affect every faculty of our being. There is no part that hasn't been affect by sin. It's not that only a part of us is broken, but the whole person from head to toe has been affected by sin. The core being the heart & mind.

Paul illustrates our fallen condition in Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

So is there anyone excluded in what Paul says above?

Christ draws all men unto Himself (John 12:32). This is at the heart of the drawing that God does for all men.​
Well Sir, this is very misleading. Jesus cursed the physical descendants of Abraham, and called them the children of the devil (John 8). And he finished the admonishing by saying, "47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”​

Another example is John 10, where the Jews were trying to trick and trap Jesus in blasphemy. Here's the interaction:

If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

There's so much too unpack here, but I will point out a couple of things. Jesus said to them that they do not believe BECAUSE they not among his sheep. Jesus did not say because you do not believe you are not among sheep, but on the contrary. Jesus continues by saying that his sheep hear his voice and follow. That these are the ones whom the Father has given to Christ to save. So, in John 12:32, these are the "ALL" (sheep), that will be called to Christ!
God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).
Granted, there are exceptions to the rule on this. Those who worship the beast in the future did not even have their names written in the Lamb’s book of life since the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8) (Revelation 17:8).

But yes. I do believe God‘s work does need to be done upon a person’s heart in order for them to believe. This is not irresitible grace. This is an illumination of the truth to a person and it is up to them and their own free will to choose to decide to accept the Lord Jesus or reject Him.​
Interesting, so you are saying that a person needs to be regenerated prior to believing? Please explain how this works in your paradigm? If God's work is resistible in your position, how is one saved? In your position why does one believe while another rejects God, if both receive the same amount of Unrestricted Initial Illumination?​
Not sure what you mean by this.
I know Calvinists believe in a regeneration that proceeds faith.
But I do not see that in Scripture.​
Well, think about it. You do not hold to Regeneration prior to Faith. But somehow you say that something must come prior to believing. You believe this why? You also believe that God's Grace can be resisted, which is not scriptural. But you hold to Unrestricted Initial Illumination that does what exactly? Does this partially regenerated sinners heart and mind to understand God word? This is where as a former Arminian I had major issues with. Does this Unrestricted Initial Illumination place the sinner somewhere between Life and death to make a decision, that determines their fate? What do you mean by Unrestricted Illumination? Because no matter how you try to explain it, you are going to run into huge problems. I'll show you when you reply to this.​
The Bible says, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;” (Acts 3:19).

To be converted is the regeneration.

”By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.“ (Romans 5:2).

We gain access to God’s grace by faith. This is why I reject the term Prevenient Grace. Grace is accessed by faith and grace is not accessed until we have faith. For by grace we are saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).​
Okay, I do not disagree with this. But you will hear this? God's sheep or those not among God's sheep?
I am not technically Arminian because I do not agree with Total Depravity, and nor do I agree with the term or name Prevenient Grace.​
Well, you have 2 Mount Everest to climb over without ropes, gear, a guide, in sub-zero climate. Because both are Biblical teachings.
When the Bible says we are dead in trespasses and sin, that does not mean Christ does not draw all men today. Again, Romans 1:20 teaches that men are without excuse that there is a God. So the idea that men are just totally clueless about God’s existence and that they will get off the hook in accepting Him as their Savior because they did not have a chance or opportunity is insanity in the highest order. The whole purpose of the Judgment is to show that mankind did wrong by not accepting Jesus as their Savior and in following Him. it is why they will all bow the knee to Jesus in the End. It makes no sense to burn the wicked for all eternity for a choice that they were not capable of making. That would be like kicking a dog across the room like a football because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem on account of the fact that it is sick. One does not punt their dog like a football just because it lays hot piles of steamy goodness on their white carpets if it is sick and it cannot help itself. That’s what you want me to believe about God. This is insanity in the highest order. One has to think wrongfully about GOD and His good ways to believe such nonsense.

No offense, but Calvinism is sillier than believing in a flat Earth. It’s just ridiculous. Sorry. One has to twist and change tons of verses to believe in Calvinism and they also have to bury their moral compass, as well.​
It's only your opinion. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it false. Twisting Biblical texts to fits ones conjecture to me is not only silly, but a grave error.
 
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@maves

We could not have the faith without God giving us the Bible (Romans 10:17).
We could not have the faith without the Spirit convicting us of our sin (John 16:8-9).
We could not have the faith without Jesus knocking on the door of our heart or without His drawing (Revelation 3:20) (John 12:32).

Yet, we also know God does not force us to believe, either.
I believe that after God illuminates the truth of His Word to us, we have a free will choice to either accept Him as our Savior or reject Him.

Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

For the moment you take away free will is the moment you make God responsible for directly creating evil and sin. However, there is no darkness in God at all. God created free willed beings that made the decision to be evil and to sin. God did not force Adam and Eve to rebel. They had a choice to either choose life or to choose death. They chose death. Not because God wanted them to. It was because they wanted to choose death.
Good Day,

No body denies that Man has the ability to choose (freewill).

What one can not deny is that the will is effected by things that we can not control and external to us. Also that the will is influenced and informed by both the minds and the heart of man.


Man always will choose that which he desires and does so freely. Adam and Eve did choose to sin because that is what they wanted.

No one can choose that which they do not desire/ want.

Men love darkness and hate light so freely they choose darkness because they love it and desire it, they can do no other.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Spurgeon said, “Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.”

This is false.

The gospel is this:

1 “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Who am I going to believe? Spurgeon? or God’s Holy Word (the Bible)?

I choose the Bible.
Good Day,

If you are going to quote someone at least give some context, with the source.



The prince of Preachers:



"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."—C. H. Spurgeon

"What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor."
 
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